Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(06-27-2023, 11:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-26-2023, 11:25 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Oh man, you really have had absolutely no control or power in your life have you, this forum really is all you got huh. LOL, transgressions. I felt that cringe deep in my soul reading this one.

I'm sorry, forgot my audience. I'll use smaller words for you next time SweetDougie.

I still feel the cringe from you using the word "Transgressions" over a false claim you made on a forum occupied by approximately 30 active users.

At this point I almost want to be banned from this forum, it's bad enough with the censorship but the absolute ignorance showcased by the two most active moderators on this board makes me feel embarrased to even claim I have an account here.

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(07-01-2023, 06:48 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Good scenarios.  I would reverse three and two as I think Little is more likely to swing before moving to G, but it’s a coin toss, really.

Honestly in a perfect world, 2 of them become bookend tackles and one of them becomes the Guard we desperately need. 

Unlikely, and I'm not sure who would go where.. but outside of dumping Cam for some picks i'd love for this to be the alternative.

(07-02-2023, 03:05 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2023, 11:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, forgot my audience. I'll use smaller words for you next time SweetDougie.

I still feel the cringe from you using the word "Transgressions" over a false claim you made on a forum occupied by approximately 30 active users.

At this point I almost want to be banned from this forum, it's bad enough with the censorship but the absolute ignorance showcased by the two most active moderators on this board makes me feel embarrased to even claim I have an account here.

---

(07-01-2023, 06:48 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Good scenarios.  I would reverse three and two as I think Little is more likely to swing before moving to G, but it’s a coin toss, really.

Honestly in a perfect world, 2 of them become bookend tackles and one of them becomes the Guard we desperately need. 

Unlikely, and I'm not sure who would go where.. but outside of dumping Cam for some picks i'd love for this to be the alternative.

Lol, ok roomie.

(07-02-2023, 03:05 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2023, 11:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, forgot my audience. I'll use smaller words for you next time SweetDougie.

I still feel the cringe from you using the word "Transgressions" over a false claim you made on a forum occupied by approximately 30 active users.

At this point I almost want to be banned from this forum, it's bad enough with the censorship but the absolute ignorance showcased by the two most active moderators on this board makes me feel embarrased to even claim I have an account here.

---

(07-01-2023, 06:48 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Good scenarios.  I would reverse three and two as I think Little is more likely to swing before moving to G, but it’s a coin toss, really.

Honestly in a perfect world, 2 of them become bookend tackles and one of them becomes the Guard we desperately need. 

Unlikely, and I'm not sure who would go where.. but outside of dumping Cam for some picks i'd love for this to be the alternative.

You could impose a self ban and fix everything for everyone involved

(07-02-2023, 12:40 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2023, 03:05 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I still feel the cringe from you using the word "Transgressions" over a false claim you made on a forum occupied by approximately 30 active users.

At this point I almost want to be banned from this forum, it's bad enough with the censorship but the absolute ignorance showcased by the two most active moderators on this board makes me feel embarrased to even claim I have an account here.

---

Honestly in a perfect world, 2 of them become bookend tackles and one of them becomes the Guard we desperately need. 

Unlikely, and I'm not sure who would go where.. but outside of dumping Cam for some picks i'd love for this to be the alternative.

Lol, ok roomie.

Lol imagine thinking i'm lying about having a roommate, not to mention most of the things he said/believed about the team completely differ from my own. Why would I create an alt account just to go against my own opinions? That'd be a little weird.

(07-02-2023, 10:53 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2023, 12:40 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, ok roomie.

Lol imagine thinking i'm lying about having a roommate, not to mention most of the things he said/believed about the team completely differ from my own. Why would I create an alt account just to go against my own opinions? That'd be a little weird.

Like your months-long attempt at rehab hasn't been cuckoo for cocoa puffs? It's kinda sad what you've tried to do to justify your atrocious takes.

(07-02-2023, 11:25 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2023, 10:53 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Lol imagine thinking i'm lying about having a roommate, not to mention most of the things he said/believed about the team completely differ from my own. Why would I create an alt account just to go against my own opinions? That'd be a little weird.

Like your months-long attempt at rehab hasn't been cuckoo for cocoa puffs? It's kinda sad what you've tried to do to justify your atrocious takes.

I stand by all of my "Atrocious takes" The problem with you and the other senior citizen is that what I said, vs what you claim I said are completely different things. 


But i'm not going to list off what I said for the 1,000th time, you already know you're wrong and nothing I say is going to change your mind because you're one of those people who wouldn't accept being wrong even if it cost you your life. 

Pure ignorance.


Also what rehab are we talking about? I could careless what is thought of me by a bunch of elderly folk on a practically dead message board. If I cared about my "Reputation" on this forum i'd act like the other posters who blindly follow/agree with yourself and others like the hivemind culture you try so desperately to create.

(07-04-2023, 12:50 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2023, 11:25 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Like your months-long attempt at rehab hasn't been cuckoo for cocoa puffs? It's kinda sad what you've tried to do to justify your atrocious takes.

I stand by all of my "Atrocious takes" The problem with you and the other senior citizen is that what I said, vs what you claim I said are completely different things. 


But i'm not going to list off what I said for the 1,000th time, you already know you're wrong and nothing I say is going to change your mind because you're one of those people who wouldn't accept being wrong even if it cost you your life. 

Pure ignorance.

Lol, you didn't stand by your takes; you've tried to pretend that you had a different take than you did. You refuse to accept accountability for what you thought, believed, and posted for months. Then you want to act like the people who remind you of that garbage are the ones who were wrong. Spin it however you want in your attempt to make you the good guy; we know what you did. And we always will. You were given the opportunity for a Mea Culpa (that means admit your mistake btw), but instead you just keep digging yourself in further and further. Because everything you just accused me of is exactly what you are (we call that Projection fyi).

Accept accountability for what you thought?  Sounds a bit Maoist, mate. It’s just a football forum, remember.

If this group plays well, given what we have stacking up @ the skill positions, I think this offense could be special!

(07-04-2023, 05:56 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]If this group plays well, given what we have stacking up @ the skill positions, I think this offense could be special!

I’m right there with you. I can’t remember this many legit offensive weapons since the 1999 season. 

We added Bigsby and Ridley to an offense that had a 4,000 yard passer, 1,000 yard receiver and a 1,000 yard rusher and a TE that broke the all time franchise single season receiving yards for a TE.

(07-04-2023, 05:21 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Accept accountability for what you thought?  Sounds a bit Maoist, mate. It’s just a football forum, remember.

Yes, if you're going to spam the board for months with a trash take then you should accept accountability when proven wrong. No one really cares if you make a bad call, but to annoy the [BLEEP] out of everyone with it then pretend it never happened? Nah, sack up and be a man. He could say, "yeah, I was wrong" and it would be fine. He wants to say "I was still right because I didnt mean what I said, or you misunderstood, and I meant something else, I was always a Trevor fan and knew he could do it", that's the issue.

(07-04-2023, 09:42 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-04-2023, 05:56 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]If this group plays well, given what we have stacking up @ the skill positions, I think this offense could be special!

I’m right there with you. I can’t remember this many legit offensive weapons since the 1999 season. 

We added Bigsby and Ridley to an offense that had a 4,000 yard passer, 1,000 yard receiver and a 1,000 yard rusher and a TE that broke the all time franchise single season receiving yards for a TE.

(Empnasis added)

Hmmm....wheels in my head are turning. 


A player for player comparison might me warranted.

QB:  !999 Mark Brunell vs. 2023 Trevor Lawrence-I'd give the edge to Trevor Lawrence.  Brunell had good mobility, though not quite as good as he was pre 1997 knee injury.  He had a good arm, threw a good deep ball and was a good leader with a 6-1 frame.    Trevor Lawrence has better mobility with a 6-6 frame.  He has a stronger arm, throwing good passes at all three levels.  I think he's better in the red zone than Brunell.  This is his second year in the offense.  I expect his numbers, which surpassed anything Brunell did as a Jaguar, to be even better this year.

RB:  1999-Fred Taylor and James Stewart vs. 2023 Travis Etienne and Tank Bigsby.  -Edge:  199 Fred Taylor and James Stewart.  Though Taylor was out much of the year due to injury, he was still far more explosive than Travis Etienne was last year, and Etienne was explosive.  But Etienne doesn't seem to have DT's long distance speed.  James Stewart had good size and seemed a little stiff, but he had his moments and was very good in the red zone.  Bigsby is yet unproven.

WR:1999 Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell & Willie Jackson  vs 203  Christian Kirk, Zay Jones, Calvin Ridley-This one is tougher then you might think.  From a speed perspective, I'd give the edge to the 2023 group.  All three are capable of getting deep.  Route running goes to the 1999 group.  The 2023 group runs good routes, as does the 1999 group.  I think if you are looking at just the two starters, the 1999 group would have the edge.  Going three WRs, I'd give the edge to 2023.

TE:1999 Kyle Brady vs. 2023 Evan Engram-Blocking would go to Brady.  Receiving goes to Engram.  He creates more mismatches and gets more separation on his routes than Brady did.  Better hands, too.  Even though Brady had his career year, he was known for a lot of drops.

LT:  Tony Boselli & Ben Coleman vs 2023 Cam Robinson/Walker Little/Anton Harrison-The 1999 duo gets the edge here.  While this year's group goes three deep (two of which are proven at LT in the NFL), the 1999 duo of Hall of Famer Tony Boselli and Ben Coleman gets the edge.  Boselli constantly shut down Pro Bowl DEs/OLBs like Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Kevin Green, Derrick Thomas (all Hall of Famers), and Coleman got some good games too.  WHile both Robinson and Little have had their moments, neither have the pedigree/resume of Boselli.

LG:  1999 Ben Coleman vs, 2023 Ben Bartch-1999 Coleman easily.  While he was tall and almost lanky for a G, he pass protected well.  As I indicated, he had long enough arms and good enough feet and balance to slide over to LT and shut down a top pass rusher.  Bartch?  Not so much.

C:  1999 John Wade v. 2023 Luke Fortner-I'd call that a push, though Fortner could end up being better long term.

RG:  1999 Zach Weigert vs. 2023 Brandon Scherff-  Edge-2023 Scherff.  Scherff has a better overall resume than Weigert.  Scherff is big, strong and powerful with a broad bse.  While Weigert's power is good coming out of Nebraska, he seemed stiff.

RT:  1999 Leon Searcy vs. 2023 Walker Little/Anton Harrison.  Edge:  1999 Searcy.  Searcy was a physical and nasty RT with a borderline devastating hand punch.  Little is more versatile, and in my estimation has performed well (though I hear the occasional speculation that the coaching staff may not be sold on him).  But if he continues to shake the rust off, stay healthy and play as well as he did last year or better, he could make it close.

Thoughts?

(07-04-2023, 12:57 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-04-2023, 12:50 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I stand by all of my "Atrocious takes" The problem with you and the other senior citizen is that what I said, vs what you claim I said are completely different things. 


But i'm not going to list off what I said for the 1,000th time, you already know you're wrong and nothing I say is going to change your mind because you're one of those people who wouldn't accept being wrong even if it cost you your life. 

Pure ignorance.

Lol, you didn't stand by your takes; you've tried to pretend that you had a different take than you did. You refuse to accept accountability for what you thought, believed, and posted for months. Then you want to act like the people who remind you of that garbage are the ones who were wrong. Spin it however you want in your attempt to make you the good guy; we know what you did. And we always will. You were given the opportunity for a Mea Culpa (that means admit your mistake btw), but instead you just keep digging yourself in further and further. Because everything you just accused me of is exactly what you are (we call that Projection fyi).

Okay i'ma just go ahead and give you the TLR version.

My take prior to the draft in a nutshell:

He's got talent, but is largely being over hyped. I disagree with comparing him to Luck/Manning because he had MANY flaws coming out of college, the other two did not. I pointed out said flaws (things like inaccuracy throwing on the run, making extremely questionable throws (like the endzone ints he had a few of last season for examples, or the ints in his rookie season where he threw it 5 yards over the middle directly into the hands of the opposing teams linebackers with no jaguar players around at all), tendency to sail passes over his WRs (which happened, a lot) Tendency to sail passes WILDLY whilst throwing on the run, tendency to only rollout to his left no matter how the pocket collapsed forcing him to throw the ball awkwardly...


This list goes on. 


I never called him a bust <-- This was JaguarMVP who was admittedly saying a lot of the same stuff I was saying almost as if he was fan girling my posts, but he was going much more extreme than me.. he took my observations and used them as fuel for what seemed like a hate campaign where he ACTUALLY called him a bust. My "Takes" if you will, we're pointing out areas in which he needed to improve (and in a lot of cases, he still does to this day) where as the other guy was taking those points and using them to call him a bust.

I am on record, the day we drafted him in a thread that I MADE saying I was Cautiously Optimistic.. Don't see why i'd be optimistic at all if I thought he was a bust/had no talent. I was however cautious of how hyped up he was, versus what I saw by watching the film.  

I Pointed out the flaws as I saw them during game day threads, defending my earlier points.


Theres nothing else to be said, the only reason this even gets talked about anymore is because dumb and dumber keeps bringing it up.

(07-05-2023, 01:47 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-04-2023, 12:57 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, you didn't stand by your takes; you've tried to pretend that you had a different take than you did. You refuse to accept accountability for what you thought, believed, and posted for months. Then you want to act like the people who remind you of that garbage are the ones who were wrong. Spin it however you want in your attempt to make you the good guy; we know what you did. And we always will. You were given the opportunity for a Mea Culpa (that means admit your mistake btw), but instead you just keep digging yourself in further and further. Because everything you just accused me of is exactly what you are (we call that Projection fyi).

Quote:Okay i'ma just go ahead and give you the TLR version.

My take prior to the draft in a nutshell:

Bullseye's comments in teal.

My TLR version:  Male Bovine excrement!

Quote:He's got talent, but is largely being over hyped

Overhyped?!?  We've seen the posts where he has finished in the top 5-10 in most major categories despite him operating in his first year in this offense, after a rookie year being coached by a man widely discussed nationally as one of the worst coaches in NFL history. There was at least one analyst (Kyle Brandt) who ranked him only above this year's rookie crop in terms of QBs.

Quote:I disagree with comparing him to Luck/Manning because he had MANY flaws coming out of college,

Interesting.  Presumably this means Manning had far fewer flaws coming out of college.  I will assume, arguendo, you are talking about Peyton Manning (Not Archie or Eli, for the moment).  If so, please indulge me. Was one of the flaws TL had that Manning lacked the ability to read defenses properly?  I posed this question because you are constantly harping on the INTs (TL) has thrown.

Assuming your premise that reading defense is a deficiency that Manning lacked, to what do you attribute his INT total as a rookie?  Peyton Manning threw TWENTY EIGHT (28) INTs as a rookie https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm , compared to only SEVENTEEN (17) thrown by Trevor Lawrence. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...wrTr00.htm How did that happen?  Playing in one fewer game per year, Peyton Manning threw as many INTs in his rookie season as it it took Trevor Lawrence playing in his first two years  plus two extra games due to the schedule change from 16 in Manning's era to 17 in TLs)! 

But the INT analysis isn't done yet, because thus far, the comparison has been between one year for Peyton Manning vs. two tears and two extra games for Trevor Lawrence.  What happens when you include Peyton Manning's 2nd year INT totals?  Manning showed substantial improvement in his second year cutting his INTs from TWENTY-EIGHT (28) his rookie year to FIFTEEN (15) in his second.  That showed dramatic improvement from the first year to the second for the future HOFer Manning, giving him a two year total of FORTY-THREE (43) INTs.  But strangely, the flawed Trevor Lawrence had a similar reduction of INTs from his rookie year to his second year, throwing only EIGHT (8) in his second year.

I was no math major in college, so I will need someone more mathematically competent than I to check my numbers, but it appears that after two seasons, Manning threw EIGHTEEN (18) more INTs  than Trevor Lawrence playing in two fewer games. 

How did THAT happen?

But there are more questions that arise from ChrisJagBoy's analysis.

According to ChrisJagBey, Trevor Lawrence had more flaws coming out of college than Peyton Manning, such that the two did not warrant comparison as rookies.

Yet despite these flaws, by the end of the second year, Trevor Lawrence threw as many TDs in his second year (26) as Peyton Manning (26) in his.

How do you explain this, ChrisJagBoy?

Yes, Lawrence played in that 17th game as opposed to Manning.

But I don't think that explains everything.

I submit surrounding talent and coaching are contributing factors in overall QB performance.

While this is far from an all encompassing or complete list, Peyton Manning had future Hall of Famers RB Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James (both of whom were former top 5 picks in the NFL draft), and Marvin Harrison, plus future Pro Bowl LT Tarik Glenn with him on the roster his first two seasons.  Trevor Lawrence?

At RB he had James Robinson (an UDFA) and Travis Etienne.  His leading WRs were the then 31 year old Marvin Jones and Laviska Shenault.  The leading receiver at TE was Dan Arnold, acquired in a mid season trade with Carolina.

Based on what you know of their careers, which group of skill players would you rather have?  Faulk, James, Harrison and Glenn were all on the primes of their careers when Manning joined them in 1998 (James in 1999).  On the other han, Robinson was traded the next season, Etienne didn't play his rookie season due to a lisfranc injury, Jones was never a #1 WR, and Shenault, despite our optiimism, never developed into anything special before being traded to Carolina.  Dan Arnold, who was acquired in a trade, had 24 receptions.  Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have three future Hall of Famers and a future Pro Bowler all in their primes supporting my young QB than the guys Trevor Lawrence had his rookie year.

As for coaching, say what you will about Jim Mora's sound bites, or his overly conservative leanings with the Saints, but at least he had NFL successful NFL coaching experience prior to coming to the Colts.

Urban Meyer?  Not so much.  He didn't last a complete season.  I don't think it's a coincidence Trevor Lawrence showed the improvement he did when the team improved the coaching from Meyer in year one to Doug Pederson-who played under Don Shula and Mike Holmgren and being an assistant coach under Andy Reid before winning a Super Bowl in Philadelphia before coming to Jacksonville.

But again, maybe I'm crazy enough to think that coaching competence/philosophy and surrounding talent influences QB performance and development in a big way.  What say you, ChrisJagBoy?

Quote:the other two did not. I pointed out said flaws (things like inaccuracy throwing on the run, making extremely questionable throws (like the endzone ints he had a few of last season for examples, or the ints in his rookie season where he threw it 5 yards over the middle directly into the hands of the opposing teams linebackers with no jaguar players around at all), tendency to sail passes over his WRs (which happened, a lot) Tendency to sail passes WILDLY whilst throwing on the run, tendency to only rollout to his left no matter how the pocket collapsed forcing him to throw the ball awkwardly...

This list goes on.

(Emphasis added)


I never called him a bust <-- This was JaguarMVP who was admittedly saying a lot of the same stuff I was saying almost as if he was fan girling my posts, but he was going much more extreme than me.. he took my observations and used them as fuel for what seemed like a hate campaign where he ACTUALLY called him a bust. 

I am on record, the day we drafted him in a thread that I MADE saying I was Cautiously Optimistic.. Don't see why i'd be optimistic at all if I thought he was a bust/had no talent. 

I Pointed out the flaws as I saw them during game day threads, defending my earlier points.


Theres nothing else to be said, the only reason this even gets talked about anymore is because dumb and dumber keeps bringing it up.

Even assuming you never called him a bust on the board, you've given ample indication you thought at some point he was trending in that direction.  Throughout your analysis, you've given no regard to surrounding talent, quality of coaching, and his actual improvement in performance.

Yes, you pointed out what you perceived to be flaws, but examinations of his TDs thrown, his reductions in INTs, the improvement in the win totals to the point he led the team to the playoffs in his second year have shown our analysis of what you perceive to be his flaws to be gross exaggeration at best.  Your bias is even more glaring when shown in the absence of a year by year comparison to Manning, whom you held up as being developed well beyond Lawrence at this stage of his career.

P.S.-In one of your closing paragraphs, you raise the topic of Trevor Lawrence's supposed lack of accuracy.  However, despite your perception of his flaws, Trevor Lawrence threw for a higher completion percentage than Manning in each of his first two seasons.  How do you explain that?

(07-04-2023, 12:57 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-04-2023, 12:50 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I stand by all of my "Atrocious takes" The problem with you and the other senior citizen is that what I said, vs what you claim I said are completely different things. 


But i'm not going to list off what I said for the 1,000th time, you already know you're wrong and nothing I say is going to change your mind because you're one of those people who wouldn't accept being wrong even if it cost you your life. 

Pure ignorance.

Lol, you didn't stand by your takes; you've tried to pretend that you had a different take than you did. You refuse to accept accountability for what you thought, believed, and posted for months. Then you want to act like the people who remind you of that garbage are the ones who were wrong. Spin it however you want in your attempt to make you the good guy; we know what you did. And we always will. You were given the opportunity for a Mea Culpa (that means admit your mistake btw), but instead you just keep digging yourself in further and further. Because everything you just accused me of is exactly what you are (we call that Projection fyi).

One excellent example where being old is better than being young and ignorant…

(07-02-2023, 03:05 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2023, 11:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, forgot my audience. I'll use smaller words for you next time SweetDougie.

I still feel the cringe from you using the word "Transgressions" over a false claim you made on a forum occupied by approximately 30 active users.

At this point I almost want to be banned from this forum, it's bad enough with the censorship but the absolute ignorance showcased by the two most active moderators on this board makes me feel embarrased to even claim I have an account here.

---

(07-01-2023, 06:48 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Good scenarios.  I would reverse three and two as I think Little is more likely to swing before moving to G, but it’s a coin toss, really.

Honestly in a perfect world, 2 of them become bookend tackles and one of them becomes the Guard we desperately need. 

Unlikely, and I'm not sure who would go where.. but outside of dumping Cam for some picks i'd love for this to be the alternative.

You know you're not required to post here, poochie? The irony of you cringing over word choices is not lost on this audience, mind you.

I'd feel a little apprehensive if we're celebrating early-pick tackles as the Guard we need. We should be darfting and developing guards if we need them so desperately. While a glut of tackles is a nice problem to have, I think everyone will agree that Cam is not a long-term solution, so even if he is a bookend in your scenario, we're looking at having to find another tackle yet again. If the world were perfect, we'd have the bookends, Bartch would be playing out of his mind, and we'd lie awake at night wondering how to use all the talent we've left sitting on the bench.

(07-05-2023, 06:06 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-05-2023, 01:47 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Bullseye's comments in teal.

My TLR version:  Male Bovine excrement!

Overhyped?!?  We've seen the posts where he has finished in the top 5-10 in most major categories despite him operating in his first year in this offense, after a rookie year being coached by a man widely discussed nationally as one of the worst coaches in NFL history. There was at least one analyst (Kyle Brandt) who ranked him only above this year's rookie crop in terms of QBs.


Interesting.  Presumably this means Manning had far fewer flaws coming out of college.  Assuming arguendo you are talking about Peyton Manning (Not Archie or Eli, for the moment).  If so, please indulge me. Was one of the flaws TL had that Manning lacked the ability to read defenses properly?  I posed this question because you are constantly harping on the INTs (TL) has thrown.

Assuming your premise that reading defense is a deficiency that Manning lacked, to what do you attribute his INT total as a rookie?  Peyton Manning threw TWENTY EIGHT (28) TDs as a rookie https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm , compared to only SEVENTEEN (17) thrown by Trevor Lawrence. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...wrTr00.htm How did that happen?  Playing in one fewer game per year, Peyton Manning threw as many INTs in his rookie season as it it took Trevor Lawrence playing in his first two years  plus two extra games due to the schedule change from 16 in Manning's era to 17 in TLs)! 

But the INT analysis isn't done yet, because thus far, the comparison has been between one year for Peyton Manning vs. two tears and two extra games for Trevor Lawrence.  What happens when you include Peyton Manning's 2nd year INT totals?  Manning showed substantial improvement in his second year cutting his INTs from TWENTY-EIGHT (28) his rookie year to FIFTEEN (15) in his second.  That showed dramatic improvement from the first year to the second for the future HOFer Manning, giving him a two year total of FORTY-THREE (43) INTs.  But strangely, the flawed Trevor Lawrence had a similar reduction of INTs from his rookie year to his second year, throwing only EIGHT (8) in his second year.


I was no math major in college, so I will need someone more mathematically competent than I to check my numbers, but it appears that after two seasons, Manning threw EIGHTEEN (18) more INTs  than Trevor Lawrence playing in two fewer games. 

How did THAT happen?

But there are more questions that arise from ChrisJagBoy's analysis.

According to ChrisJagBey, Trevor Lawrence had more flaws coming out of college than Peyton Manning, such that the two did not warrant comparison as rookies.

Yet despite these flaws, by the end of the second year, Trevor Lawrence threw as many TDs in his second year (26) as Peyton Manning (26) in his.

How do you explain this, ChrisJagBoy?

Yes, Lawrence played in that 17th game as opposed to Manning.

But I don't think that explains everything.

I submit surrounding talent and coaching are contributing factors in overall QB performance.

While this is far from an all encompassing or complete list, Peyton Manning had future Hall of Famers RB Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James (both of whom were former top 5 picks in the NFL draft), and Marvin Harrison, plus future Pro Bowl LT Tarik Glenn with him on the roster his first two seasons.  Trevor Lawrence?

At RB he had James Robinson (an UDFA) and Travis Etienne.  His leading WRs were the then 31 year old Marvin Jones and Laviska Shenault.  The leading receiver at TE was Dan Arnold, acquired in a mid season trade with Carolina.

Based on what you know of their careers, which group of skill players would you rather have?  Faulk, James, Harrison and Glenn were all on the primes of their careers when Manning joined them in 1998 (James in 1999).  On the other han, Robinson was traded the next season, Etienne didn't play his rookie season due to a lisfranc injury, Jones was never a #1 WR, and Shenault, despite our optiimism, never developed into anything special.  Dan Arnold, who was acquired in a trade, had 24 receptions.  Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have three future Hall of Famers and a future Pro Bowler all in their primes
 supporting my young QB than the guys Trevor Lawrence had his rookie year.

As for coaching, say what you will about Jim Mora's sound bites, or his overly conservative leanings with the Saints, but at least he had NFL successful NFL coaching experience prior to coming to the Colts.

Urban Meyer?  Not so much.  I don't think it's a coincidence Trevor Lawrence showed the improvement he did when the team improved the coaching from Meyer in year one to Doug Pederson-who played under Don Shula and Mike Holmgren and being an assistant coach under Andy Reid before winning a Super Bowl in Philadelphia before coming to Jacksonville.

But again, maybe I'm crazy enough to think that coaching competence/philosophy and surrounding talent influences QB performance and development in a big way.  What say you, ChrisJagBoy?




(Emphasis added)


I never called him a bust <-- This was JaguarMVP who was admittedly saying a lot of the same stuff I was saying almost as if he was fan girling my posts, but he was going much more extreme than me.. he took my observations and used them as fuel for what seemed like a hate campaign where he ACTUALLY called him a bust. 

I am on record, the day we drafted him in a thread that I MADE saying I was Cautiously Optimistic.. Don't see why i'd be optimistic at all if I thought he was a bust/had no talent. 

I Pointed out the flaws as I saw them during game day threads, defending my earlier points.


Theres nothing else to be said, the only reason this even gets talked about anymore is because dumb and dumber keeps bringing it up.

Even assuming you never called him a bus on the board, you've given ample indication you thought at some point he was trending in that direction.  Throughout your analysis, you've given no regard to surrounding talent, quality of coaching, and his actual improvement in performance.

Yes, you pointed out what you perceived to be flaws, but examinations of his TDs thrown, his reductions in INTs, the improvement in the win totals to the point he led the team to the playoffs in his second year have shown our analysis of what you perceive to be his flaws to be gross exaggeration at best.  Your bias is even more glaring when shown in the absence of a year by year comparison to Manning, whim you held up as being developed well beyond Lawrence at this stage of his career.

P.S.-In one of your closing paragraphs, you raise toe topic of Trevor Lawrence's supposed lack of accuracy.  However, despite your perception of his flaws, Trevor Lawrence threw for a higher completion percentage than Manning in each of his first two seasons.  How do you explain that?

I haven't seen a curb stomping like this since American History X.

(07-04-2023, 05:21 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Accept accountability for what you thought?  Sounds a bit Maoist, mate. It’s just a football forum, remember.

Titans still suck.

LOL

So far we've got:

"I never called him a bust!! I said he sucks and I see no reason for hope, but I never called him a bust!"

"I'm embarrassed to be a member of this board" (easily remedied, no?)

And - we've learned that everyone over forty is a senior citizen and somehow irrelevant. Interesting news. LOL

And now Bullseye has poked more holes in his TL criticism than all the cheese in Switzerland.

Man, I wish there was some football happening!

ChrisJagBoy,

Just a few more questions...if you would be so kind. We blue hairs have a hard time understanding at times.

1. Looking at the numbers, Peyton Manning threw exactly the same number of TDs in his rookie year as he did in his second. Considering Manning was in his second year, with a full season's worth of experience under his belt, in the same offense and still superior surrounding talent, it's a shock he didn't improve in the number of TD passes thrown. Meanwhile, the comparatively mentally enfeebled Trevor Lawrence (per your tacit analysis) managed to more than double his own TD output fro year one to year two. To what do you attribute that? Why no mention of his stagnant TD totals between year one to year two in your analysis?

2. Peyton Manning, he of the NFL bloodlines and pedigree, didn't win his first playoff game despite superior surrounding offensive talent until the 2003 season0his 5th in the league. Strange, considering he made the playoffs in 1999, 2000, and 2002-three of his first five year. However, Trevor Lawrence-he with many more flaws coming out than Manning, won his first playoff game in his first playoff start,,,which came in his second year. How wass Trevor Lawrence able to win in the post season before Manning managed to do so?

3. Last season, Trevor Lawrence, who, per your various arguments, seems almost doomed to throw an excessive number of INTs. Yet to the best of my recollection, you didn't deviate from that premise until I pointed out the reduction in his INT total into single digits this past season. Yet Peyton Manning only managed single digits in INTs only once in his career in 20060the 9th year of his career. How did that happen?

4. In an earlier post, you made the argument that left the impression it is near inexcusable for a would be elite QB to throw for less than 30 TDs in a season. Yet after two seasons, Peyton Manning had not eclipsed the 26 TDs he threw in his first year, or for that matter, the 26 Trevor Lawrence threw last year. Based upon your analysis, was Manning NOT a top 5 or elite QB during his first two years in the league?

Again, math is not my strong suit, but TL has thrown 15 fewer INTs over his first two years than Manning his first two years, threw the same number of TDs (26) by year two as Manning despite having inferior talent at his disposal, and had a higher completion percentage his first two seasons than Manning had in his first two years, and won his first playoff game some four years ahead of the pace set by Peyton Manning. So if Lawrence's numbers are better overall in his first two years than Manning's and his performance in the playoffs in terms of win production is ahead of the pace set by Manning, what's the basis for arguing Manning was better his first two years? Is it possible that Trevor Lawrence was actually better his first two years than Mannins? Why wouldn't you have been down on Manning, if so?

Please forgive me for not grasping these tacit nuances of your arguments earlier. I am not always able to avail myself of the senior discounts at Denny's and other various establishments and I must have missed it.