Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:lol


I see what you did there.

It was a poke at you at my expense, right? lol.

Quote:!.  Did you have any idea where on his meniscus the tear took place at the time the injury was announced?

 

2.  Without that knowledge, how could you dismiss the possibility that he would be out for months out of anything other than ignorance and optimism?  Without that knowledge of how the knee was torn, how could you distinguish between Ramsey's injury, whom you speculated will keep him out almost no time, vs. Myles Jack's meniscus injury, which kept him out for months?!?

 

Even two local physicians-Steven Lucie and Kevin Murphy-said a months long recovery from this injury was possible, even if less of a likelihood than the shorter recovery.

 

Additionally, even though his injury was not worst case scenario, his recovery is still in excess of a month.

 

Of all the things on a message board to thump your chest over, you seriously chose this?!?

 

We're all Jaguars fans, relieved that our first round pick will be playing for us this year.

 

Let's leave it at that.

The fact that the team made a point from the very beginning to inform everyone that it was a minor injury should have been enough to keep things in perspective for a rational person.

 

If Steven Lucie and Kevin Murphy had the chance to examine Ramsey like the team doctors did, they would have had a much different prognostication than just speculating worst case scenarios.

According to the Jaguars.com story that first announced the injury, this was the closing line.

 

"Whereas a torn ACL is typically a season ending injury, recovery time for a meniscus injury varies widely based on the nature of the tear."

 

(Emphasis added)

 

jaguars.com/news/article-JaguarsNews/Ramsey-sustains-injury/dba20151-6522-4b67-bbc0-880af967c407

 

Of note, earlier in the same article...

 

"Ramsey is obtaining a second opinion next week, according to the team.  The team's statement said that more information will be available when Head Team Physician Kevin Kaplan and the Jaguars' athletic training staff determine the appropriate medical care." 

 

When the injury was first announced, the team did not know the appropriate medical care.

 

Even when the team indicated later they didn't THINK it would be a serious injury, Ramsey still got the second opinion, and the team did NOT give a definitive timeframe for recovery until AFTER he had the surgery.

 

This quote from Gus Bradley after the surgery was announced:

 

"That's great news," coach Gus Bradley said after the team's second day of OTAs.  "That's what we hoped for.  We knew all of the scenarios."  "It sounds like come training camp, he should be ready to go."

 

(Emphasis added)

 

That is a curious quote coming from a person who definitively KNEW it wasn't serious, isn't it?

 

The only thing that keeps this in the "minor injury" category is the timing.

 

If the injury happened during the season, he misses five to six games based upon the exact timetable announced by the team.  Nobody would have considered that same injury to be minor under those circumstances.

 

Keep in mind, this same team had Julius Thomas returning to action a lot earlier than he did with his broken hand last year.  It IS possible original medical prognoses can go awry.

 

Rational, indeed.

Thank you JagsGooner.  Look forward to more debates/discussions with you in the future!

Quote: 

#Jaguars 1st-round pick Jalen Ramsey has suffered a knee injury, source said. Characterized now as a small meniscus tear. 2nd opinion coming

 

 

 
<div>Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) | Twitter
https://twitter.com/RapSheet

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<div>1 min ago - View on Twitter
#Jaguars DB Jalen Ramsey's 2nd opinion on his knee is early next week. If all goes well, could be back by the start of camp. That's the hope
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Very first post in this thread. Small tear with the expectations that he will be back by camp and exactly how things turned out.

 

That's why a rational person doesn't freak out.

Predator,

 

I trust you can rationally explain the differences between Ramsey's injury-with the information gleaned prior to the surgery and Myles Jack's injury, that kept him out the last three months of last season.

 

I also trust you can rationally explain why the "quick healing injury" Julius Thomas had that was originally supposed to keep him out until maybe the end of the preseason with the hopes he would be back week one wound up keeping him out until what...week 6?  Could you rationally explain why a diagnosis at such an early stage could not possibly be wrong within the context of the Thomas injury, and how people worried until a more definitive examination and prognosis became available were being irrational within the context of what the team announced and what actually happened with Thomas?

 

Interesting.  In the very tweet you provided, there is a caveat..."If all goes well..."

 

Why would that language be necessary for such a definitively minor injury?

Quote:Predator,

 

I trust you can rationally explain the differences between Ramsey's injury-with the information gleaned prior to the surgery and Myles Jack's injury, that kept him out the last three months of last season.

 

I also trust you can rationally explain why the "quick healing injury" Julius Thomas had that was originally supposed to keep him out until maybe the end of the preseason with the hopes he would be back week one wound up keeping him out until what...week 6?

 

Interesting.  In the very tweet you provided, there is a caveat..."If all goes well..."

 

Why would that language be necessary for such a definitively minor injury?

Sure I'll explain it right after you show me where anyone said Jack's injury was a small tear.

 

If all goes well I won't die in my sleep tonight. That doesn't mean I don't have the full expectation to wake up in the morning.

The size of the tear was only one of the factors to determine the length of the recovery.  The location of the tear was also important, based upon Murphy and Lucie's medical education and experience.

 

Other than a general statement that his meniscus was torn, where in any of the Jaguars statements did they state the location of the tear definitively precludes a long recovery time?

Quote:The size of the tear was only one of the factors to determine the length of the recovery.  The location of the tear was also important, based upon Murphy and Lucie's medical education and experience.

 

Other than a general statement that his meniscus was torn, where in any of the Jaguars statements did they state the location of the tear definitively precludes a long recovery time?

Where did the jags say it was a major injury or a long timetable for recovery?

 

You are the one trying to justify these beliefs. You are the one with the burden of proof to find rational support for these beliefs.

They said they expected a short recovery time, but did not definitively rule out the longer recovery time until AFTER the surgery.

 

Considering they underestimated the recovery time for another "quick healing" injury in Thomas, it was rational to have some apprehension about Ramsey's recovery time.

 

But the logic behind the "minor injury" rationale disappears if you put the same injury midseason, where he would miss nearly 40 percent of the season.  It disappears when the doctors and the team did not definitively rule out a lengthier rehab time until the arthroscope allowed the doctor to actually see the tear to make an accurate diagnosis.  Seems irrational to me to rely upon the team for the information, but ignore the team's refusal to make a definitive diagnosis until the surgery happened.

Quote:They said they expected a short recovery time, but did not definitively rule out the longer recovery time until AFTER the surgery.

 

Considering they underestimated the recovery time for another "quick healing" injury in Thomas, it was rational to have some apprehension about Ramsey's recovery time.

 

But the logic behind the "minor injury" rationale disappears if you put the same injury midseason, where he would miss nearly 40 percent of the season.  It disappears when the doctors and the team did not definitively rule out a lengthier rehab time until the arthroscope allowed the doctor to actually see the tear to make an accurate diagnosis.  Seems irrational to me to rely upon the team for the information, but ignore the team's refusal to make a definitive diagnosis until the surgery happened.

But this wasn't  midseason it was May which is another rational reason to not get so worked up over the injury so prematurely.

Quote:But this wasn't  midseason it was May which is another rational reason to not get so worked up over the injury so prematurely.

So...torn ACL that happens late December/Early January (Marks)=maybe 4-5 missed games=not serious injury, but torn ACL that happens in May that results in missed season (Fowler)=serious injury?

 

Sounds perfectly rational to me.

Quote:So...torn ACL that happens late December/Early January (Marks)=maybe 4-5 missed games=not serious injury, but torn ACL that happens in May that results in missed season (Fowler)=serious injury?

 

Sounds perfectly rational to me.

It wasn't a torn ACL either.

 

You keep using conditions that did not apply to this particular injury which is completely irrational way of viewing the situation.

I'm using your logic that an injury that happens at one time of year causing fewer games missed is less serious than the exact same injury that happens midseason.  If you have a problem with irrationality, it stems from your own arguments.

Quote:I'm using your logic that an injury that happens at one time of year causing fewer games missed is less serious than the exact same injury that happens midseason. If you have a problem with irrationality, it stems from your own arguments.

Lol people don't like being proven wrong....

Quote:I'm using your logic that an injury that happens at one time of year causing fewer games missed is less serious than the exact same injury that happens midseason.  If you have a problem with irrationality, it stems from your own arguments.

Quit bringing up midseason. This didn't happen in midseason it's a small tear that happened in May and isn't going to even keep him out of camp.

 

Quit creating imaginary scenarios and calling that rational thinking. Evaluating something using baseless facts is the very definition of being irrational.

We're debating the seriousness/severity of the injury, not the convenience of the injury.

 

Saying a meniscus tear is identical to a meniscus tear is far different from saying a meniscus tear in one month is different from the same tear in a different month.

 

A convenient injury doesn't make the injury any more or less severe.  You are arguing that an injury suffered in one month is somehow less severe than the same injury suffered in a different month.

 

Nothing irrational about my stance here.  I'm saying the injury is of equal severity irrespective of when it happens.

Quote:They said they expected a short recovery time, but did not definitively rule out the longer recovery time until AFTER the surgery.


Considering they underestimated the recovery time for another "quick healing" injury in Thomas, it was rational to have some apprehension about Ramsey's recovery time.


But the logic behind the "minor injury" rationale disappears if you put the same injury midseason, where he would miss nearly 40 percent of the season. It disappears when the doctors and the team did not definitively rule out a lengthier rehab time until the arthroscope allowed the doctor to actually see the tear to make an accurate diagnosis. Seems irrational to me to rely upon the team for the information, but ignore the team's refusal to make a definitive diagnosis until the surgery happened.

You never know the full extent of an injury like this until you get a scope in there. The medical staff can certainly make an educated guess about the severity, and in this case their prognosis was spot on. The expectation based on the kind of injury he sustained suggested a quick recovery in time for camp. I'm not really sure why you're grinding gears over this. Minor injury. Back for camp. Move on.

Quote:We're debating the seriousness/severity of the injury, not the convenience of the injury.

 

Saying a meniscus tear is identical to a meniscus tear is far different from saying a meniscus tear in one month is different from the same tear in a different month.

 

A convenient injury doesn't make the injury any more or less severe.  You are arguing that an injury suffered in one month is somehow less severe than the same injury suffered in a different month.

 

Nothing irrational about my stance here.  I'm saying the injury is of equal severity irrespective of when it happens.

Timing has no effect on the injury itself but does have a major impact on the severity of the situation.

 

Small tear and he will be back by camp. Minor situation when looked at rationally.

FBT, I'm glad you led with your opening line, because that is a large part of basis for having apprehension about the severity of the injury despite the initial optimism.  Keep in mind, part of the optimism surrounding the quick turnaround for the injury was from Lags and Boselli, who, through their own experiences playing in the league, have known players to not miss any time at all with some meniscus tears.  (I seem to recall Marques Colston as being a name mentioned in connection with the no time missed possibility).  Certainly, you concede the injury surpassed those best case scenarios...right?  Why "grind gears over this?"  I object to the characterization of those of us fearful of a more long term recovery as "irrational," when every doctor who commented on this did not definitively rule out the possibility of a longer term recovery, when our own second round draft pick lost three months over a meniscus injury, when the team has a recent and longer term history of underestimating recovery times (Julius Thomas' hand, Fred Taylor's groin tear), when Ramsey himself sought a second opinion, when we are just over a year removed from our first round pick missing an entire season with a knee injury suffered at a similar stage in camp, and Bradley expressed relief over the post surgery prognosis, acknowledging different possible "scenarios."

 

Looking back, I suspect the rush to classify those worried as irrational stems as much from the individuals involved in expressing the worry than it did the actual expression of concern.