Quote:Not all interceptions are the same. Comparing INT %'s is a meaningless exercise by itself in my opinion. Bortles has a documented history of throwing pick 6's and turning the ball over deep in our own territory. I covered part of that history <a class="bbc_url" href='https://jungle.jaguars.com/index.php?/topic/21278-points-given-up-that-should-not-be-assigned-to-the-jags-d/#entry909861'>here</a>. I haven't and probably won't go back through Byron's years here, but just from memory alone I don't remember him having anywhere near the amount of back breakingly bone headed throws that we see far too frequently from Bortles. Leftwich's issue was more of not being able to get the ball out quick enough and not necessarily one of frequently making poor decisions with the football.
Despite this, I still think Bortles has the potential to be a great QB and the FO will have one more year to evaluate him and make a decision on him. If he plays moderately well, we'll probably franchise him and have him prove it again in 2018. If he plays really well, we may see them go ahead and lock him up. If he plays like he did for the majority of this year, I think it's time to move on.
There is no denying that Bortles' picks are more costly than Byron's were. Byron had a ball control offense and great defense/special teams and wasn't backed up inside the 20 as often as this team is this year. Byron also didn't have to play from behind and didn't have the 3rd and longs that Blake has had to face.
Whats being compared is a conservative, run first, ball control offense vs an offense being forced into throwing often and in bad situations. By the numbers, Byron was no less turnover prone than Blake, even in a favorable offense.
Quote:So it would appear that the Jags are looking elsewhere.
<a class="bbc_url" href='https://www.google.com/amp/giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/12/30/tom-coughlin-jacksonville-jaguars-not-head-coach-new-york-giants/amp/'>https://www.google.com/amp/giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/12/30/tom-coughlin-jacksonville-jaguars-not-head-coach-new-york-giants/amp/</a>
Welp.
Quote:No blakes is much shorter than leftwich ever was.
Shorter, but not short.
Quote:There is no denying that Bortles' picks are more costly than Byron's were. Byron had a ball control offense and great defense/special teams and wasn't backed up inside the 20 as often as this team is this year. Byron also didn't have to play from behind and didn't have the 3rd and longs that Blake has had to face.
Whats being compared is a conservative, run first, ball control offense vs an offense being forced into throwing often and in bad situations. By the numbers, Byron was no less turnover prone than Blake, even in a favorable offense.
Byron started a total of 44 regular season games while he was in Jax and he had an INT % of 2.7 and a total of 36 INTs. Blake started his 44th game last Saturday and has an INT % of 3.1 with a total of 51 INTs. Total attempts by Byron over his tenure here were 1,344. Blake has had 1,667 attempts or 323 more. That's a little over 7 more attempts per game for Blake. If you apply Bortles INT % to Byron's attempts, you still come out with 41 or 42 depending on how you round. That's a 14 to 17% increase in INT's for Blake over Byron over the same number of attempts. Absolutely we don't want him throwing as much as he has, but I wouldn't proclaim him as "no less turnover prone" based on these numbers.
Quote:In other words, he's talking about things that can't be measured and are highly subjective as opposed to hard facts.
I'm not bashing Byron - he was a decent quarterback, but the revisionist history is strong here.
What specific facts support that Byron didn't make the same bad decisions as Blake? I just see a bunch of conclusory statements with nothing to back them. Statistically, they turn the ball over at a similar rate and complete balls at a similar rate.
Blake has a long way to go with mechanics and I'm sure he would like to command an offense better than he does, but inferring as fact that somehow Byron would have been better for this team is far-fetched.
That's a lot of words used just to say "I disagree but can't rebut a single word you said." No where did I imply anything about Byron being "better for this team," nor did I give you any reason to infer that.
Have you ever watched the two play? Did Byron's receivers suffer the same number of concussions and lose the amount of game time for them as Blake? No.
Did you ever see Byron throw the kinds of ducks that come from Blake? No.
Vic gushed about Byron's ability to talk about specific plays, his reads and what he saw, and the ability to break down what was happening and what he was looking for on any particular play Vic asked him about. Blake hasn't demonstrated he's developed that far. Has Blake spoken with that kind of clarity about any of the plays he's missed? Certainly not.
Wow, you act like I shot your dog. Either you've got way too much invested in Blake, or are trying to protect some false opinion you have of Byron as a QB, or both.
Again, there's a lot Blake needs to work on in digesting and understanding how to attack defenses in addition to working on his mechanical issues. I don't understand why that appears to be so offensive to you.
I'm Ok with not getting Coughlin. Perhaps he wanted too much autonomy
Quote:That's a lot of words used just to say "I disagree but can't rebut a single word you said." No where did I imply anything about Byron being "better for this team," nor did I give you any reason to infer that.
Have you ever watched the two play? Did Byron's receivers suffer the same number of concussions and lose the amount of game time for them as Blake? No.
Did you ever see Byron throw the kinds of ducks that come from Blake? No.
Vic gushed about Byron's ability to talk about specific plays, his reads and what he saw, and the ability to break down what was happening and what he was looking for on any particular play Vic asked him about. Blake hasn't demonstrated he's developed that far. Has Blake spoken with that kind of clarity about any of the plays he's missed? Certainly not.
Wow, you act like I shot your dog. Either you've got way too much invested in Blake, or are trying to protect some false opinion you have of Byron as a QB, or both.
Again, there's a lot Blake needs to work on in digesting and understanding how to attack defenses in addition to working on his mechanical issues. I don't understand why that appears to be so offensive to you.
I agree that he could improve in all the areas everyone has mentioned. He isn't good in any of those areas. However, I disagree with the extremist view point about the extent of how bad he is in these areas. As I have pointed out, his interception ratio is similar to a great many players who don't get remotely the same criticism, and now Byron Leftwich who is extremely similar statistically over their careers in these areas. I am pointing out the massive and blatant hypocrisy here. Everyone wanted him to improve on the interceptions, and he has every year he has been in the league, including this year.
We know what we have in Bortles. He is a gunslinger who is never going to have a great completion percentage or interception ratio. You live with the bad, because he is going to put up gaudy numbers with it. Continue to neuter him and all you are going to be left with is the turnovers without the production. I don't know why there is a sudden obsession for a game manager. We have seen what the offense looks like with one in Henne.
If you want to point out his flaws and say he needs to get better or get gone, then I might agree. Just be consistent. Don't be afraid to label Big Ben as awful as well.
The thing is, Blake's INTs are not merely the result of him being a gunslinger, and for that matter he's hardly been the gunslinger this year that he was last year. You keep going to the stats. Well, stats are nice, but they don't paint the whole picture. You're trying to argue that his INTs aren't worse that others. Well, great, but the point many of us are trying to make is that they can be a whole lot better. Far too many of Blake's INTs are strictly the result of him either making a dumb decision or somehow failing to properly diagnose what he's seeing. That's a problem. I don't care if so-and-so gunslinger from some other team has the same number of INTs. That player's issues and reasons why may be entirely different.
In Byron's case, his INTs pertained to CBs honing in on his long wind-mill motion on top of him starring down receivers, his refusal to throw out of bounds, WRs slipping or tipping the ball up for grabs, great physical defensive plays, and I'm sure there's more... but it wasn't stupid decisions or failing to understand what's happening downfield.
On the bright side, because so many of Blake's INTs are mental issues and not physical issues, there's reason to think that good coaching can help.
Quote:The thing is, Blake's INTs are not merely the result of him being a gunslinger, and for that matter he's hardly been the gunslinger this year that he was last year. You keep going to the stats. Well, stats are nice, but they don't paint the whole picture. You're trying to argue that his INTs aren't worse that others. Well, great, but the point many of us are trying to make is that they can be a whole lot better. Far too many of Blake's INTs are strictly the result of him either making a dumb decision or somehow failing to properly diagnose what he's seeing. That's a problem. I don't care if so-and-so gunslinger from some other team has the same number of INTs. That player's issues and reasons why may be entirely different.
In Byron's case, his INTs pertained to CBs honing in on his long wind-mill motion on top of him starring down receivers, his refusal to throw out of bounds, WRs slipping or tipping the ball up for grabs, great physical defensive plays, and I'm sure there's more... but it wasn't stupid decisions or failing to understand what's happening downfield.
On the bright side, because so many of Blake's INTs are mental issues and not physical issues, there's reason to think that good coaching can help.
Totally forgot this was a blake vs byron thread
Quote:Totally forgot this was a blake vs byron thread
Hearkens back to Gerrard vs Lefty, don't it?
Really am bummed Coughlin couldn't be brought in to coach, but I have faith whoever we hire will be better than Bradley. I honestly wouldn't mind Marrone.
Blake's interceptions
1 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
2 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
3 - Bone-headed pass
4 - Deflected at the line of scrimmage
5 - Leaping 1-handed catch by linebacker in zone
6 - Third and long on final play of the game
7 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage in the end zone
8 - Underneath receiver runs poor route and corner fades off to pick off Blake's underthrown ball (more bad play by Blake and the receiver than error)
9 - Deflected off Allen Robinson on last play of game
10 - Held onto ball too long and was hit as he threw (semi-boneheaded)
11 - Defender jumps out route in single coverage (semi-bonheaded)
12 - Deflected off a mugged Marqise Lee in single coverage
13 - Deflected off Marqise Lee's foot on the last play
14 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage
15 - Didn't see defender (boneheaded play in man single coverage)
16 - Threw into coverage on final play of game (semi-boneheaded)
I'm not seeing all these boneheaded interceptions. I'm seeing mostly deflected passes. If anything, I would be criticizing his accuracy on those deflected passes more than making stupid throws. He wasn't getting picked off because he was making bad reads this year. He was getting picked off because he didn't have great ball placement and the receivers deflected the ball to defenders.
Quote:Blake's interceptions
1 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
2 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
3 - Bone-headed pass
4 - Deflected at the line of scrimmage
5 - Leaping 1-handed catch by linebacker in zone
6 - Third and long on final play of the game
7 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage in the end zone
8 - Underneath receiver runs poor route and corner fades off to pick off Blake's underthrown ball (more bad play by Blake and the receiver than error)
9 - Deflected off Allen Robinson on last play of game
10 - Held onto ball too long and was hit as he threw (semi-boneheaded)
11 - Defender jumps out route in single coverage (semi-bonheaded)
12 - Deflected off a mugged Marqise Lee in single coverage
13 - Deflected off Marqise Lee's foot on the last play
14 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage
15 - Didn't see defender (boneheaded play in man single coverage)
16 - Threw into coverage on final play of game (semi-boneheaded)
I'm not seeing all these boneheaded interceptions. I'm seeing mostly deflected passes. If anything, I would be criticizing his accuracy on those deflected passes more than making stupid throws. He wasn't getting picked off because he was making bad reads this year. He was getting picked off because he didn't have great ball placement and the receivers deflected the ball to defenders.
Good on ya, mate. Thanks for breaking it down.
Quote:Blake's interceptions
1 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
2 - Deflected off Marqise Lee in single coverage
3 - Bone-headed pass
4 - Deflected at the line of scrimmage
5 - Leaping 1-handed catch by linebacker in zone
6 - Third and long on final play of the game
7 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage in the end zone
8 - Underneath receiver runs poor route and corner fades off to pick off Blake's underthrown ball (more bad play by Blake and the receiver than error)
9 - Deflected off Allen Robinson on last play of game
10 - Held onto ball too long and was hit as he threw (semi-boneheaded)
11 - Defender jumps out route in single coverage (semi-bonheaded)
12 - Deflected off a mugged Marqise Lee in single coverage
13 - Deflected off Marqise Lee's foot on the last play
14 - Deflected off Allen Robinson in single coverage
15 - Didn't see defender (boneheaded play in man single coverage)
16 - Threw into coverage on final play of game (semi-boneheaded)
I'm not seeing all these boneheaded interceptions. I'm seeing mostly deflected passes. If anything, I would be criticizing his accuracy on those deflected passes more than making stupid throws. He wasn't getting picked off because he was making bad reads this year. He was getting picked off because he didn't have great ball placement and the receivers deflected the ball to defenders.
#10 was also off the foot screen pass right?
Quote:#10 was also off the foot screen pass right?
That one was like 15 or 20 yards downfield to the right hash and Blake was hit and the ball went straight to the linebacker that was half way between them.
I believe the play you are talking about was technically a fumble.
The pass of Lee's foot that got intercepted pretty much describes the 2016 Jaguars season.
Quote:If you want to point out his flaws and say he needs to get better or get gone, then I might agree. Just be consistent. Don't be afraid to label Big Ben as awful as well.
Talk about extreme viewpoints... nothing I've said has been this ridiculous. Perhaps you've confused me with something someone else said... because this is just... wow...
My viewpoint is what you're saying you agree with. I do see that you agree with me about ball placement, after you've taken a look at the interceptions.
Quote:Really am bummed Coughlin couldn't be brought in to coach, but I have faith whoever we hire will be better than Bradley. I honestly wouldn't mind Marrone.
Coughlin was a favorite name to hear, but IMO it was going to be a difficult sell for both sides... Tom was fired from here. That's difficult for both sides to reconcile, regardless of the circumstances.
I thought Marrone had earned an interview... perhaps he still has, but as more time passes since considering that idea I'm not sold on keeping any single piece of the current coaching staff.
I'd rather we start completely new and keep nothing at all from it. We've always tried to retool this or that, or the other while trying to keep "continuity."
And that's what we've ended up with... continuity of losing.
There is no fact that the Jags have moved on from Coughlin. All that has been said is Khan and Coughlin talked Wednesday. That is all. We will know more next week.