Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Not sure why some people are getting offended by other people not caring for what Colin had to say.  If those other people feel that way it's up to them.  Doesn't stop anyone else from being a fan of Colin.

Quote:Not sure why some people are getting offended by other people not caring for what Colin had to say.  If those other people feel that way it's up to them.  Doesn't stop anyone else from being a fan of Colin.

 

Sounds like you care  :thumbsup:

Quote:Not sure why people get offended by this. If he feels that way it's up to him. Doesn't stop anyone else loving their country.

Quote:Do you not make decisions on where you spend your money based on what the company/person does or stands for?


I already answered your "intelligence" response question in my original post. Go re-read it if you didn't catch it.


A protest will likely always rub someone the wrong way. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Colin does not like the oppression of minorities, if someone from the jags voiced the same opinion and they did not cut them you would consider cancelling your tix. Going by your first paragraph it appears you would not spend money with the jags according to their stance. This is why I was asking you questions, not to antagonize you but to better understand your position (btw even if you are in favor of racial oppression,not saying you are, it's not going to make me respond to you in a different manner).


You've placed intelligence in quotes, but I only used that word because you used it in your initial post. If there was a purpose to doing that please let me know. I did understand your initial post, I just didn't understand how standing on principle when you have something to lose is "dumb".


What it has to do with the price of tea in China is what is important enough for someone to speak out about? This has the potential for you to no longer be a season ticket holder if any jag players cosign without retribution from the team. So I'm curious what someone could speak out about without you having to take those measures?


If I've caused any offense by asking you to clarify the things you've said, I apologize now. I would rather ask you questions than to put words in your mouth.

Quote:Sounds like you care  :thumbsup:

 

You took the time to post.  Twice now.

Quote:Colin does not like the oppression of minorities, if someone from the jags voiced the same opinion and they did not cut them you would consider cancelling your tix. Going by your first paragraph it appears you would not spend money with the jags according to their stance. This is why I was asking you questions, not to antagonize you but to better understand your position (btw even if you are in favor of racial oppression,not saying you are, it's not going to make me respond to you in a different manner).


You've placed intelligence in quotes, but I only used that word because you used it in your initial post. If there was a purpose to doing that please let me know. I did understand your initial post, I just didn't understand how standing on principle when you have something to lose is "dumb".


What it has to do with the price of tea in China is what is important enough for someone to speak out about? This has the potential for you to no longer be a season ticket holder if any jag players cosign without retribution from the team. So I'm curious what someone could speak out about without you having to take those measures?


If I've caused any offense by asking you to clarify the things you've said, I apologize now. I would rather ask you questions than to put words in your mouth.

 

No offense taken, but you wrote a lot here and I still didn't get an answer to my question.

 

I realize I used the intelligence term first.  The quotes were just a means of tagging the line of questioning.  Not meant to offend you.

 

What do I not find acceptable in a protest?   Well what are Colin's terms exactly?  What is he asking for specifically?  What is his end game?  What thought provoking commentary did he offer?  The answer is he didn't give any of that.  It's not really even a protest comment by him.  It's more of him just washing his hands of this country and saying he's done with it/us.  Protesters are usually asking for something.  

 

Again, he's free to say it, just like anyone else is free to say that and feel that way, but if his employer feels the financial pressure brought on by his comments they have every right and even responsibility to act and make the best decision for the company.  He's the one that decided to say these things into a microphone which could affect the pockets of more people than just him.  That's pretty unintelligent if you ask me, especially when his income is based on the revenue taken in directly and indirectly from the NFL fan base and not all of his contract is guaranteed.  If I remember correctly, although the overall contract was pretty big, it's a very team friendly deal.  

 

He could always call another press conference to clarify his words, America is a forgiving nation, but he hasn't done that to this point.  I could ask those same questions above to the Black Lives Matter organization as well.  Their web site is full of platitudes but no specific road map to get there and no specific policy changes.  

 

Your line of questioning to this point has been hypocritical.  Colin shouldn't be questioned regarding his comments, but I should be questioned on how I spend my money?  Please answer my first question to you, clarify your stance or let's just move on.

Quote:No offense taken, but you wrote a lot here and I still didn't get an answer to my question.


I realize I used the intelligence term first. The quotes were just a means of tagging the line of questioning. Not meant to offend you.


What do I not find acceptable in a protest? Well what are Colin's terms exactly? What is he asking for specifically? What is his end game? What thought provoking commentary did he offer? The answer is he didn't give any of that. It's not really even a protest comment by him. It's more of him just washing his hands of this country and saying he's done with it/us. Protesters are usually asking for something.


Again, he's free to say it, just like anyone else is free to say that and feel that way, but if his employer feels the financial pressure brought on by his comments they have every right and even responsibility to act and make the best decision for the company. He's the one that decided to say these things into a microphone which could affect the pockets of more people than just him. That's pretty unintelligent if you ask me, especially when his income is based on the revenue taken in directly and indirectly from the NFL fan base and not all of his contract is guaranteed. If I remember correctly, although the overall contract was pretty big, it's a very team friendly deal.


He could always call another press conference to clarify his words, America is a forgiving nation, but he hasn't done that to this point. I could ask those same questions above to the Black Lives Matter organization as well. Their web site is full of platitudes but no specific road map to get there and no specific policy changes.


Your line of questioning to this point has been hypocritical. Colin shouldn't be questioned regarding his comments, but I should be questioned on how I spend my money? Please answer my first question to you, clarify your stance or let's just move on.

I didn't answer question, my apologies. You are free to spend your dollars how you see fit. You are also free to criticize as you see fit as is anyone here. I read here more than I post. Often, ppl don't ask questions about what ppl say here. They either insult and/or assume. I wanted to be sure I understood why you would take your dollars away because the way it read you either don't believe there is any oppression of minorities or you don't think players should speak out about it. I rather be sure I understand someone before forming an opinion.

Quote:I didn't answer question, my apologies. You are free to spend your dollars how you see fit. You are also free to criticize as you see fit as is anyone here. I read here more than I post. Often, ppl don't ask questions about what ppl say here. They either insult and/or assume. I wanted to be sure I understood why you would take your dollars away because the way it read you either don't believe there is any oppression of minorities or you don't think players should speak out about it. I rather be sure I understand someone before forming an opinion.

 

You still didn't answer my question.

 

Quote:Do you not make decisions on where you spend your money based on what the company/person does or stands for?   

Quote:You still didn't answer my question.

Me personally? No, there are some companies that do things I do not agree with and I either don't have an alternative or I cannot afford to not spend my money with that company.

Quote:Me personally? No, there are some companies that do things I do not agree with and I either don't have an alternative or I cannot afford to not spend my money with that company.

 

So you would.

 

Just out of curiosity, what's your solution?  What policies, if any, would you enact as President that you believe would change Colin's mind or anyone else that thinks like he does?  

Quote:So you would.


Just out of curiosity, what's your solution? What policies, if any, would you enact as President that you believe would change Colin's mind or anyone else that thinks like he does?

The change must be cultural not legislated. Civil rights legislation did not change the way ppl feel, it only made it illegal to openly do it. This is not going to be a quick fix. It's going to take time. There are a myriad of issues that need examination. The first step is to begin stepping out of our comfort zone and getting to know ppl outside our community. You'll find we have the same dreams, goals and desires as one another. We will need to walk a mile in each other's shoes. And we will have to work together. Propaganda works decidedly worse when ppl are well informed.

Its possible to have respect and love for your country and armed forces whilst still wanting to make a point about issues in society.

Quote:The change must be cultural not legislated. Civil rights legislation did not change the way ppl feel, it only made it illegal to openly do it. This is not going to be a quick fix. It's going to take time. There are a myriad of issues that need examination. The first step is to begin stepping out of our comfort zone and getting to know ppl outside our community. You'll find we have the same dreams, goals and desires as one another. We will need to walk a mile in each other's shoes. And we will have to work together. Propaganda works decidedly worse when ppl are well informed.

 

But how do you actually make that happen and should you even attempt to socially engineer a free society?  In a free society, it's really nobody's business to suggest or enforce who I spend my time with and that's not to suggest I don't spend a great deal of time with people of other races.  Your idea is still very short on details, much like the BLM website, and it might not even be ethical depending on what extent you're taking it to.  I would contend that if the entire world population intermingled and interbred into a single new race in 10's of thousands of years that we would still find ways to group ourselves and find confrontation between those groups.  Racial differences just happen to be the easiest and laziest way for people to group themselves.

 

The problem with BLM and Kaepernick's statement, as I mentioned earlier, is that they've requested no specific solution for their grievance.  It begs the question, do they even want the grievance solved or are they content to just being adversarial to American society as a whole?  I don't believe they're winning over any hearts and minds with their comments/actions so I have to believe they're more interested in just being adversarial just for the sake of it.  

Where's this generation's great black rights orator?  There's certainly no Dr. King equivalent anywhere to be found.  

They guy is just trying to stay in the media, he isnt good enough to hack it, and has regressed as an nfl qb. At this point its anything to stay relevant and in the news. Too entitled to realize he didnt work hard enough to be great so its someone elses fault. Victim mentality

Quote:But how do you actually make that happen and should you even attempt to socially engineer a free society? In a free society, it's really nobody's business to suggest or enforce who I spend my time with and that's not to suggest I don't spend a great deal of time with people of other races. Your idea is still very short on details, much like the BLM website, and it might not even be ethical depending on what extent you're taking it to. I would contend that if the entire world population intermingled and interbred into a single new race in 10's of thousands of years that we would still find ways to group ourselves and find confrontation between those groups. Racial differences just happen to be the easiest and laziest way for people to group themselves.


The problem with BLM and Kaepernick's statement, as I mentioned earlier, is that they've requested no specific solution for their grievance. It begs the question, do they even want the grievance solved or are they content to just being adversarial to American society as a whole? I don't believe they're winning over any hearts and minds with their comments/actions so I have to believe they're more interested in just being adversarial just for the sake of it.

Where's this generation's great black rights orator? There's certainly no Dr. King equivalent anywhere to be found.

I'm not talking about social engineering. I'm suggesting ppl spend more time with each other so you can truly know them, see how much alike we are. And I'm not sure where you're going with the ethical part. You asked me what I would do, then turned around and said it's nobody's business to suggest or enforce who you spend your time with. This makes it seem as if you didn't want an answer to your question. When poor blacks and whites are housed in the same areas, there teens to be less racial animus because everyone has to rely on each other.


I'm not trying to enforce anything as I said I'm strictly against any legislation dictating it. I'm short on details because we're on a message board and you couldn't think I was going to lay out an elaborate plan for combating racism. You mentioned BLM and Colin being possibly interested in only being adversarial but have yourself have rejected an idea that has no adversarial tenets. Lastly, we are not in need of some great leader, other groups seemed to be doing fine without one. Careful asking after Dr. King, the last of his speeches didn't sound like the ones they teach you in school. The world is what we make it.


If you don't want racial harmony, just say that and be proud. What BLM and Colin are talking about isn't grouping or a categorization of races. They are talking about oppression. If you would like to turn a blind eye, be my guest. If you want to know what's really happening you'll have to visit the ppl it's happening to. You asked me for answer, I gave you one but if you read your response, you're as guilty of not wanting a solution at the frequency of those you accuse.


Btw, I started a thread titled "food for thought on our perceived racial divide." It contains an article detailing the birth of racism in this country. Not that I should have to say this but it's not written from the perspective of a minority. I guess I fear you'll ignore it if it's written by someone who black.

Quote:I'm not talking about social engineering. I'm suggesting ppl spend more time with each other so you can truly know them, see how much alike we are. And I'm not sure where you're going with the ethical part. You asked me what I would do, then turned around and said it's nobody's business to suggest or enforce who you spend your time with. This makes it seem as if you didn't want an answer to your question. When poor blacks and whites are housed in the same areas, there teens to be less racial animus because everyone has to rely on each other.


I'm not trying to enforce anything as I said I'm strictly against any legislation dictating it. I'm short on details because we're on a message board and you couldn't think I was going to lay out an elaborate plan for combating racism. You mentioned BLM and Colin being possibly interested in only being adversarial but have yourself have rejected an idea that has no adversarial tenets. Lastly, we are not in need of some great leader, other groups seemed to be doing fine without one. Careful asking after Dr. King, the last of his speeches didn't sound like the ones they teach you in school. The world is what we make it.


If you don't want racial harmony, just say that and be proud. What BLM and Colin are talking about isn't grouping or a categorization of races. They are talking about oppression. If you would like to turn a blind eye, be my guest. If you want to know what's really happening you'll have to visit the ppl it's happening to. You asked me for answer, I gave you one but if you read your response, you're as guilty of not wanting a solution at the frequency of those you accuse.


Btw, I started a thread titled "food for thought on our perceived racial divide." It contains an article detailing the birth of racism in this country. Not that I should have to say this but it's not written from the perspective of a minority. I guess I fear you'll ignore it if it's written by someone who black.

 

I asked how you would make "people spend more time together" (nice platitude) and you flew off the handle and now I'm apparently a racist.  If you can't articulate and defend your own idea, maybe it's time to come up with a new one or withhold judgement.

Quote:Well, I'll wait with an open ear for what you have to say. Hopefully you'll include how these things were able to get you involved.


Also, I'm all about open and honest dialog. You seem to want to limit divisiveness so hopefully you'll refrain from using divisive terms like "progressives." From what I tell from your post so far, the issue in black communities seems to be complex. I didn't detect your issue with Colin's protest as being too overly simplistic, but you'll educate me I'm sure. I'd also love it if you could tell me what the "sides" are.

 

I'd like to clarify a misconception.  A fact is not divisive.  Microaggressions, cultural appropriation and other similar concepts are only used by a certain segment of the Democratic party (or independents that are left of the Democratic party) that tend to refer to themselves as progressives.  That is a fact.  Like most political terms, it is a word that is constantly evolving.  If you want to debate the definition of the word, you could do so with some success, but I am using it to refer to that particular group.  I think they mean well, but by their own nature, many of the concepts they focus on look for differences, not similarities among various social groups.  I say that not to demonize a group of people, but to shed light on how a group of people may be doing something that I believe to be harmful by sharing ideas that are, by their nature, divisive. 

 

As for how I got involved in this issue, I will give you the short version: I was a teacher several years ago in a school that was predominantly Hispanic.  The interesting thing about it was that half of the kids were native Texans from upper middle class families, and the other half were sons and daughters of immigrants or second generation immigrants who came out of impoverished neighborhoods.  They had completely different cultures and values.  The native Texans had more in common with what would be seen as traditional upper middle class white values, and the recently immigrated children shared more in common with stereotypical impoverished black communities.  While I have always believed socioeconomic status played a role in shaping values, it wasn't until I worked there that I realized how deeply it shaped the outlook of young kids.  You even saw discrimination and bias among the students based on their status.  

 

There's more, but that's the short version.  I don't teach anymore, but I use my experiences (including my years at predominantly black schools) to help people understand why low income blacks might have a different perspective than upper class whites.  Also, I feel the need to clarify:  When I speak of blacks, I am only referring, generally, about impoverished black communities.  It is unfair to apply any stereotypes to individuals, and I think it's often an inhibitor when it comes to racial discussions.  I am painting with a broad brush, fully aware that there are exceptions.

Also, I think we are not taking into account regional difference with regard to Colin Kaepernick.  There are like 3 people in San Francisco that got upset at Colin him for refusing to stand for the anthem.  I say that tongue-in-cheek, but in all fairness, he will lose very little support in California.  He could be marketing, even.  

Quote:I'd like to clarify a misconception. A fact is not divisive. Microaggressions, cultural appropriation and other similar concepts are only used by a certain segment of the Democratic party (or independents that are left of the Democratic party) that tend to refer to themselves as progressives. That is a fact. Like most political terms, it is a word that is constantly evolving. If you want to debate the definition of the word, you could do so with some success, but I am using it to refer to that particular group. I think they mean well, but by their own nature, many of the concepts they focus on look for differences, not similarities among various social groups. I say that not to demonize a group of people, but to shed light on how a group of people may be doing something that I believe to be harmful by sharing ideas that are, by their nature, divisive.


As for how I got involved in this issue, I will give you the short version: I was a teacher several years ago in a school that was predominantly Hispanic. The interesting thing about it was that half of the kids were native Texans from upper middle class families, and the other half were sons and daughters of immigrants or second generation immigrants who came out of impoverished neighborhoods. They had completely different cultures and values. The native Texans had more in common with what would be seen as traditional upper middle class white values, and the recently immigrated children shared more in common with stereotypical impoverished black communities. While I have always believed socioeconomic status played a role in shaping values, it wasn't until I worked there that I realized how deeply it shaped the outlook of young kids. You even saw discrimination and bias among the students based on their status.


There's more, but that's the short version. I don't teach anymore, but I use my experiences (including my years at predominantly black schools) to help people understand why low income blacks might have a different perspective than upper class whites. Also, I feel the need to clarify: When I speak of blacks, I am only referring, generally, about impoverished black communities. It is unfair to apply any stereotypes to individuals, and I think it's often an inhibitor when it comes to racial discussions. I am painting with a broad brush, fully aware that there are exceptions.

Thanks for clarifying. Whether or not I ultimately agree with your experiences, I do feel you need to share them. The more we talk, assuming things are civil, the more we can learn. As a teacher, there's a lot more you can offer in perspective than I can because in a way you've spent more time observing.

Quote:I asked how you would make "people spend more time together" (nice platitude) and you flew off the handle and now I'm apparently a racist. If you can't articulate and defend your own idea, maybe it's time to come up with a new one or withhold judgement.

Spending time together can be playing chess with a stranger in the park or striking up a conversation with someone you wouldn't normally talk to. "Nice platitude" thanks???


At this point I'm convinced you aren't reading what I'm saying, which is also okay. I didn't call you a racist and if I didn't articulate well enough with several paragraphs, not sure how in depth you wanted my plan to be. I may not have been succinct but I didn't mince words. I actually reread to be sure. Whatever your position on race relations you're welcomed to have, but it's not going require a master plan to conquer. It'll take ppl treating ppl humanely and civilly.