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Considering we still have 5 of our top 6 pass catchers from last year and replaced the one we released with a similar but younger and more athletic player, it's at worst a wash.

(03-20-2018, 11:19 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:17 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Nope. Robinson didn't play at all last year. Hurns hasn't played a full season since 2015, where he and Robinson essentially racked up garbage time statistics. And the last time I recalled Robinson on the field before the ACL he was dropping passes or tipping them up into the air for INT's. So I don't get where people think we've downgraded at the position this off season. 

We won games WITHOUT them. We were in a Championship game with TWO ROOKIES at WR playing on the field. I think I'll trust this front office's judgement and personnel decisions more than what anybody around here thinks. Lee outperformed Hurns in 2016 and Robinson was "slightly" better than him statistically. 

This was during Bradley's final year before the offense was to be completely revamped and changed to an old school offense. It's pretty clear what the goal is now on offense. Power run game with heavy TE involvement and the dictation of opposing defenses in hopes of opening up the play action game with our smaller, more quick and faster receivers that can get downfield in a hurry. 

And, again. We still have the draft next month. People seem to keep forgetting this. Plenty of tall, physical, "go up and get it" type of receivers in this year's class. We very well may see Caldwell & Coughlin go after one of them on opening night if they don't have a trade in mind to move up to land a premium player at a different position.

I understand what you're saying but how likely is it that we repeat that same outcome?

"We made it to the AFCCG with Blake and no ARob and rookies! We don't need anyone else!"

Well we made it to the AFCCG without Norwell so why did we sign him?

We got Norwell to win the AFCCG to put forth a massive running attack that isnt stoped in 1 yard when we are up 10 with 5 mins to go.

(03-20-2018, 11:44 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:40 AM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]This is simply poor optics.

Without ARob, we didn't skip a beat.  No drop off.  That's not to say we don't "need" anyone else... yes, we certainly did need a guard, and we got the best on the market.

We didn't "need" ARob.  Would it have been nice to keep him.  Certainly.

But he simply was not a "need."

That being said.  You're smart enough to realize that there's no correlation even though that's what you're reaching for here with the misuse of the term "need" in your "We don't need anyone else!" strawman, which no one said ever.

So nitpicking on the word "need" I see. Great to have you back lol

The problem with one-sided arguments like yours that refuse the big picture, is that you resort to such spin to try and cling to a lesser position.  Life, and the truth, is richer and deeper than a few cute sound bites.

(03-20-2018, 11:18 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:15 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]Because a few weeks ago we could use the cap space to get a good FA, at this point there are no big FAs left that would make us better.

So assuming we kept him, where does Hurns fit on the depth chart?

Lee
Moncrief
Cole
Westbrook
Mickens
Rookie

...Hurns.

A rookie and Mickens over Hurns? Lol

(03-20-2018, 11:47 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:27 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]How are you putting Mickens and a Rookie ahead of Hurns...
We dont have a Nr1 guy so we would have probably used different sets and rotations.

At least keep some depth with guys fighting for the starting Positions and get some competition going to get the most out of guys. Our receiving core is already terrible, our QB is terrible, I just dont think we are in a position to cut WRs and replace them with rookies and special teamers.
Again, I dont consider Hurns to be anything special, but to cut him now after FA and before camp just doesnt really make a lot of sense.

Mickens is our punt returner (and a good one) so he takes up one WR slot. He's not as good a receiver as Hurns, but did reasonably well when the Jags were forced to use him there. He would be kept instead of Hurns if it came to a decision between the two was just based on play, and his contract is a lot cheaper too.

"Rookie" may not be a real thing. OTOH, if the Jags draft a rookie (or find still another undrafted star) who looks reasonably good, he would be kept as a cheap developmental player over the #4 or #5 receiver.

Agreed.

The Jags have been looking at a lot of WRs in this draft if you pay any attention to the draftniks around the interwebs. I think it will be safe to assume we will be drafting a WR at some point during the 3 day event. That additional body leaves one less roster spot for Hurns.

(03-20-2018, 11:47 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:36 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Lol it won't be easy.

The argument that we did it without them so we can do it again is a pretty bad one.

No, it's not a bad argument at all. It's actually factual. If you can do it without them. Why can it not be repeated? They literally played ZERO [BLEEP] role in us getting there last year. And, again. If the defense stays intact and they continue to run the football while emphasizing the TE's involvement more through the air and with blocking. It'll even and level itself out on offense. 

And I am going to trust this staff and the front office after what they managed to pull off last year. There's no reason for anybody around here to be so damned down and out this off season. And, once again, there's still a draft to add more playmakers....

I'm not down and out about this off season. I like some of the moves. Just because it worked one season, doesn't mean it will work again. The Jags had a lot of things go well for them last year. Minimal injuries, 8 defensive TDs, an awful division and an easy schedule. As of now, the AFC South should be better.

Now if Watson and Luck get hurt again, our defensive starters miss a combined 1 game again and the defense scores 8 TDs again then sure... Jags can repeat.

I think our run game will be improved and I think Blake will improve (even if it's only a little). The draft is coming but not sure we can count on rookies considering the only opening right now for a rookie would be at linebacker. All other starters are in place.

(03-20-2018, 11:35 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:29 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Easy. Defense keeps kicking [BLEEP] and taking names. And those rookies from last year should all be better now going into their 2nd years as a unit. Lee, Cole and Westbrook should be able to handle the load. Especially if we start using the TE position more and keep the ground game going. And again, I can't stress this enough. We still have the draft...

Our Offense at this point is absolutely terrible for a team trying to make it to the AFCCG again. We have the worst QB in our division/below average NFL QB, our receiving core are 2 Sophmores and an average guy in Lee that has had difficulties holding on to the ball last year. ASJ is one DUI away from being out of the league and he hasnt been able to reach his potential anywhere else. I mean come on, I understand our defense is good but we also lost Colvin and Poz and the other Teams in our division greatly improved their Defense as well as already having better offensive players in key positions.
I think "Run the ball and good D" just wont cut it in the NFL if you want to make it to a Superbowl imo. There are too many IFs (Cole and Westbrook need to get better, ASJ needs to have an immediate impact, Lee has to stop dropping the ball etc...). Thats not the healthiest way to build a contender...

How do you figure that? We like to run the ball, control the clock and control the tempo. And they want to continue to rely on the defense to get it done. They're focusing more on improved blocking and adding more TE involvement to keep opponents on their toes defensively. I think people are too focused on WR and not looking at the overall picture and scheme of the offense right now. Especially when we still have the draft next month. 

ASJ seems to have gotten his [BLEEP] together. And that was in New York. If he can behave himself in that city with it's temptations and ease of access he should be fine here. If not, guess what? Next man up. We lost Colvin and replaced him with Hayden. Poz retired. And, once again. WE...STILL...HAVE...THE...[BLEEP]...DRAFT.... 

Lee needs to stop dropping the ball. I agree. He'll get better. But people act like Robinson wasn't playing volleyball in 2016 when the football was around him. And Hurns wasn't a sure handed catcher either. I think people just need to stop being so damned negative this off season. It's like Gus Bradley is still in the building or something...

[BLEEP]. R-E-L-A-X.

(03-20-2018, 11:48 AM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]Considering we still have 5 of our top 6 pass catchers from last year and replaced the one we released with a similar but younger and more athletic player, it's at worst a wash.

Many times, especially when our emotions override our intellect when we allow it, we talk ourselves out of the correct answer.

Passion, not common sense, is what fuels such arguments.

We are no worse off, and the offseason has only just begun.  Not all are calm enough to understand this, particularly if their favorites aren't on the team any longer.  That's another lesson as well about getting too tied to players - they come and go.  Team remains.

(03-20-2018, 11:49 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:18 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]So assuming we kept him, where does Hurns fit on the depth chart?

Lee
Moncrief
Cole
Westbrook
Mickens
Rookie

...Hurns.

A rookie and Mickens over Hurns? Lol

That wasn't a depth chart. Order it however you like. Even still he would be the # 4-5 wideout correct?

(03-20-2018, 11:53 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:49 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]A rookie and Mickens over Hurns? Lol

That wasn't a depth chart. Order it however you like. Even still he would be the # 4-5 wideout correct?

Not if healthy and the last game we played he finally looked healthy and was our best WR

Jags cutting the guy who crawled off the field to save the Jags a 10 second runoff in the Chargers game, a vital play in an improbable win. A very tough, high IQ, and hardworking player. Productive when healthy, problem is he has had trouble staying healthy. Signed a guy in FA who dances after every catch and has had effort issues in the past. Oh and signed him to a fully guaranteed contract so he doesn't need to show effort to get his payday. I understand why Hurns is gone, but Hurns is exactly the type of player the Jags want for their team identity. Real sad to see him go.

(03-20-2018, 11:47 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:27 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]How are you putting Mickens and a Rookie ahead of Hurns...
We dont have a Nr1 guy so we would have probably used different sets and rotations.

At least keep some depth with guys fighting for the starting Positions and get some competition going to get the most out of guys. Our receiving core is already terrible, our QB is terrible, I just dont think we are in a position to cut WRs and replace them with rookies and special teamers.
Again, I dont consider Hurns to be anything special, but to cut him now after FA and before camp just doesnt really make a lot of sense.

Mickens is our punt returner (and a good one) so he takes up one WR slot. He's not as good a receiver as Hurns, but did reasonably well when the Jags were forced to use him there. He would be kept instead of Hurns if it came to a decision between the two was just based on play, and his contract is a lot cheaper too.

"Rookie" may not be a real thing. OTOH, if the Jags draft a rookie (or find still another undrafted star) who looks reasonably good, he would be kept as a cheap developmental player over the #4 or #5 receiver.

I know Mickens does well on special teams, but idk if the few times he played WR justify putting him over Hurns from a pure WR standpoint.

(03-20-2018, 11:48 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:27 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]How are you putting Mickens and a Rookie ahead of Hurns...
We dont have a Nr1 guy so we would have probably used different sets and rotations.

At least keep some depth with guys fighting for the starting Positions and get some competition going to get the most out of guys. receiving core is already terrible, our QB is terrible, I just dont think we are in a position to cut WRs and replace them with rookies and special teamers.
Again, I dont consider Hurns to be anything special, but to cut him now after FA and before camp just doesnt really make a lot of sense.

You can order the depth chart all you like but it is what it is. At BEST Hurns is the 3rd best WR on the team. In reality is he's more likely the 4th or 5th WR on the team. That's hard justify paying 7 mil for, especially "just to keep depth".

I dont think the difference in quality between Lee, Moncreif and Hurns is that wide, and both of them got paid more than Hurns. Bottom line is we have a weak receiving core, any rookie in the draft will take the 4th or 5th receiver slot, rather than being a top receiver for us immediately.
I would take hurns over a rookie WR and use our pick for something else.

But again, the timing is just weird imo. Cutting him earlier might have left more space to retain colvin for example. Therefore I just dont get this move at this time.

(03-20-2018, 11:52 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:35 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]Our Offense at this point is absolutely terrible for a team trying to make it to the AFCCG again. We have the worst QB in our division/below average NFL QB, our receiving core are 2 Sophmores and an average guy in Lee that has had difficulties holding on to the ball last year. ASJ is one DUI away from being out of the league and he hasnt been able to reach his potential anywhere else. I mean come on, I understand our defense is good but we also lost Colvin and Poz and the other Teams in our division greatly improved their Defense as well as already having better offensive players in key positions.
I think "Run the ball and good D" just wont cut it in the NFL if you want to make it to a Superbowl imo. There are too many IFs (Cole and Westbrook need to get better, ASJ needs to have an immediate impact, Lee has to stop dropping the ball etc...). Thats not the healthiest way to build a contender...

How do you figure that? We like to run the ball, control the clock and control the tempo. And they want to continue to rely on the defense to get it done. They're focusing more on improved blocking and adding more TE involvement to keep opponents on their toes defensively. I think people are too focused on WR and not looking at the overall picture and scheme of the offense right now. Especially when we still have the draft next month. 

ASJ seems to have gotten his [BLEEP] together. And that was in New York. If he can behave himself in that city with it's temptations and ease of access he should be fine here. If not, guess what? Next man up. We lost Colvin and replaced him with Hayden. Poz retired. And, once again. WE...STILL...HAVE...THE...[BLEEP]...DRAFT.... 

Lee needs to stop dropping the ball. I agree. He'll get better. But people act like Robinson wasn't playing volleyball in 2016 when the football was around him. And Hurns wasn't a sure handed catcher either. I think people just need to stop being so damned negative this off season. It's like Gus Bradley is still in the building or something...

[BLEEP]. R-E-L-A-X.

Idk how many holes you are trying to fix in the draft, and also I think you are overrating the impact a rookie will have on this team. You wann draft TE, WR, MLB, Nickel? How deep do you think this draft is? Anything after round 2-3 will be backups that will need some time before thinking of starting for a team with playoff ambitions.
And sorry for thinking that in the NFL, you will not win big if your QB cant perform in 2 minute offense in addition to having mediocre receivers. And again, relying on the defense is fine, but the other teams in our division are getting better and if they can stay healthy, our defense alone will just not be enough to make the playoffs. Its not about being negative, you have to be realistic and not just presume that things will go exactly like they went last year.
We need to get better, and so far, aside from Norwell and maybe ASJ if you give him the benefit of the doubt, we didnt get better at any other position. Arguably, we got worse by loosing Colvin and Robinson.
We can add depth to the team through the draft, but its not gonna elevate us to new levels.

Also, we now basically replaced Hurns with Moncreif and payed the latter more.

That's fine. He was NEVER drafted. His former offensive coordinator gave him a job. Naturally, he did better within the scheme he was familiar with. Yet when that scheme went away the Jaguars were left with a guy unable to live up to a hefty contract, which was certainly far too much, too soon.

The story at NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...llen-hurns

(03-20-2018, 11:18 AM)BklynJag Wrote: [ -> ]I think this tweet hits the nail on the head

"The Jacksonville Jaguars. Home of 5 unproven WR’s with an average QB. Yay"

Did you steal that from TMD?

Hurns is one big concussion away from possibly not being able to play football.

He saw less play time last year when he was available because Cole and Westbrook were coming up big. Those guys are only going to get better and they don't hit us for 7 mil each.

Moncrief will give us at least the production of hurns is my guess, but he has way more upside. 

And you can't have it both ways. If bortles is meh and average then those receivers have to be making him look good? Because they were putting up numbers and the ball was getting spread out to a lot of guys.

So if you're saying our receivers aren't good, then that must mean that bortles is elevating their play and making them look better than they are. 

I guess we need a resident whiner anyway. So keep on trollin.

(03-20-2018, 10:32 AM)BklynJag Wrote: [ -> ]So would everyone agree we got worse at the WR position so far this offseason?

No. The WR corps are NOT worse. They were never really good. Read the comments that accompany the article. As you do, you will note that outside of Jacksonville players such as Hurns take up a certain LESS value.

Hurns is being considered by teams looking for a third WR.

The Jaguars' PR people are pros at getting people to like lousy football. The booze hounds like the free booze and the free food, plus they love to feel the sense that they are throwing their own weight around with personnel moves.

(03-20-2018, 11:40 AM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:19 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]"We made it to the AFCCG with Blake and no ARob and rookies! We don't need anyone else!"

Well we made it to the AFCCG without Norwell so why did we sign him?

This is simply poor optics.

Without ARob, we didn't skip a beat.  No drop off.  That's not to say we don't "need" anyone else... yes, we certainly did need a guard, and we got the best on the market.

We didn't "need" ARob.  Would it have been nice to keep him.  Certainly.

But he simply was not a "need."

That being said.  You're smart enough to realize that there's no correlation even though that's what you're reaching for here with the misuse of the term "need" in your "We don't need anyone else!" strawman, which no one said ever.

Didn't skip a beat?  No drop off?  From what?  The first 2 offensive plays of the regular season?  We lost A Rob basically IMMEDIATELY.

I'm sorry... did we win the Super Bowl?  No?  Would a true #1 WR who demands attention and would have prevented teams from completely stacking the box have helped?  Yeah?  Hmm... I suppose maybe we DID need him to get past New England... since... you know... we didn't.... mostly because our offense couldn't move the ball in the 2nd half.  A Rob wouldn't have helped with that at all, though.

A Rob is old news though.

Hurns... I just don't understand the cut.  The timing of it leaves me baffled.  Had they done so at the start of FA, sure, makes sense, freeing up room to sign guys with.

March 20th?  Umm... ok... so you kept him on the roster during the FA Frenzy, preventing him from getting in on the action... and you didn't have to pay him any Guaranteed... and there's no one really imminent to be signed right now... so... what?

The only thing that I can come up with is we want to roll it over to next year, but again... why not just do it at the start of FA, have that money available, and allow Hurns to hit the market when it was hottest?


If you asked me to choose between Robinson, Hurns, and Lee... Lee would have been the first cut.  Yet... somehow butterfingers go himself a sweet new deal, and both Allens are shown the door.

Having a hard time keeping the faith this month.

(03-20-2018, 12:02 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:53 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]That wasn't a depth chart. Order it however you like. Even still he would be the # 4-5 wideout correct?

Not if healthy and the last game we played he finally looked healthy and was our best WR

"If if's and but's...."

I liked Hurns but he was oft injured. Now that we actually have a roster that most of us wouldn't trade with many other teams, we will have to learn to lose some names we like. It will probably be far worst next year. I really don't see the Allens as a major loss but who knows, they may both become dominant for other teams.

(03-20-2018, 12:26 PM)Diz Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:40 AM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]This is simply poor optics.

Without ARob, we didn't skip a beat.  No drop off.  That's not to say we don't "need" anyone else... yes, we certainly did need a guard, and we got the best on the market.

We didn't "need" ARob.  Would it have been nice to keep him.  Certainly.

But he simply was not a "need."

That being said.  You're smart enough to realize that there's no correlation even though that's what you're reaching for here with the misuse of the term "need" in your "We don't need anyone else!" strawman, which no one said ever.

Didn't skip a beat?  No drop off?  From what?  The first 2 offensive plays of the regular season?  We lost A Rob basically IMMEDIATELY.

I'm sorry... did we win the Super Bowl?  No?  Would a true #1 WR who demands attention and would have prevented teams from completely stacking the box have helped?  Yeah?  Hmm... I suppose maybe we DID need him to get past New England... since... you know... we didn't.... mostly because our offense couldn't move the ball in the 2nd half.  A Rob wouldn't have helped with that at all, though.

A Rob is old news though.

Hurns... I just don't understand the cut.  The timing of it leaves me baffled.  Had they done so at the start of FA, sure, makes sense, freeing up room to sign guys with.

March 20th?  Umm... ok... so you kept him on the roster during the FA Frenzy, preventing him from getting in on the action... and you didn't have to pay him any Guaranteed... and there's no one really imminent to be signed right now... so... what?

The only thing that I can come up with is we want to roll it over to next year, but again... why not just do it at the start of FA, have that money available, and allow Hurns to hit the market when it was hottest?


If you asked me to choose between Robinson, Hurns, and Lee... Lee would have been the first cut.  Yet... somehow butterfingers go himself a sweet new deal, and both Allens are shown the door.

Having a hard time keeping the faith this month.

People keep saying that....we should have cut him earlier so we could have used the money to sign a different WR....

Maybe the jags front office likes the group we have? Maybe they don't want to invest anymore in WRs? 

Such a short sighted stance coming from so many people. 

I liked hurns. Great dude, played his heart out for us. I wish him luck wherever he lands, but the NFL isnt the place to let personal feelings override smart business. These guys are trying to win a championship.

(03-20-2018, 12:26 PM)Diz Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:40 AM)pirkster Wrote: [ -> ]This is simply poor optics.

Without ARob, we didn't skip a beat.  No drop off.  That's not to say we don't "need" anyone else... yes, we certainly did need a guard, and we got the best on the market.

We didn't "need" ARob.  Would it have been nice to keep him.  Certainly.

But he simply was not a "need."

That being said.  You're smart enough to realize that there's no correlation even though that's what you're reaching for here with the misuse of the term "need" in your "We don't need anyone else!" strawman, which no one said ever.

Didn't skip a beat?  No drop off?  From what?  The first 2 offensive plays of the regular season?  We lost A Rob basically IMMEDIATELY.

I'm sorry... did we win the Super Bowl?  No?  Would a true #1 WR who demands attention and would have prevented teams from completely stacking the box have helped?  Yeah?  Hmm... I suppose maybe we DID need him to get past New England... since... you know... we didn't.... mostly because our offense couldn't move the ball in the 2nd half.  A Rob wouldn't have helped with that at all, though.

A Rob is old news though.

Hurns... I just don't understand the cut.  The timing of it leaves me baffled.  Had they done so at the start of FA, sure, makes sense, freeing up room to sign guys with.

March 20th?  Umm... ok... so you kept him on the roster during the FA Frenzy, preventing him from getting in on the action... and you didn't have to pay him any Guaranteed... and there's no one really imminent to be signed right now... so... what?

The only thing that I can come up with is we want to roll it over to next year, but again... why not just do it at the start of FA, have that money available, and allow Hurns to hit the market when it was hottest?


If you asked me to choose between Robinson, Hurns, and Lee... Lee would have been the first cut.  Yet... somehow butterfingers go himself a sweet new deal, and both Allens are shown the door.

Having a hard time keeping the faith this month.

Amen
+1