Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(03-21-2018, 10:15 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 07:34 PM)J-Mizzal Wrote: [ -> ]We made it to the AFC title game without Robinson and Hurns doing not much

Lee, DeDe, Cole, and Moncrief are fine for are offense DeDe might breakout this year, we may still draft a WR

When will people stop using this logic of: "we did it without them last year so we can easily do it without them again". That is not how the NFL works, other teams were injured and are getting better/adjusting. We also had to adjust our gameplan last year to suit the guys we had, which, btw, ended up costing us the AFCCG.

Our inability to run the football when we wanted to in the 2nd half cost us that AFCCG. Also a handful of poor calls and no calls all in favor of New England (which was widely discussed in the MSM where they called out the BLATANT favoritism) cost us that AFCCG. But, again. I guess you know more than Coughlin (Giants 2x) and Marrone (NOLA 1x as the OC) who both helped coach or assist in building Superbowl winning teams.

(03-21-2018, 08:11 AM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:40 PM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]Hurns was more of a playmaker than Lee,  Marquis ain't making that diving catch in London.  Unfortunately injuries have made Hurns a shell of his former self, he isn't nearly has fast or agile as he used to be.  Lee isn't undervalued, he just isn't that good, guy is the definition of mediocre.  He can only do crossing routes, led the nfl in drops, and is irrelevant when a corner that isn't terrible is covering him.

Everything you just said either reeks of bias, or again, you don't know what you're talking about. Lee is easily more of a playmaker than hurns. He has more playmaking ability, more speed, more yac ability, he's quicker, jumps higher, etc.

Hurns is a passionate football player, clutch, great on third downs but he doesn't have close to Lee's athletic ability.

---

LMAO yes my post reeks of bias, you mean facts? I'm far from biased compared to others here.  Does Marquis Lee seriously have fans? Explain how Lee has more playmaking ability, there is no truth to it.  Lee has 8 career touchdowns, Hurns has 21.  Hurns has a 1000 yards season, Lee has zero.  Hurns has multiple touchdowns and catches that are 50+ yards, you'd have to dig deep into the internet to find a Marquis Lee catch 50 yards or longer.  I was being generous calling Lee mediocre, he's a bad receiver being force fed the ball on crossing routes.  He can't make plays on any other routes.  I don't even care that Allen Hurns was cut but the only thing that stopped him were injuries, Lee being a naturally better playmaker than him is laughable.

Lee doesn't have better yac ability either, Lee being faster means nothing and he isn't even all that faster.  He ran a 4.52, Hurns ran a 4.55.  There are zero plays of Lee running away from anybody.  You can find one of Hurns in 10 seconds.  



Lee would of ran out of bounds like he always does.

(03-21-2018, 10:57 AM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 08:11 AM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]Everything you just said either reeks of bias, or again, you don't know what you're talking about. Lee is easily more of a playmaker than hurns. He has more playmaking ability, more speed, more yac ability, he's quicker, jumps higher, etc.

Hurns is a passionate football player, clutch, great on third downs but he doesn't have close to Lee's athletic ability.

---

LMAO yes my post reeks of bias, you mean facts? I'm far from biased compared to others here.  Does Marquis Lee seriously have fans? Explain how Lee has more playmaking ability, there is no truth to it.  Lee has 8 career touchdowns, Hurns has 21.  Hurns has a 1000 yards season, Lee has zero.  Hurns has multiple touchdowns and catches that are 50+ yards, you'd have to dig deep into the internet to find a Marquis Lee catch 50 yards or longer.  I was being generous calling Lee mediocre, he's a bad receiver being force fed the ball on crossing routes.  He can't make plays on any other routes.  I don't even care that Allen Hurns was cut but the only thing that stopped him were injuries, Lee being a naturally better playmaker than him is laughable.

Lee doesn't have better yac ability either, Lee being faster means nothing and he isn't even all that faster.  He ran a 4.52, Hurns ran a 4.55.  There are zero plays of Lee running away from anybody.  You can find one of Hurns in 10 seconds.  



Lee would of ran out of bounds like he always does.

You say all that but opportunity doesn't correlate to ability. Lee was fairly healthy last year and he had a good season, made a lot of clutch catches, and hurns hasn't done anything for the jags in a while. 

Either way, Lee got the new deal and hurns got asked to take less money. 

Maybe you're smarter than the front office though.

(03-21-2018, 10:57 AM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 08:11 AM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]Everything you just said either reeks of bias, or again, you don't know what you're talking about. Lee is easily more of a playmaker than hurns. He has more playmaking ability, more speed, more yac ability, he's quicker, jumps higher, etc.

Hurns is a passionate football player, clutch, great on third downs but he doesn't have close to Lee's athletic ability.

---

LMAO yes my post reeks of bias, you mean facts? I'm far from biased compared to others here.  Does Marquis Lee seriously have fans? Explain how Lee has more playmaking ability, there is no truth to it.  Lee has 8 career touchdowns, Hurns has 21.  Hurns has a 1000 yards season, Lee has zero.  Hurns has multiple touchdowns and catches that are 50+ yards, you'd have to dig deep into the internet to find a Marquis Lee catch 50 yards or longer.  I was being generous calling Lee mediocre, he's a bad receiver being force fed the ball on crossing routes.  He can't make plays on any other routes.  I don't even care that Allen Hurns was cut but the only thing that stopped him were injuries, Lee being a naturally better playmaker than him is laughable.

Lee doesn't have better yac ability either, Lee being faster means nothing and he isn't even all that faster.  He ran a 4.52, Hurns ran a 4.55.  There are zero plays of Lee running away from anybody.  You can find one of Hurns in 10 seconds.  



Lee would of ran out of bounds like he always does.

Down by 34 points and he makes a "play" against a defense that was clearly playing soft and letting up with 7:00 minutes left in the game. That was probably his rookie season or the year Luck wasn't playing. Or that actually looks like the game where Henne was pulled for Bortles.

This is why I laugh at you fools that keep circling back to 2014 or 2015 as the "pinnacle" for Hurns and Robinson's "monster" stats those years. That game was garbage time. Just like most of 2015 played out.

Robinson pulled in a 90 yard TD pass later on in NOLA that same year and we were also already beat and had our teeth kicked in for the day. Just eating up more garbage plays against defenses not trying to beat you up anymore to get the game over with by allowing you to run the clock out.

(03-21-2018, 11:00 AM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you're smarter than the front office though.

Few keyboard GMs across the internet evolve past this narrow and egocentric mindset.

(03-21-2018, 10:57 AM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 08:11 AM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]Everything you just said either reeks of bias, or again, you don't know what you're talking about. Lee is easily more of a playmaker than hurns. He has more playmaking ability, more speed, more yac ability, he's quicker, jumps higher, etc.

Hurns is a passionate football player, clutch, great on third downs but he doesn't have close to Lee's athletic ability.

---

LMAO yes my post reeks of bias, you mean facts? I'm far from biased compared to others here.  Does Marquis Lee seriously have fans? Explain how Lee has more playmaking ability, there is no truth to it.  Lee has 8 career touchdowns, Hurns has 21.  Hurns has a 1000 yards season, Lee has zero.  Hurns has multiple touchdowns and catches that are 50+ yards, you'd have to dig deep into the internet to find a Marquis Lee catch 50 yards or longer.  I was being generous calling Lee mediocre, he's a bad receiver being force fed the ball on crossing routes.  He can't make plays on any other routes.  I don't even care that Allen Hurns was cut but the only thing that stopped him were injuries, Lee being a naturally better playmaker than him is laughable.

Lee doesn't have better yac ability either, Lee being faster means nothing and he isn't even all that faster.  He ran a 4.52, Hurns ran a 4.55.  There are zero plays of Lee running away from anybody.  You can find one of Hurns in 10 seconds.  



Lee would of ran out of bounds like he always does.

To be fair, Hurns had a great rookie year and made some really good plays, but those plays have not happened the past two years, and last year he looked slow and hesitant where as Lee has progressed over the past few years.  Is Lee a #1, no, but he is pretty good and I'm excited to see the continuity with Blake.

(03-21-2018, 10:48 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 10:15 AM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]When will people stop using this logic of: "we did it without them last year so we can easily do it without them again". That is not how the NFL works, other teams were injured and are getting better/adjusting. We also had to adjust our gameplan last year to suit the guys we had, which, btw, ended up costing us the AFCCG.

Our inability to run the football when we wanted to in the 2nd half cost us that AFCCG. Also a handful of poor calls and no calls all in favor of New England (which was widely discussed in the MSM where they called out the BLATANT favoritism) cost us that AFCCG. But, again. I guess you know more than Coughlin (Giants 2x) and Marrone (NOLA 1x as the OC) who both helped coach or assist in building Superbowl winning teams.

Maybe that is because we had no passing game?! With Robinson, now you can start talking about trying to exploit single coverages more and just open up the game with some passing? Maybe he is a target down the stretch? Your game just changes when you have a good receiver and you can counter the run defense a bit.We dont know how we would have performed, but we are not in a position to just let good players walk and talk about being as good or better without them. I hate that attitude and it is something (only a few) SB winning teams can say/do.

This is not even a knock against coughlin or marrone, its just about people presuming that we will repeat all of what happened last season with ease and have an attitude towards good players leaving us. Its ridiculous and it doesnt work that way. Our division is getting stronger, Teams will adjust to our gameplay etc. Coughlin and Marrone probably know just that, which is why they got a Top FA in Norwell to compensate for it, but I still maintain that you need to be able to pass the ball down the stretch and be able to come from behind through your passing game, which is why you need decent receivers, but thats another conversation to have. I just think people need to think before they act like Robinson i.e. was a bum that can easily be let go.

I hope Robinson and Hurns tear it up next year.

Concussions +Other injuries+Regression in Performance+Refusal To Re-Structure = Hurns Had To Go

It's really simple when you look at it that way, people. He turned in sub-par performances over the past two years and stayed injured too often to justify continuing to make so much money. He could have stayed if he'd altered his deal - and he had already been paid more than he was worth in guaranteed money (16 million.)

Simple business decision by the Jags.

(03-21-2018, 11:17 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 10:57 AM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]LMAO yes my post reeks of bias, you mean facts? I'm far from biased compared to others here.  Does Marquis Lee seriously have fans? Explain how Lee has more playmaking ability, there is no truth to it.  Lee has 8 career touchdowns, Hurns has 21.  Hurns has a 1000 yards season, Lee has zero.  Hurns has multiple touchdowns and catches that are 50+ yards, you'd have to dig deep into the internet to find a Marquis Lee catch 50 yards or longer.  I was being generous calling Lee mediocre, he's a bad receiver being force fed the ball on crossing routes.  He can't make plays on any other routes.  I don't even care that Allen Hurns was cut but the only thing that stopped him were injuries, Lee being a naturally better playmaker than him is laughable.

Lee doesn't have better yac ability either, Lee being faster means nothing and he isn't even all that faster.  He ran a 4.52, Hurns ran a 4.55.  There are zero plays of Lee running away from anybody.  You can find one of Hurns in 10 seconds.  



Lee would of ran out of bounds like he always does.

Down by 34 points and he makes a "play" against a defense that was clearly playing soft and letting up with 7:00 minutes left in the game. That was probably his rookie season or the year Luck wasn't playing. Or that actually looks like the game where Henne was pulled for Bortles.

This is why I laugh at you fools that keep circling back to 2014 or 2015 as the "pinnacle" for Hurns and Robinson's "monster" stats those years. That game was garbage time. Just like most of 2015 played out.

Robinson pulled in a 90 yard TD pass later on in NOLA that same year and we were also already beat and had our teeth kicked in for the day. Just eating up more garbage plays against defenses not trying to beat you up anymore to get the game over with by allowing you to run the clock out.

We've been over this before. 2015 was NOT mostly garbage time. Sure there were a few games that were like the Patriots game, but every team sees a few of those. For the most part, those blockbuster stats were put up playing catch-up, and often the Jaguars did a great job of catching up that season only to have the defense blow it.

I get why some people see letting Hurns go as a business decision, his production didn't meet the price tag.

Here's what i don't get.

1- The years you post Hurns and Robinson stats, you may want to include the Bortles factor. NONE of our receivers put up big numbers those years as they couldn't get the ball. Surely that needs to be factored in

2- People saying Hurns and Robinson only had 1 good year and teams found them out. What's to say that isn't the case with Cole and Westbrook? They had Hurns and Lee to take the main attention, that won't be the case next year. I like Cole and Westbrook but it's all eggs in their basket now.

After the whole punt debacle @ Jets last season, i felt Lee was the guy who hadn't really progressed to where he should have been. He's got paid now.

(03-21-2018, 12:05 PM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]I hope Robinson and Hurns tear **** up next year.

Why? That does not make sense. If they are up against the Jags I would hope for complete ineffectiveness. In any other game they play who cares since they are no longer Jags? You act like they are personal friends or something. No big deal, just odd IMO.

 Seems like a dig at the Jags FO because those two players turned down the contracts the Jags offered and chose to go elsewhere.

(03-21-2018, 12:26 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I get why some people see letting Hurns go as a business decision, his production didn't meet the price tag.

Here's what i don't get.

1- The years you post Hurns and Robinson stats, you may want to include the Bortles factor. NONE of our receivers put up big numbers those years as they couldn't get the ball. Surely that needs to be factored in

2- People saying Hurns and Robinson only had 1 good year and teams found them out. What's to say that isn't the case with Cole and Westbrook? They had Hurns and Lee to take the main attention, that won't be the case next year. I like Cole and Westbrook but it's all eggs in their basket now.

After the whole punt debacle @ Jets last season, i felt Lee was the guy who hadn't really progressed to where he should have been. He's got paid now.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bortles the QB in 2015 when Hurns and Robinson both put up big numbers? IMO there are only three NFL QBs that can make a receiver look significantly better than he does with an average QB. Robinson did not sign with one of them, and Hurns probably won't either.

2. Hurns and Robinson both showed promise in 2014, and then had huge years as second year players. I'm hoping Cole and Westbrook follow that trend (but don't fall off in year 3). It's reasonable to expect a WR to get better in his second year, especially someone coming from a small college like Cole.

(03-21-2018, 12:36 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 12:05 PM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]I hope Robinson and Hurns tear **** up next year.

Why? That does not make sense. If they are up against the Jags I would hope for complete ineffectiveness. In any other game they play who cares since they are no longer Jags? You act like they are personal friends or something. No big deal, just odd IMO.

 Seems like a dig at the Jags FO because those two players turned down the contracts the Jags offered and chose to go elsewhere.

Funny how many folks are acting like this never even happened.

(03-21-2018, 12:36 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 12:05 PM)SignMeUpAtQB Wrote: [ -> ]I hope Robinson and Hurns tear **** up next year.

Why? That does not make sense. If they are up against the Jags I would hope for complete ineffectiveness. In any other game they play who cares since they are no longer Jags? You act like they are personal friends or something. No big deal, just odd IMO.

 Seems like a dig at the Jags FO because those two players turned down the contracts the Jags offered and chose to go elsewhere.

I think it would be nice for them to prove some of the fans wrong that thought they were expendable and overrated. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that this has nothing to do with the FO.

(03-21-2018, 12:41 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 12:26 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I get why some people see letting Hurns go as a business decision, his production didn't meet the price tag.

Here's what i don't get.

1- The years you post Hurns and Robinson stats, you may want to include the Bortles factor. NONE of our receivers put up big numbers those years as they couldn't get the ball. Surely that needs to be factored in

2- People saying Hurns and Robinson only had 1 good year and teams found them out. What's to say that isn't the case with Cole and Westbrook? They had Hurns and Lee to take the main attention, that won't be the case next year. I like Cole and Westbrook but it's all eggs in their basket now.

After the whole punt debacle @ Jets last season, i felt Lee was the guy who hadn't really progressed to where he should have been. He's got paid now.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bortles the QB in 2015 when Hurns and Robinson both put up big numbers? IMO there are only three NFL QBs that can make a receiver look significantly better than he does with an average QB. Robinson did not sign with one of them, and Hurns probably won't either.

2. Hurns and Robinson both showed promise in 2014, and then had huge years as second year players. I'm hoping Cole and Westbrook follow that trend (but don't fall off in year 3). It's reasonable to expect a WR to get better in his second year, especially someone coming from a small college like Cole.

I get your point with QB's, but i also think quality WR's can improve a mediocre QB. Look at someone like Keenum with Minnesota last year, he had Thielen and Diggs making big plays and RAC yards. I think this is the big thing in the NFL now, gauging 'potential' against what you have now. The only problem with that is we tend to view potential as limitless and always positive.

We were one game from the SB, and by no means did i think we could just get there again next season with the same team, but we've lost Poz, Lewis, Hurns, Robinson and Colvin and hoping last years rookies can cover those losses. It's a hell of a tough job being an NFL GM, it's easy for me to second guess every decision.

Of all our WR's with 10+ receptions, Hurns' avg yds were the lowest. Dead last in 2017.

Cole 17.8
Westbrook 12.6
Lee 12.5
Hurns 12.4

Mickens had 12.8 on 6 catches.

Where would Moncrief stand? Second with 15.0

Out with the old, in with the new.

Startling collapse from Hurns over the last three years:
16.1 -> 13.6 -> 12.4

(03-21-2018, 07:05 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 06:35 AM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]The front office will regret not retaining Hurns or Robinson.

I doubt it.

My thoughts exactly.  This fanbase has a track record crying over mediocre players.

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(03-21-2018, 09:59 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 09:29 AM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ]Neither guy could run and get separation.

Their good season involved them making catches with DB's all over them and jump balls.

I don't buy that at all.

 but their ability to separate in 2015 should remain unchallenged.

This is where I agree.  They had a good 2015 but appear to be one year wonders.  Time will tell

(03-20-2018, 11:14 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-20-2018, 11:06 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Debatable but I think the potential for Moncrief to be better than Hurns is there.  Even if one were to concede that Hurns is better than Moncrief, that still puts him at 4th on the depth chart behind guys that were much more productive than him last season.  And the point remains that if your 4th receiver has a strong market, your top 3 must be pretty good.  At this point, you’re arguing from a very weak point.  You can believe Hurns would have been 1 or 2 this year but you’d have a very difficult time backing that up with anything substantive.

Let me preface by stating that I was high on Moncrief in 2014.

Furthermore, I understand there are different circumstances in each organization that can impact player productivity, in a good or bad way.

But if Moncrief could not succeed in Indy with Luck throwing him the ball, why would he succeed more than Hurns here?

As far as being "much less productive"...https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/jax/2017.htm

Not sure if he was "much less productive." 

Now could you argue his productivity was not worth $7 million/year?  Sure.

See that's the thing, he did succeed in indy with Luck throwing him the ball... Nobody there succeeded once Brissett took over but Creif was outstanding when Luck was starting.

(03-21-2018, 01:34 PM)sfljaguarsfan Wrote: [ -> ]See that's the thing, he did succeed in indy with Luck throwing him the ball... Nobody there succeeded once Brissett took over but Creif was outstanding when Luck was starting.

"outstanding"

(03-21-2018, 01:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-21-2018, 01:34 PM)sfljaguarsfan Wrote: [ -> ]See that's the thing, he did succeed in indy with Luck throwing him the ball... Nobody there succeeded once Brissett took over but Creif was outstanding when Luck was starting.

"outstanding"

Yes, for a number two rookie/young wr he was outstanding and did his job.

Let me make this easier for you. In 17 starts during the 15 and 16 season he had 1040 yds and 13 TDs playing as second on depth chart. Better now?