(12-10-2019, 10:21 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2019, 07:15 PM)JaguarKick Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see how Khan--who claims he loved Ramsey and wanted to keep him--can hang on to Coughlin, who created the issue that resulted in him leaving. That's just me.
Just stop. All we (think we) know about it is pure speculation and what Ramsey said happened and we all know how trustworthy he is.
Is it probable? Sure, but don't to speak to it like it's fact.
Ramsey handled this like an immature moron. But we do know for sure that Coughlin was waiting for him in the locker room. We do know for a fact that Coughlin overreached and undermined Marrone. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.
It looks like Marrone, Wash and probably Coughlin are gone at the end of the season. Now Khan gives a lot of control over decisions to Coughlin, do you think he looks for a GM to do the same again or does Khan have more of a say?
Now GM's usually have a HC or type of coach in mind. Do we wait for the GM to find his guy or do we bring in experienced coaches, give him a roster and see how we go?
Also, Patricia's job is looking shaky in Detroit, I'm sure plenty of teams may look at him as a DC, what do you guys think?
I'm going to keep reiterating this:
Coughlin MUST go...
(12-11-2019, 01:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It looks like Marrone, Wash and probably Coughlin are gone at the end of the season. Now Khan gives a lot of control over decisions to Coughlin, do you think he looks for a GM to do the same again or does Khan have more of a say?
Now GM's usually have a HC or type of coach in mind. Do we wait for the GM to find his guy or do we bring in experienced coaches, give him a roster and see how we go?
Also, Patricia's job is looking shaky in Detroit, I'm sure plenty of teams may look at him as a DC, what do you guys think?
If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
(12-11-2019, 06:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 01:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It looks like Marrone, Wash and probably Coughlin are gone at the end of the season. Now Khan gives a lot of control over decisions to Coughlin, do you think he looks for a GM to do the same again or does Khan have more of a say?
Now GM's usually have a HC or type of coach in mind. Do we wait for the GM to find his guy or do we bring in experienced coaches, give him a roster and see how we go?
Also, Patricia's job is looking shaky in Detroit, I'm sure plenty of teams may look at him as a DC, what do you guys think?
If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
THIS. This is a large part of the problem. Coughlin's role is so nebulous and he's looked at as almost a GOD like figure in the organization, no one can determine who to pin the blame on: Is it Tom for being out of touch, Dave for bad drafting, or Doug for bad coaching? A mix of all three? Get rid of EVERYONE. Start fresh. Start from the top down. GM has FINAL say in everything.
(12-11-2019, 08:30 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 06:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
THIS. This is a large part of the problem. Coughlin's role is so nebulous and he's looked at as almost a GOD like figure in the organization, no one can determine who to pin the blame on: Is it Tom for being out of touch, Dave for bad drafting, or Doug for bad coaching? A mix of all three? Get rid of EVERYONE. Start fresh. Start from the top down. GM has FINAL say in everything.
Yes, because right now, the only person we can say for sure is responsible for this disaster is Shad Khan, and he is not fireable.
The way things are right now, at the end of the season, Shad Khan will meet with everyone, and Marrone will blame Caldwell for not giving him enough talented players, Caldwell will blame Marrone for bad coaching and not developing the talent he was provided with, and Coughlin, God knows what he will say. The way things are apparently set up, it's a great big cluster [BLEEP], with no one, at least none of us, knowing who's really responsible for what.
We need to fire all 3, hire a GM and tell him he is in charge, and if he fails to turn things around, he will get the blame.
(12-10-2019, 06:38 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I think it’s a foregone conclusion at this point; the only person who has a chance of hanging on is Caldwell. Everyone else is going bye bye.
THis is where I am at, and it's a dilemma. Dave has done well in acquiring talented guys, even in the middle and late rounds, and even found success in UDFA. If we get rid of him, are we destined for a repeat of the Gene Years? Is the devil we know better than the devil we don't?
Personally, I'm ok with keeping him around. I don't think we go nearly as aggressively in FA, which seems to be our biggest hindrance. I still don't know if Dave or Tom was the loudest voice when calling to sign the guys we have on day one of FA, but those are the ones that usually bite us in the hind end.
If they wipe the slate fully clean, I understand that, too, but my risk-averse self is more weary of taking that direction.
(12-10-2019, 07:52 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]At this point there is no way that I would fire anyone of these clowns. If Khan fired Coughlin, Caldwell, or Marrone escape this embarrassment it's a free early vacation and some accountability for the remainder of this crapfest. The way I see it, it should be a clean sweep in the front office. I was saying this roster was thin in the spring. The team lacks talent should be on Caldwell and Coughlin. The team lacks discipline and looks unprepared every week should fall on Marrone.
The fact that nobody has been relieved of duty on the coaching staff is a very convincing statement that they have no desire to retain any of the other high-ranking coaches. There is no need for a dress rehearsal or interim. There will be no invitations for interviews once Doug is let go. Best of luck in future endeavors. Don't call us, we'll call y--, nevermind, just don't call us.
A few of the positional guys may stick around, but coaches, coordinators and consultants on down are getting the pink slip on black monday. That lack of suitable replacements may be the most damning criticism of Marrone's tenure.
Is it true that we 5 UFAs and 1 7th round selection on Defense last week? I heard that on the radio and to make matter worse, we ended up benching Quincy Williams and started 6 UFAs and 1 7th rounder by the time the 2nd half rolled around.
(12-11-2019, 08:30 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 06:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
THIS. This is a large part of the problem. Coughlin's role is so nebulous and he's looked at as almost a GOD like figure in the organization, no one can determine who to pin the blame on: Is it Tom for being out of touch, Dave for bad drafting, or Doug for bad coaching? A mix of all three? Get rid of EVERYONE. Start fresh. Start from the top down. GM has FINAL say in everything.
Shad has owned the team for 8 years now. I don't think we need an authoritarian running the organization in his stead. I understand he either does not want or is not able to be present for day-to-day operations, but the EVP position should not be circumventing the direction of the GM, who was hired based on their ability to scout, acquire and manage the players, coaches and other team personnel that fit their vision for a winning franchise. Step one of this entire process is finding an EVP that can act on behalf of Shad and his vision for this team without stepping on the toes of those responsible for the on-field product.
The EVP should not be a mouthpiece for the franchise. Any praise, criticism or evaluation by the EVP should be done behind closed doors with the people who are responsible for the operations of the team. Let them in turn share that commentary with their staff (players, scouts, accountants, what have you), so that the people in positions of authority are seen as authorities. Our biggest problem is that everyone knows Tom is steering every aspect of the ship. When anyone besides Tom speaks, everyone on the team is waiting to see whether Tom is going to undo the direction that was just given.
You cannot have that structure and expect to have a productive unit, whether that's the players on the field, the marketing department selling tickets, or the scouts trying to find players that fit the roster's identity.
(12-11-2019, 08:30 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 06:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
THIS. This is a large part of the problem. Coughlin's role is so nebulous and he's looked at as almost a GOD like figure in the organization, no one can determine who to pin the blame on: Is it Tom for being out of touch, Dave for bad drafting, or Doug for bad coaching? A mix of all three? Get rid of EVERYONE. Start fresh. Start from the top down. GM has FINAL say in everything.
I'm mystified as to why so many people are still unclear on this.
The EVP>GM>HC chain of command has been around for decades and it is not nebulous nor uncommon.
The Jaguars FO/coaching chain of command works like any other conventional NFL franchise. The ONLY nebulous part is in player acquisition wherein the GM will arrive at a decision through the conventional methods - and then that decision may be questioned, altered or vetoed by the EVP. Literally everything else works the same way.
That said - I suppose the reason folks are unclear is because of all the rampant speculation that Coughlin has been "meddling" outside of his role. The only actual incident of that is confirmed thus far is that he gave Ramsey an earful after the sideline spat with the HC. Every other "report" of TC meddling with HC duties and decisions is all just speculation. There is no confirmation of any other overstepping by TC.
Don't get me wrong, This is not a defense of TC, just a presentation of facts about this situation.
The problem we have right now isn't in the chain and how it functions, but in the decisions made at QB and linebacker.
(12-11-2019, 11:05 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 08:30 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]THIS. This is a large part of the problem. Coughlin's role is so nebulous and he's looked at as almost a GOD like figure in the organization, no one can determine who to pin the blame on: Is it Tom for being out of touch, Dave for bad drafting, or Doug for bad coaching? A mix of all three? Get rid of EVERYONE. Start fresh. Start from the top down. GM has FINAL say in everything.
I'm mystified as to why so many people are still unclear on this.
The EVP>GM>HC chain of command has been around for decades and it is not nebulous nor uncommon.
The Jaguars FO/coaching chain of command works like any other conventional NFL franchise. The ONLY nebulous part is in player acquisition wherein the GM will arrive at a decision through the conventional methods - and then that decision may be questioned, altered or vetoed by the EVP. Literally everything else works the same way.
That said - I suppose the reason folks are unclear is because of all the rampant speculation that Coughlin has been "meddling" outside of his role. The only actual incident of that confirmed thus far is that he gave Ramsey an earful after the sideline spat with the HC. Every other "report" of TC meddling with HC duties and decisions is all just speculation. There is no confirmation of any other overstepping by TC.
Don't get me wrong, This is not a defense of TC, just a presentation of facts about this situation.
The problem we have right now isn't in the chain and how it functions, but in the decisions made at QB and linebacker.
Yeah it was made pretty clear when Tom was brought on board he was the dude, he had the con.
EVP is Caldwella direct boss (I called him a babysitter at the time since he has final say over roster decisions)
And they are Dougs boss.
And Doug has control over his staff.
So Tom and Dave are at fault for the current state of the roster, the holes, lack of depth, bad QB choices.
Doug is at fault for holding on to Wash.
The only questions is, did Tom and/or Dave over reach and have a hand in Marrone bringing Foles back from injury so quickly. Even so, that's basically how a chain of command would work, even if it's an abuse of the power. Which just adds more fuel to the fire for the house cleaning thing imo.
Which hypothetical pairings would you guys like best?
Mike McCarthy/Eliot Wolf
Matt Rhule/Daniel Jeremiah
Josh McDaniels/Nick Caserio
Matt Eberflus/Ed Dodd
Eric Bieniemy or Dave Toub/Mike Borginzo
(12-11-2019, 11:41 AM)HolsterHusto Wrote: [ -> ]Which hypothetical pairings would you guys like best?
Mike McCarthy/Eliot Wolf
Matt Rhule/Daniel Jeremiah
Josh McDaniels/Nick Caserio
Matt Eberflus/Ed Dodd
Eric Bieniemy or Dave Toub/Mike Borginzo
Out of your selections Bieniemy/Borginzo
FYI: McDaniels was previously linked to Louis Riddick during the time when San Fran was rebuilding their office and staff.
Would love Louis Riddick in our front office personally. But lukewarm on the idea he'd bring McDaniels here.
Daniel Jeremiah has previously stated he loves what he does and isn't interested in NFL front office jobs, but I suppose that could change. It may have been he just wasn't interested in the NYJ job he was asked to interview for.
(12-11-2019, 06:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2019, 01:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It looks like Marrone, Wash and probably Coughlin are gone at the end of the season. Now Khan gives a lot of control over decisions to Coughlin, do you think he looks for a GM to do the same again or does Khan have more of a say?
Now GM's usually have a HC or type of coach in mind. Do we wait for the GM to find his guy or do we bring in experienced coaches, give him a roster and see how we go?
Also, Patricia's job is looking shaky in Detroit, I'm sure plenty of teams may look at him as a DC, what do you guys think?
If we want a clear chain of command, which I do, we should hire a GM first, let him hire and fire the HC, and let the HC hire and fire his assistants. If you don't have a clear chain of command, then if the team struggles, the GM blames the HC and the HC blames the GM. And no one knows who is responsible for the problems.
That's why, even though it might be interesting to think about having Patricia as our DC, I would want a clear chain of command, so therefore I would put the choice of DC entirely up to the HC.
I agree. You need that clear chain of command and the most successful teams have a owner, GM and HC who are all on the same page.
I like Khan but he does give a lot if power and control of decisions away. Khan has a lot of trust in Coughlin and seems to be happy going with a decision Coughlin has made. Thats not neccessarily bad but I want Khan to have a vision for this team that's more than just win a SB. How?
I dont know how ready Khan is to move on from Coughlin, I dont know if there is a shortlist or people Khan likes for GM or will Khan give Coughlin one more shot, let him pick the HC?
(12-11-2019, 11:41 AM)HolsterHusto Wrote: [ -> ]Which hypothetical pairings would you guys like best?
Mike McCarthy/Eliot Wolf
Matt Rhule/Daniel Jeremiah
Josh McDaniels/Nick Caserio
Matt Eberflus/Ed Dodd
Eric Bieniemy or Dave Toub/Mike Borginzo
I'd rank them:
1. Rhule/DJ
2. Bienemy/Borginzo
3. McCarthy/Wolf
4. JM/Caserio (just for Caserio)
5. Eberflus/Dodd
(12-11-2019, 01:20 AM)enigma Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to keep reiterating this:
Coughlin MUST go...
100%
Honestly if I had to choose only one person from coaching through FO to fire, it would be Coughlin.
I don't think Marrone is a great coach, but it's pretty obvious he's barely being allowed to do his job.
I still think everyone needs to go, from Coordinators to TC, but my #1 is by far TC.