Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:He's too small.

 

6-0 235 per Jaguars.com.

 

The size of the LBs has been one of my biggest beefs against the 3-4 over the years.  3-4 ILBs traditionally have needed to be big/strong enough to take on guards, stack and shed to get to the RB.  They traditionally need to be around 245-250 lbs to effectively fill that role, only after having a big, powerful DL in front of them to occupy blockers, especially a NT.

 

The only reason I have begun to kick around the idea of a 3-4 here is when the possibility of signing a true 3-4 NT arose when Poe made his visit, I started thinking about ways to get the most talented players on the field at the same time.  I came to the idea of a 3-4 alignment with a DL of Campbell, Poe and Jackson, with Fowler and Ngakoue at OLBs, and Jack and Telvin Smith at ILBs.  When the Patriots first started winning Super Bowls in the last decade, they used converted college DLs in WIllie McGinest (270), Tedy Bruschi ( 247) , and Mike Vrabel (261) to stock their LBs, in addition to Ted Johnson (253).  Looking at the recent Texans rosters shows starting LBs Clowney at 266, Brian Cushing at 243, McKinney at 246, and Mercilus (261), all bigger than Pullard (235) and Telvin Smith (220).  Only the Steelers of relatively recent vintage have used numerous starting LBs under 245 full time and managed to run anything close to an effective 3-4.  In fact I have often remarked the Steelrs represent the first speed based 3-4 defense to win a SB.  But generally speaking, 3-4 LBs tend to be bigger. 

 

While Jack and especially Smith are too small to fit the traditional 3-4 paradigm, this personnel package would serve as essentially a nickel package with an emphasis on stopping the pass.  So in other words, in down and distance situations where the opposing offense lines up in a conventional personnel grouping but in a likely passing situation.  This allows for pass rush (Campbell Jackson Fowler and Ngakoue) and underneath coverage (Jack and Smith).  While there would be some sacrifice of stoutness against the run, the idea of providing quality underneath coverage in a traditional 3-4 look appealed to me, especially within the context of being able to switch up within a drive. 

 

Were we talking about a full time switch, more stoutness against the run would be necessary, as would bigger LBs to hold up against the run.  Over the course of a season, Smith and Pullard would not hold up as 3-4 ILBs.  I'm not knocking Pullard at all.  He is actually a favorite of mine.

 

 

So then what's wrong with Poz as a 3-4 ILB? He certainly has the size and can hold up. You mentioned earlier that he didn't care for playing in a 3-4, but he's older now and has a professional mentality. He'll do whatever he's told to do, and he'll do it well. ...especially if they're only occasionally switching up to a 3-4 during games.

Quote:I look at a player, especially like Butler, as the epitome being a product of the "system" The "Patriot Way", so to speak.


Over the years, New England has continued to develop, plug and play guys who, with all due respect, before their time in New England, were perhaps just average players. I do believe that these types of players can have success elsewhere and especially on the defensive side of the ball; where those players can take that development with them to help further their careers.


Of Course there are the Wes Welkers of the world, whereas in his case, he was ok in Miami and great in N.E., then just slightly above average in Denver. He was a product of the system. And then you have the Chris Longs, and Randy Mosses, players who join N.E., already being pretty talented and just allowed to excel even more. Then you got the Revis', who have talent, go to N.E. but never really pan out.


Bottom Line, N.E. has developed Malcolm Butler to be a defensive back with a 1st or 2nd round draft prospect type skillset. He is one of the best in the league right now.

Revis was one of the best corners in the league during his stint with NE lol

Quote:Honestly, I'd be leery of going 3-4 right now, especially with our personnel. Let's remember what Tom Coughlin's goal was when he first joined the Jaguars: dethrone the Steelers and win the division. That's the key to getting to the playoffs.

 

Right now, Tennessee is built on a power run game. Houston is and will be a run-based offense (especially with their QB question marks). Indy might be the odd team out here, but I think they've thrown the ball out of necessity. Seeing a lot of mocks nowadays with them taking a RB in the 1st.

 

We cannot go "light" in this division if we hope to win it.

 

Quote:Bullseye, I like your lineup for the 3-4, I think we certainly have the personnel, especially if Poe signs on.


My one beef with your idea is playing Telvin Smith at ILB. I don't think he's near big enough to be taking on a lineman every play. I don't think Fowler is particularly athletic enough to play OLB either. Those 2 spots probably mean you likely won't see a consistent 3-4 lineup out there from week to week, but I would fully expect (and hope really) that we would have a 3-4 package ready for certain game situations. We have the personnel to confuse the offense a bit with different alignments now. It's exciting.

To be absolutely clear, this was not an absolute advocacy of switching to a full time 3-4.

 

First, even thinking about using the 3-4 was predicated upon signing Poe.  Without a potentially dominant NT, the 3-4 is doomed to failure.  We don't have a potentially dominant 3-4 without Poe.  Whatever advocacy I had for utilizing a 3 man line disappeared with the possibility of signing him.

 

Secondly, even assuming we signed Poe, I still maintain the 4-3 should be our base defense. I believe the 4-3 gives the defense more flexibility personnel wise than the 3-4. I believe by a large margin, our personnel is currently suited to a 4-3, not only due to the lack of a dominant NT, but also due to the lack of 3-4 LBs, both in terms of body and play style type, but sheer numbers.  In my mind, Telvin Smith does NOT fit the traditional mode of a 3-4 ILB, which is one reason I have been against the full time switch all these years.   Furthermore, all of the relevant FO and coaching personnel are 4-3 guys.  TC is a 4-3 guy.  Marrone ran the 4-3 in Buffalo.  Wash has run the 4-3 here.  Caldwell has been scouting, drafting, and stocking a 4-3 defense pre-dating his time here.  I would not want to impose a full time 3-4 scheme on the coaches or players under those circumstances..

 

My limited advocacy for the 3-4 was not a push for a full time switch.  Just for use in various situations where a hybrid scheme or formational or personnel variety might be advantageous.

I would legit trot out Malik--Poe-Abry-Calais on first downs and run downs and watch the dismantling.

Quote:I would legit trot out Malik--Poe-Abry-Calais on first downs and run downs and watch the dismantling.

That lineup would be featured against Tennessee, in my mind.  It is a physically imposing group.

 

But I would imagine teams would try to throw with that personnel.

Quote:That lineup would be featured against Tennessee, in my mind. It is a physically imposing group.


But I would imagine teams would try to throw with that personnel.

Try to throw on Ramsey and Bouye. Go ahead.

Quote:To be absolutely clear, this was not an absolute advocacy of switching to a full time 3-4.

 

First, even thinking about using the 3-4 was predicated upon signing Poe.  Without a potentially dominant NT, the 3-4 is doomed to failure.  We don't have a potentially dominant 3-4 without Poe.  Whatever advocacy I had for utilizing a 3 man line disappeared with the possibility of signing him.

 

Secondly, even assuming we signed Poe, I still maintain the 4-3 should be our base defense. I believe the 4-3 gives the defense more flexibility personnel wise than the 3-4. I believe by a large margin, our personnel is currently suited to a 4-3, not only due to the lack of a dominant NT, but also due to the lack of 3-4 LBs, both in terms of body and play style type, but sheer numbers.  In my mind, Telvin Smith does NOT fit the traditional mode of a 3-4 ILB, which is one reason I have been against the full time switch all these years.   Furthermore, all of the relevant FO and coaching personnel are 4-3 guys.  TC is a 4-3 guy.  Marrone ran the 4-3 in Buffalo.  Wash has run the 4-3 here.  Caldwell has been scouting, drafting, and stocking a 4-3 defense pre-dating his time here.  I would not want to impose a full time 3-4 scheme on the coaches or players under those circumstances..

 

My limited advocacy for the 3-4 was not a push for a full time switch.  Just for use in various situations where a hybrid scheme or formational or personnel variety might be advantageous.

 

So since we're talking about some hybrid/situational thing. If we did have Poe (which right now I'm going to guess it's not happening), any thoughts on Fowler at ILB? He gets pigeon hole as a 3-4 OLB, but I seem to recall seeing from his FL days his explosion through the line. 

 

I think Myles kind of has a similar trait, that he can be explosive if you tell him to accelerate in a straight line. So a situational 3-4 look...for our personnel would be Jack/Fowler inside, with Telvin outside. Yannick would be the other OLB who can rush.

 

It would be a 3-4, but the concepts would be slightly different. Whereas traditional 3-4 would rely on the ILB to stop the run and the OLBs to rush, we would change it up by having our rush come up the middle using stunts and blitzes (which Fowler and Myles can excel on), while also utilizing the speed of Myles/Telvin to keep inside contain.

 

Throw in some robber concepts with Gip or Church and I think this could be an interesting, if not unorthodox way of us giving a 3-4 look without totally miscasting Telvin.

Quote:http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...n-thursday

 

If they could get Butler for the 32 pick they got from the Pats would be a great deal for NO.  Butler one of the best corners in the game.  Would really help that NO D

 

Normally you & I will agree, not this time.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTAJAk25q_A

 

I posted this video in the Bortles thread to help my point there, now I can kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

Tell me again how good Butler is? Butler is a product of a system like everyone else is saying. Hurns, who people say isn't worth a 1st round pick. Yet, Malcom Butler who gets completely destroyed by Hurns on this play, and most likely 9/10 times would is worth that 1st round pick.

 

Just sayin...

Quote:Normally you & I will agree, not this time.

<a class="bbc_url" href='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTAJAk25q_A'>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTAJAk25q_A</a>


I posted this video in the Bortles thread to help my point there, now I can kill two birds with one stone so to speak.


Tell me again how good Butler is? Butler is a product of a system like everyone else is saying. Hurns, who people say isn't worth a 1st round pick. Yet, Malcom Butler who gets completely destroyed by Hurns on this play, and most likely 9/10 times would is worth that 1st round pick.


Just sayin...

using one play to scout a player is a very thorough analysis and should be taken seriously.

Zuttah just traded to SF for a swap of 6th round picks.



How come we can never get a Pro Bowler for a ham sandwich?

Looks like we are showing interest in a TE.


http://nfltraderumors.co/jaguars-hosted-...agg-visit/

Quote:Zuttah just traded to SF for a swap of 6th round picks.



How come we can never get a Pro Bowler for a ham sandwich?

he got traded for a 6th cause he sucks lol


He was gonna be cut till they got the 9ers to trade for him.

Didn't we just trade a 2018 7th for Pro Bowler Brandon Albert?

Quote:he got traded for a 6th cause he sucks lol


He was gonna be cut till they got the 9ers to trade for him.

He was first alternate for the Pro Bowl last year

Quote:Didn't we just trade a 7th for Pro Bowler Brandon Allen?

And traded JT for a return pick. Just because it was two different trades let's not pretend we didn't basically trade JT for Albert

Quote:Didn't we just trade a 2018 7th for Pro Bowler Brandon Allen?

Albert

Quote:Albert

 

 

Ugh.... so many Allens it gets confusing.

Poe has left Miami and is going back to Arizona to train and think. At least no more teams are getting thrown into the shuffle as of now. Sounds like the Colts, Jags, Falcons, and Dolphins are the list right?

Quote:And traded JT for a return pick. Just because it was two different trades let's not pretend we didn't basically trade JT for Albert

 

 

Stick with the facts.

Quote:Poe has left Miami and is going back to Arizona to train and think. At least no more teams are getting thrown into the shuffle as of now. Sounds like the Colts, Jags, Falcons, and Dolphins are the list right?

 

 

You never know about the list. When Martellus Bennett was in play, the only teams on the list were the Jaguars, Raiders and 49ers. Next thing you know, the Packers signed him
.