Quote:I hate the term taking point, but I get it. Everyone says Bush lied...
But I don't know how else to put it. Mislead? I mean, do you remember the run up to the war?
Absolutely I remember the run up to the war. He (President Bush) acted and did what he did based on the
intelligence available to him at the time. It's also a FACT that Iraq tried to hide weapons (even aircraft) by burying them in the sand. These weapons were found by chance. Is it not possible that many of the chemicals that were not found could have been moved to another place such as
Syria?
What about what was found?
Quote:How do we avoid war and a Nuclear Iran exactly without diplomacy?
Sanctions? And if Iran decides if we aren't going to compromise, they just race toward the bomb? Then what? I mean what do they have to lose racing toward the bomb if we're not going to come to a deal?
If you can just convince the dems in congress to vote this deal down then the GOP will surely have a better solution that surely won't involve war, that won't matter at all because the rest of the nations involved are not going to vote it down.
Quote:I've heard that fear mongering before... have you hear the term MAD?
So the entire Cold War was just fear mongering then? I'm sure the people who used to live behind the Iron Curtain don't share your opinion.
Quote:How do we avoid war and a Nuclear Iran exactly without diplomacy?
Sanctions? And if Iran decides if we aren't going to compromise, they just race toward the bomb? Then what? I mean what do they have to lose racing toward the bomb if we're not going to come to a deal?
This is not diplomacy, it's tactic capitulation. They can race to the bomb all they want, our job is to make it as difficult as possible for them to succeed.
Quote:You know, this whole "Bush lied" thing is a classic liberal talking point when it comes to the Iraq invasion. Has it ever been proven that President Bush lied?
This is
purely opinion and speculation on my part, but I don't believe that President Bush ever knowingly lied. I do believe that he was presented faulty intelligence by others, who had fabricated bits, pieces and chunks of it (I'm looking at you, Cheney), and he took that evidence at face value rather than questioning it. A sin of omission for sure, and one that I doubt was entirely accidental on Bush's part, but I do not believe that George W. Bush ever stood up in front of the American people and told us that Iraq had NBC weapons while knowing that they actually did not.
Quote:This is purely opinion and speculation on my part, but I don't believe that President Bush ever knowingly lied. I do believe that he was presented faulty intelligence by others, who had fabricated bits, pieces and chunks of it (I'm looking at you, Cheney), and he took that evidence at face value rather than questioning it. A sin of omission for sure, and one that I doubt was entirely accidental on Bush's part, but I do not believe that George W. Bush ever stood up in front of the American people and told us that Iraq had NBC weapons while knowing that they actually did not.
Was he presented false intelligence? I doubt it. Was intelligence "fabricated"? I doubt it. In either case it can be proven, and there is no evidence that it took place. Despite of what the media puts out, they are not really privy to such information.
Did the media get and put out false information? I would say probably yes.
Was the media fair to President Bush? Absolutely not.
Was the media fair to Vice President Cheney? Absolutely not.
Quote:So the entire Cold War was just fear mongering then? I'm sure the people who used to live behind the Iron Curtain don't share your opinion.
mutual assured deduction is not about the cold war, crazy...
It's concept to think about when you start freaking out...
Quote:Sanctions have worked so far. Business as usual has worked so far. Continued talks insisting on anytime/anywhere inspections would have been reasonable. How is giving Iran over $100B in frozen assets going to make it less likely that they build a bomb? War is not the only alternative to the total concession that is the Iran Nuclear Deal.
Whatever you gotta do to surrender man.
Quote:mutual assured deduction is not about the cold war, crazy...
It's concept to think about when you start freaking out...
When in conflict with an ideology that espouses suicide as commendable one cannot apply his own rational response as the model for his enemy's.
IOW, they don't care about dying so long as they kill you. Just like the Sons of Nippon 2 generations ago. We must learn from the past so we aren't forced to repeat it.
Or we can just, you know, not believe them when they say "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN AND THE LITTLE SATAN!!!!!!" while killing our troops and allies AND give them the means to create WMD to use against us.
I know what you prefer, I just can't figure out why.
Quote:When in conflict with an ideology that espouses suicide as commendable one cannot apply his own rational response as the model for his enemy's.
IOW, they don't care about dying so long as they kill you. Just like the Sons of Nippon 2 generations ago. We must learn from the past so we aren't forced to repeat it.
Or we can just, you know, not believe them when they say "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN AND THE LITTLE SATAN!!!!!!" while killing our troops and allies AND give them the means to create WMD to use against us.
I know what you prefer, I just can't figure out why.
One of the main things I learned in the history classes I took back in the day was that american propaganda always creates an irrational in-humane enemy that is hell bent on killng us and has no fear. See: Native Americans, Germans, Japanese, Communists, Radical Islam, and now Iran...
Usually, this propaganda does not filter into the actual policy makers... IE why MAD was something we didn't really hear about until after we began negotiating with the Soviets...
What was it that Breshnev (sp?) used to say about the US? Something about crushing us or something? I forget the exact quote, but rest assured, the Soviets used to talk a pretty tough game too. We somehow we avoided all that, but I do remember a little move called "The Day After" that kept us in fear even into the early 80s... But, please, feel free to continue to freak out.
I personally won't untill there's a reason...
Quote:One of the main things I learned in the history classes I took back in the day was that american propaganda always creates an irrational in-humane enemy that is hell bent on killng us and has no fear. See: Native Americans, Germans, Japanese, Communists, Radical Islam, and now Iran...
Usually, this propaganda does not filter into the actual policy makers... IE why MAD was something we didn't really hear about until after we began negotiating with the Soviets...
What was it that Breshnev (sp?) used to say about the US? Something about crushing us or something? I forget the exact quote, but rest assured, the Soviets used to talk a pretty tough game too. We somehow we avoided all that, but I do remember a little move called "The Day After" that kept us in fear even into the early 80s... But, please, feel free to continue to freak out.
I personally won't untill there's a reason...
And there we go, history is just propoganda, we needn't worry that what has happened for all of human history will continue. You are foolish to believe as you do, we've been fighting Iran for generations already. Of course you probably think thats our fault, so give them the bomb so we can get what we deserve. Of course you dont say that out loud, its just the effect of what you do believe.
The problem with the Left: they don't fanatically believe their own principles so they think no one else does either.
Quote:And there we go, history is just propoganda, we needn't worry that what has happened for all of human history will continue. You are foolish to believe as you do, we've been fighting Iran for generations already. Of course you probably think thats our fault, so give them the bomb so we can get what we deserve. Of course you dont say that out loud, its just the effect of what you do believe.
The problem with the Left: they don't fanatically believe their own principles so they think no one else does either.
LOL, it's funny that the right wing is the one that distrusts government, but when one exposes the actual falsehoods of government propaganda, then it's the historians that are wrong and the government that is to be trusted.
I like you, flsprtsgd, but you are confused. You hate the government, but you believe everything they tell you. How to you recognize anything as true or false when your whole world view is based on disbelief of government, but a belief in the war machine that is perpetuated by that government you mistrust so much? That's a hard square to circle, no?
The problem with the right is they are so fanatical that they have lost a basis in reality. If you hate big government, you should realize that there is nothing you can trust. Yet you trust them in the most critical areas--IE War mongering.
Again, go on and believe it if you wish. But don't think I am going to follow you into the abyss. I prefer peace, not more war.
Yes, that's part of the deal. And the specifics are what is the issue, right?
The deal drops the amount of centrifuges and cuts the level of enrichment that's allotted... that's the sticking point that I think it's freaking people on your side out, no?
At current, the strategy to fight ISIS is to allow Iran greater and greater influence over the what's left of the state of IRAQ
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/world/....html?_r=0
If that strategy comes to fruition over the next ten years (the time frame we were talking about) then that means that you will have a stronger Iran and an Iraq that will at least be under their direct influence, indebted to their military assistance if not annexed directly.
Also as above, the deal itself allows for the expansion of their capability to buy conventional weapons and long range delivery systems for their future nuclear arsenal. Not to mention, that with the imminent influx of 150 billion dollars Iran's top general is already meeting with Russian leaders about buying weapons with their new forund wealth against current international sanctions.
You got proof of the Russian weapons accusation?
It's certainly interesting to think about a few things.
President Obama has not exactly been "friendly" towards Israel during his presidency. Why is that? After all, Israel is our most important ally in the Middle East.
President Obama has made quite a few attempts at "diplomacy" by reaching out to Muslim countries with "mutual respect and mutual interests", particularly Iran.
President Obama claims that "Islam has always been a part of America’s story", yet there is really nothing to prove that. Quite frankly, the opposite can be proven. I don't want to turn this thread to religion, but I think this point should be addressed.
I believe that it's important to understand that this deal, from what we are seeing is bad not only for us, but for our closest ally in the region (Israel).