Quote:You just lost all credibility--all right to participate in basic human debate--when you painted all Arabs from the historic region of Palestine, a region which has been under Arab control for most of its existence, with the incredibly racist "fake beasts" brush. You actually might be the first and only person on my ignore list for that. Still deciding.
In the 1800's, Mark Twain visited what's the land of Israel. Read what Mark Twain said about his visit. That by itself will prove that there has never been a so called 'Palestinian' people that ruled the land of Israel.
In 1929, when Israel wasn't a country and there was no such thing as what Israel haters today call occupation, Arabs slaughtered a multitude of Jews in Hebron. This is known as the Hebron Massacre. This is one of countless examples of the terrorism that was committed by Arabs against Jews in the land of Israel. The ones that actually commit these atrocities and the ones that support it are beasts. One day when Israel has a true right wing government, not a phony right government like the current pathetic government in place, the enemies of Israel will be dealt with the way a sane government would deal with those that try to destroy its people and country.
Regardless of whether you put me on ignore or not, I plan on responding to your posts when I feel its necessary. I can't post much of what I want to say in this discussion because of the COC. But there's enough that I can say if necessary.
Quote: In the 1800's, Mark Twain visited what's the land of Israel. Read what Mark Twain said about his visit. That by itself will prove that there has never been a so called 'Palestinian' people that ruled the land of Israel.
In 1929, when Israel wasn't a country and there was no such thing as what Israel haters today call occupation, Arabs slaughtered a multitude of Jews in Hebron. This is known as the Hebron Massacre. This is one of countless examples of the terrorism that was committed by Arabs against Jews in the land of Israel. The ones that actually commit these atrocities and the ones that support it are beasts. One day when Israel has a true right wing government, not a phony right government like the current pathetic government in place, the enemies of Israel will be dealt with the way a sane government would deal with those that try to destroy its people and country.
Regardless of whether you put me on ignore or not, I plan on responding to your posts when I feel its necessary. I can't post much of what I want to say in this discussion because of the COC. But there's enough that I can say if necessary.
I edited my previous post. Please take a look at it and think about what's there, then think about how you insulting an entire race like that might be problematic in grown-up conversation. If you want to retract your "false beasts" crap, I'll consider continuing this discussion. If not, well, I know better than to waste time trying to argue facts and logic with someone who is willing to make overtly racist statements.
Quote:You just lost all credibility--all right to participate in basic human debate--when you painted all Arabs from the historic region of Palestine, a region which has been under Arab control for most of its existence, with the incredibly racist "fake beasts" brush. You actually might be the first and only person on my ignore list for that. Still deciding.
*Edit: My reasoning for labeling you as an overt racist is not that you're against the concept of a Palestinian state, because many people are, and they are for a variety of non-racially-motivated reasons. My problem, and the reason I'm calling you out as racist slime, is that you happily refer to millions of people, including children, as "beasts". Know who else thought that millions of people were the equivalent of animals or beasts? Nathaniel B. Forrest. George Wallace. Adolf Hitler. Osama bin Laden.
Go do yourself a favor and read up on the history of the region of Palestine. It may not have always been called "Palestine" in a governmental sense, but it was always a homeland for millions of people, most of whom happened to be Arabic. "False beasts." If you can really say that with a straight face, then the only false beast in the this thread is you pretending to be some kind of scholar on Middle Eastern affairs.
I'm not going to use the name calling against you like you are against me out of respect to the other Forum posters, including the Moderators. They deserve better.
But I will say this. When children are taught at a very young age to hate Israeli's and others that are different than them and when most eventually become terrorists or terrorist supporters, you better believe I'm going to call these individuals beasts. This doesn't apply to the ones that don't act that way. Actions speak volumes.
Quote:I edited my previous post. Please take a look at it and think about what's there, then think about how you insulting an entire race like that might be problematic in grown-up conversation. If you want to retract your "false beasts" crap, I'll consider continuing this discussion. If not, well, I know better than to waste time trying to argue facts and logic with someone who is willing to make overtly racist statements.
I said in my latest reply that those that aren't terrorists or terrorist supporters against Israel, I don't consider them beasts. In some cases, these people put their lives on the line for their courage against the evil that surrounds them.
Quote:But I will say this. When children are taught at a very young age to hate Israeli's and others that are different than them and when most eventually become terrorists or terrorist supporters, you better believe I'm going to call these individuals beasts. This doesn't apply to the ones that don't act that way. Actions speak volumes.
Have you ever studied the history of that region? Like, actually looked it up in unbiased history textbooks and on the surprisingly-neutral Wikipedia? Arabs have been given no shortage of legitimate, diplomatic reasons to hate the existence of Israel since the 1910's--before there even was a modern Israel. The history of that region after the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire is one of the west's greatest screw-ups. I don't think particularly highly of the Palestinians who are teaching their kids to hate Israelis specifically because they're Israeli, but I can hardly fault them for hating America after we have repeatedly stomped on the throats of those who had lived there for millennia in order to give a nation to those who'd largely left for centuries, then returned about ten years prior to deciding that they were a nation now.
I had a whole scenario written here for you to think about regarding the creation of Israel and why Arabs have every reason to be ticked off at its existence and continued protection by the US, but I'm pretty sure it crossed lines on the CoC. Just go look up what
actually happened in the historic region of Palestine between the fall of the Ottoman Empire and today, and even though I doubt you'll acknowledge it, you'll at least see why the creation of Israel is the most poorly-handled bit of diplomacy the US has ever embarked upon, and why the circumstances leading up to it and following it were just thoroughly screwed up by the entire western world.
Quote:Have you ever studied the history of that region? Like, actually looked it up in unbiased history textbooks and on the surprisingly-neutral Wikipedia? Arabs have been given no shortage of legitimate, diplomatic reasons to hate the existence of Israel since the 1910's--before there even was a modern Israel. The history of that region after the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire is one of the west's greatest screw-ups. I don't think particularly highly of the Palestinians who are teaching their kids to hate Israelis specifically because they're Israeli, but I can hardly fault them for hating America after we have repeatedly stomped on the throats of those who had lived there for millennia in order to give a nation to those who'd largely left for centuries, then returned about ten years prior to deciding that they were a nation now.
I had a whole scenario written here for you to think about regarding the creation of Israel and why Arabs have every reason to be ticked off at its existence and continued protection by the US, but I'm pretty sure it crossed lines on the CoC. Just go look up what actually happened in the historic region of Palestine between the fall of the Ottoman Empire and today, and even though I doubt you'll acknowledge it, you'll at least see why the creation of Israel is the most poorly-handled bit of diplomacy the US has ever embarked upon, and why the circumstances leading up to it and following it were just thoroughly screwed up by the entire western world.
If it was up to me, the United States wouldn't give Israel or Israel's ( and America's ) enemies any foreign aid. Israel doesn't need Foreign Aid from any nation. I believe that individual people around the world would benefit by supporting Israel but from the standpoint of nations, Israel's destiny is to dwelleth alone.
The so called aid that Israel receives comes at a heavy price, especially when an ultra hostile administration is in place like the Obama/ Clinton/ Kerry regime that began in 2009. If the U.S. would cut Foreign Aid of to that entire region, no one would be more thrilled than me. For what it's worth, I think AIPAC is horrific for Israel. They support a so called two state solution. How can they can themselves a Pro Israel lobby when they have such anti-Israel policy!
From a U.S. standpoint, I don't think the country should dictate its foreign policy based on appeasement. Beyond that, I don't think any America's enemies are going to be satisfied regardless of the U.S. position on Israel.
One point to consider. The U.S, recognizes every capital in the Middle East but Israel's capital, Jerusalem. Hence, it's evident that the U.S. doesn't favor Israel. While I don't want Israel to receive government aid, I do want its capital recognized. Ted Cruz said in the August debate in Cleveland that he would recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital on the first day if his Presidency, if elected. That's one of the major reasons why I support Ted Cruz's White House bid.
Quote:Go do yourself a favor and read up on the history of the region of Palestine. It may not have always been called "Palestine" in a governmental sense, but it was always a homeland for millions of people, most of whom happened to be Arabic.
And after WW2 the UN turned that into a homeland for the Jews who avoided slaughter. Was it fair to the Arabs who lived there? No. There were a lot of unfair border changes after WW2. Only one place chose to make it an excuse for killing busloads of children.
Israel did not kick out the Arabs who lived there, they were free to remain as Israeli citizens.
Note also that none of their Arab brethren offered the Palestinian Arabs the chance to immigrate.
Quote:I don't think America is truly exceptional. Can we get there? Absolutely. But we still have a ways to go. America does exceptional things, but it's not truly exceptional.
A sign of good leadership, honestly, is listening to the needs of those other than yourself. It's a will to compromise, and to negotiate. It's the ability to realize that you (as the old Earth song goes) can't always get what you want.
Many here dislike the deal because there are people in Iran who cry "DEATH TO AMERICA!" Would any deal really satisfy them? It sounds to me as if they don't want a deal at all. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but I suspect I'm not. Do you think that our European Allies want Iran to get the bomb? They don't. They believe this deal will stop them from getting the bomb. Our President thinks it will stop them from getting the bomb. Many Nuclear experts think it will stop them from getting the bomb. All of this of course hinges on them not breaking the deal -- but again, refusing to negotiate because they will break the deal means that there's no deal that would satisfy you and that you are putting negotiation off the table. Leadership is not forcing our allies to do what we want, and trying to force Iran to do the same.
"We want a better deal," many say.
Okay. So what's this better deal? And why does Iran (the most important country to agree to the deal) sign it? Why do they not say "Forget that, you're not going to undo our economic sanctions, so it's time we put all our focus on getting our nuclear bomb."
If the US decides to back out of the deal, do you think it hastens their development of the bomb, or slows it down? Keep in mind that only our sanctions would remain. And that even with the sanctions we've had recently that Iran isn't that far off from the bomb now.
Quote:America is exceptional, dating back to its very founding. The concept of a democratic republic was the sort of thing left for philosophers to speculate on up until the US actually did it. The fact that a nation that most of the world expected to collapse was able to hoodwink France out of the vast majority of its North American land for pennies, survived a Civil War, exploded into a superpower after surviving two world wars (leading the charge in one) that it wanted nothing to do with and ultimately stared down the Soviet Union to win the Cold War is pretty amazing, no matter how you cut it.
We're becoming less exceptional, though. The rest of the world is catching up to us. To be blunt about it, the Cold War is over. We're no longer the voice of the west. The EU is as important as we are these days. The Soviet Union might be gone, but Russia is still a major player in world politics. China...yeah. China has blown up as their economy has grown to the rest of the world.
Point being, the old dynamic of "America says go, the west goes" no longer exists. We no longer get to pound on the table until the other party relents. This deal is a perfect example of that. Instead of the "deal" that the right wing would have preferred--release the prisoners, give us all your nuclear material and research, destroy the reactors, allow an American "supervisory force" to stick around and make sure you're behaving, sanctions stay in place anyway but hey, we won't invade you today--we got something that every country involved signed off on. Does it keep Iran nuke-free forever? Probably not, but it means that there are now several European nations, not to mention Israel, that would turn Iran into a parking lot if it fired a nuke.
The US no longer gets to decide who can and can't have a nuclear bomb. Israel has eighty. Eight, zero. The rest of the Middle East has none combined. You think the fact that Israel, Iran's mortal enemy, is protected by the US and allowed to have more than enough nukes to leave a smoldering green hole in the ground where Iran used to be might be causing some resentment? You think the fact that Iran was heavily sanctioned by the west while Israel, which commits war crimes against Palestine, is coddled and supported might have something to do with it? The simple truth is that the US has gone out of its way historically to enhance hostility with Iran, whether we intended to or not, and the world government will no longer allow us to do so.
America has an exceptional history, and we're used to being "exceptional" meaning that we aren't just a world leader, we are the world leader. That's not the case anymore. We don't get to set the rules. As hard as this concept is for some people (not necessarily you, JIB) to grasp, we can be exceptional without being the only voice at the table. I think this Iran deal is an example of new American exceptionality. I don't know what President Obama wanted out of this deal. I somehow doubt that he went in with these terms. In fact, I suspect the original framework was very different, and much more harsh. Thing is, we don't get to just put take-it-or-leave-it deals down anymore. We worked with multiple nations, Iran included, to come up with a deal that was made in good faith and acceptable to everyone. That's not Neville Chamberlain. That's getting [BAD WORD REMOVED] done, and that is the sort of exceptionality America needs to pursue going forward. Telling everyone which rules they'll play by is no longer an option. Sitting down and getting everyone to agree on those rules and enforce them equally? That's the future we're already living in.
The fact that this half handed ideological masochism actually passes for intellectualism in this day and age is frankly shocking! There are those in this country who can look at a situation like this where we get no tangible meaningful benefit from an international accord and they can be solely content with idea that 'America isn't leading. We are not in control. The EU controls us. YES INTERNATIONAL MASTERS.'
It would be funny if this wasn't the view held by the current commander and chief. The sad thing is that i have had to sit here for the past dozen pages or so while those who are in favor of this accord lecture us about "true leadership involves listening, you can't just bang the table and get what you want. you have to give, you have to compromise." Then we find out that the lead Iranian negotiator was standing yelling at the international delegation (including women) like they were five year old children embarrassing our chief diplomat and that while some are holding onto a pipe dream of normalized relations, The Iranians are actively threatening the lives of international atomic inspectors so that we don't learn how impotent the inspection regime will be with all these side deals.
And Tj, if you want to lower yourself to misscharecterizing the conservative position on this deal then go right ahead. All that you are doing is demonstrating that your position is based on your emotional predisposition and biases and not the facts on the ground. Releasing our hostages and abandoning the footing that you want to wipe us and our allies off the planet is a pretty common sense position before we okay the international community to give you the means to arm yourself to that end. If those conditions were met then we could talk about enrichment, centrifuges and peaceful processes. As it stands now, the first move that they made was to go out and make a deal to by arms from Russia and publish books about how they want to deceive and kill us. If that's the kind of normalization that you were looking for then that speaks more to your misunderstanding or Iran's intentions than it does to my sides lack of international decorum.
What we have in this situation is a national entity that is sworn to undermine our international interests and ultimately our destruction. This deal does nothing to change that, it just gives them a stronger economy and a pathway to being a nuclear power. The idea that some are so giddy just to see our country embarrassed on the world stage pushed around like some pitiful Giant is both sickening and dangerous!
I once had a random online conversation with a young Israeli girl in which she referred to Palestinians as dogs. I asked her about that, she told me point blank it's how her family and friends think of them, and always have.
Don't tell me both sides aren't taught to hate from a very early age.
Quote:I once had a random online conversation with a young Israeli girl in which she referred to Palestinians as dogs. I asked her about that, she told me point blank it's how her family and friends think of them, and always have.
Don't tell me both sides aren't taught to hate from a very early age.
There's a couple of major differences.
Unlike Israel, the so called ' Palestinians' name soccer ( football ) stadiums, monuments, street signs, etc. after convicted terrorists that killed Israelis. In some cases, terrorists that killed Americans. Also, their hatred of Israelis is in their textbooks. Their hatred is institutionalized and the ones that don't have this view are in great danger if it becomes known.
I think another major difference is there are many Israelis that foolish believe there can be peace ( obviously, the person you chatted with Online doesn't fit this category ) with them and take risks to attempt to achieve this that tragically lead to the murders of countless Israelis.
Quote:And after WW2 the UN turned that into a homeland for the Jews who avoided slaughter. Was it fair to the Arabs who lived there? No. There were a lot of unfair border changes after WW2. Only one place chose to make it an excuse for killing busloads of children.
Israel did not kick out the Arabs who lived there, they were free to remain as Israeli citizens.
Note also that none of their Arab brethren offered the Palestinian Arabs the chance to immigrate.
Germany killed millions of Jews and, based upon its rearming after WWI, proved that it could not be trusted. It earned its border redivisions.
Palestine, on the other hand, had no notable involvement in WWII. They were just told one day that they were no longer a country, and a band of terrorists (as we would call them today if they had been Palestinian) suddenly owned their land.
Quote:The fact that this half handed ideological masochism actually passes for intellectualism in this day and age is frankly shocking! There are those in this country who can look at a situation like this where we get no tangible meaningful benefit from an international accord and they can be solely content with idea that 'America isn't leading. We are not in control. The EU controls us. YES INTERNATIONAL MASTERS.'
Then we find out that the lead Iranian negotiator was standing yelling at the international delegation (including women) like they were five year old children embarrassing our chief diplomat
And Tj, if you want to lower yourself to misscharecterizing the conservative position on this deal then go right ahead. All that you are doing is demonstrating that your position is based on your emotional predisposition and biases and not the facts on the ground.
What we have in this situation is a national entity that is sworn to undermine our international interests and ultimately our destruction. This deal does nothing to change that, it just gives them a stronger economy and a pathway to being a nuclear power. The idea that some are so giddy just to see our country embarrassed on the world stage pushed around like some pitiful Giant is both sickening and dangerous!
1. We don't have "international masters", but we are now part of an international community. Insisting unilaterally on the way things are going to be no longer flies.
2. The lead Iranian negotiator was shut down and almost kicked out
by Iran for his conduct.
3. My position has nothing to do with emotion. It has everything to do with the way the world works, and the world is no longer America-centric. Iran doesn't see our prisoners as hostages. If Iranian citizens were arrested in the United States and incarcerated (I'm sure it's happened), would we be inclined to release them as "hostages"? The right wing element of this nation would not be satisfied with any deal that didn't completely cripple Iran, and that wasn't going to happen. Iran can posture all they want, but the fact that this was an international agreement makes it that much more likely that the rest of the west will support us if it's violated, up to and including the use of military force depending on how severe the infractions are.
4. There are lots of nations that don't like the US, and several of them are already nuclear powers. Should we go to the bargaining table and insist that they disarm and dismantle their nuclear weapons stores as well? How far do you think we'd get? We no longer control who gets a bomb, period. This deal will, at the very least, slow Iran down and give us legal footing to go after them if it becomes apparent that they have a nuke.
Quote:There's a couple of major differences.
Unlike Israel, the so called ' Palestinians' name soccer ( football ) stadiums, monuments, street signs, etc. after convicted terrorists that killed Israelis. In some cases, terrorists that killed Americans. Also, their hatred of Israelis is in their textbooks. Their hatred is institutionalized and the ones that don't have this view are in great danger if it becomes known.
I think another major difference is there are many Israelis that foolish believe there can be peace ( obviously, the person you chatted with Online doesn't fit this category ) with them and take risks to attempt to achieve this that tragically lead to the murders of countless Israelis.
Israel has a whole freaking airport named after David Ben-Gurion.
Quote:I once had a random online conversation with a young Israeli girl in which she referred to Palestinians as dogs. I asked her about that, she told me point blank it's how her family and friends think of them, and always have.
Don't tell me both sides aren't taught to hate from a very early age.
The King David Hotel Bombings was considered terrorist attacks. Israelis perfected car bombs....if that's the correct way to say that. Setting off a bomb then waiting for rescuers before setting off a second bomb was a tactic used by future prime ministers and other leaders of Israel.
Absolutely both sides have skeletons in their closets and taught to hate. Even recent building on land claimed by the Palestinians is keeping the area unstable.
Sadly, if a child sees his family killed by a bomb...whether a car bomb or an Israeli fighter jet, it doesn't take much to cop an attitude.
Quote:Israel has a whole freaking airport named after David Ben-Gurion.
As they should, he's the father of their country.
Quote:As they should, he's the father of their country.
He was also the leader of what we would today consider to be a band of terrorists.
Quote:Germany killed millions of Jews and, based upon its rearming after WWI, proved that it could not be trusted. It earned its border redivisions.
Palestine, on the other hand, had no notable involvement in WWII. They were just told one day that they were no longer a country, and a band of terrorists (as we would call them today if they had been Palestinian) suddenly owned their land.
Israel has a whole freaking airport named after David Ben-Gurion.
Like I previously expressed, what you call ' Palestine' was never a country. Thankfully, there are people like Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee that are willing to tell the truth.
Having said that, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a major ally of Hitler's and supported Hilter's hideous agenda.
I'm no fan of David Ben-Gurion but clearly for different reasons. ( Gurion was a leftist. ). Gurion wanted the Arabs to live with the Jews. It was many Arab countries that declared war on Israel right after it gained its independence in 1948. With the purpose of trying to drive the Jews into the sea. They told the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave their homes, in order for us to finish the Jews off. Then you could move back. They have no one to blame but themselves for what occurred.
Quote:The King David Hotel Bombings was considered terrorist attacks. Israelis perfected car bombs....if that's the correct way to say that. Setting off a bomb then waiting for rescuers before setting off a second bomb was a tactic used by future prime ministers and other leaders of Israel.
Absolutely both sides have skeletons in their closets and taught to hate. Even recent building on land claimed by the Palestinians is keeping the area unstable.
Sadly, if a child sees his family killed by a bomb...whether a car bomb or an Israeli fighter jet, it doesn't take much to cop an attitude.
Britain didn't live up to the Balfour Declaration and other commitments they made to give the Jews a homeland. Even after the Holocaust, the British tried to prevent the state of Israel. Much like America dealt with British tyranny in the 18th Century, the Jews fought back to win their independence from Britain.
I'll say this though. As much as I detest the Arab terrorists and their supporters, I blame the present and most past Israeli governments for not telling the truth that ' Palestine' in the context its used is a myth. Part of this is because of appeasement. They want to try to satisfy the world. It's never going to work. The more you appease, the more you are expected to give up.
The so called ' Palestinians' have violated every agreement they have made with Israel, including their pledges to renounce terrorism against Israel. The Oslo Accords come to mind. I absolutely don't think this is a moral equivalence situation. One thing I'm confident about is Israel will eventually have a government that understands its enemies and doesn't live in a fantasy land. The concern on this end is that millions of Israelis might be killed before that happens. Not to mention, millions of Americas might be killed as well because of the failed leadership in the United States.
Something doesn't have to be a country to be a homeland for millions of people, and for those people to suddenly be told that their homeland (which was a country at that point, btw) is no longer theirs and has instead been handed to a band of terrorists was a knife to the gut. Gingrich and Huckabee may be technically correct in that Palestine was historically a region rather than a well-defined modern country, but they are speaking to a racist, pro-Israel, anti-Islam agenda. Ten minutes of research proves that beyond a doubt.
If David Ben-Gurion were alive today and using the same tactics he did in 1948, we would be calling him a terrorist, and the US would refuse to recognize his "nation". History is written by the victors, remember?
Quote:Something doesn't have to be a country to be a homeland for millions of people, and for those people to suddenly be told that their homeland (which was a country at that point, btw) is no longer theirs and has instead been handed to a band of terrorists was a knife to the gut. Gingrich and Huckabee may be technically correct in that Palestine was historically a region rather than a well-defined modern country, but they are speaking to a racist, pro-Israel, anti-Islam agenda. Ten minutes of research proves that beyond a doubt.
If David Ben-Gurion were alive today and using the same tactics he did in 1948, we would be calling him a terrorist, and the US would refuse to recognize his "nation". History is written by the victors, remember?
The following is an article that probably won't change your views but I think it's well worth sharing:
Readers Write: History supports Jews’ claim on Israel
http://www.theislandnow.com/opinions/rea...0bbd4.html
Quote: Here we go again.
1.) when people call out the leadership of Iran for their rhetoric you are the first to decry generalization, but when its conservatives you feel comfortable calling them racist bigot homophobes any time you want.
2.) gives us back our hostages and stop planning to kill us isn't my way or the highway. That's pretty common sense. It is the most vexing thing in the world that those on the left can take those two preconditions and craft this long emotional diatribe about not OFFENDING the Iranian regime or our western Allies. This demonstrates that the left would have been happy with a ham sandwich as long as it came in a box marked DIPLOMACY!
Once again, using an example of how generalization is poor is completely lost on you conservatives. Not sure why you get so defensive when I use it as an example of what not to do. I'll give you this, you and your ilk sure firmly embrace the right's persecution complex. You are at least as consistent with that.
Quote:It's all you need to know about those you're arguing with, those arguing in favor of a deal that endangers America and her allies.
Is the country exceptional or is it going down hill? You knuckleheads scream from the roof top about how whatever new liberal idea is destroying the country yet get red faced over someone saying America is not the bees knees anymore. Confusing at best.