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Lol I like how it's only republicans who don't like this deal. If it was a bad deal, why don't others think so? Goes to show how hard the Israeli lobby has the Republican Party by the balls. Turn and cough, fellas.

Do a bit more research, and you'll see that what you are being lied to about or are being dishonest about yourself is inaccurate.

The self inspection is only for past actions at that one site.


Immediate access by non Iranian inspectors is on for all future inspections once the deal is agreed upon.

Quote:Do a bit more research, and you'll see that what you are being lied to about or are being dishonest about yourself is inaccurate.

The self inspection is only for past actions at that one site.


Immediate access by non Iranian inspectors is on for all future inspections once the deal is agreed upon.

what do you not understand about how this LITERALLY HANDS IRAN A BOMB. WE ARE GIVING IT TO THEM. IF I PUT IT IN CAPS IT SHOWS HOW REAL MY TERROR IS RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Quote:Israel is our most important ally in the Middle East.

And that's the number one problem with US foreign policy in the Middle East.

Quote:what do you not understand about how this LITERALLY HANDS IRAN A BOMB. WE ARE GIVING IT TO THEM. IF I PUT IT IN CAPS IT SHOWS HOW REAL MY TERROR IS RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Lol your irrational anger is showing. You need more 'Obummer hates America' tho to really get your point across.

Quote:And that's the number one problem with US foreign policy in the Middle East.

 

please feel free to elaborate any time.

Quote:Do a bit more research, and you'll see that what you are being lied to about or are being dishonest about yourself is inaccurate.

The self inspection is only for past actions at that one site.


Immediate access by non Iranian inspectors is on for all future inspections once the deal is agreed upon.

 

please provide citations for "immediate access"

 

And when when your driving a car off the lot, the inspection BEFORE you give them the money is often the most important.

Quote:please feel free to elaborate any time.

Long story short (and staying within the confines of the CoC), Israel should not exist. Its formation was the result of almost four decades of bungling the Middle East by Britain and France, followed by a great regret by the United Nations (particularly the United States) about how World War II had played out and a desire to "make amends" for it. In order to do so, they almost completely ignored the wishes and protestations of those who were already there, and when a force that we would consider today to be terrorist unilaterally declared that they were the rightful government of a new nation, the US quickly drove a knife into the stomach of the Arab world (i.e., the rest of the Middle East at the time) by recognizing the claims of that terrorist group. It then spent the next 50+ years slowly twisting the knife by offering financial and military support to Israel and paving the way for it to hold 80-ish nuclear weapons for use against the rest of the Middle East's zero.

 

That's the very short version. As long as the US throws support at Israel, we will not be able to build any bridges with the majority of the Middle East. I believe firmly that support to Israel should be cut off, and they should be left to their own devices. They're more than capable of defending themselves with the massive military complex they've amassed, not least of all because they hold 80 of the ultimate trump card, and could turn all of Iran into a glow-in-the-dark parking lot if they so chose. I think that a deal with the rest of the Middle East that normalizes relations and limits military growth of those nations in exchange for the US drawing down (and eventually ending) support for Israel, along with recognition of the Palestinian state that emerged in very similar fashion to the modern Israel's birth, would go a long way towards stabilizing the Middle East and US relations with countries there. Israel, imo, is the single biggest hurdle to normalized relations with the Middle East, not ideology, and our continued support of it blocks any real chance of normalized relations and concerted efforts to dislodge ISIS.

Quote:Lol I like how it's only republicans who don't like this deal. If it was a bad deal, why don't others think so? Goes to show how hard the Israeli lobby has the Republican Party by the balls. Turn and cough, fellas.

 

You're right.  It's ONLY republicans that are against this deal.  Oops.

Quote:Lol I like how it's only republicans who don't like this deal. If it was a bad deal, why don't others think so? Goes to show how hard the Israeli lobby has the Republican Party by the balls. Turn and cough, fellas.

Yeah, those pesky republicans like Chuck Schumer and Bob Menendez are really gumming up the works with their conservative nonsense, aren't they?

 

As more details about this deal come to light, more of those evil republicans will no doubt follow suit.  Only the most partisan Obama drones, and the Muslim world that wants to eradicate the US and our allies from the face of the earth are celebrating this deal.  Interesting bedfellows. 

Quote:Yeah, those pesky republicans like Chuck Schumer and Bob Menendez are really gumming up the works with their conservative nonsense, aren't they?


As more details about this deal come to light, more of those evil republicans will no doubt follow suit. Only the most partisan Obama drones, and the Muslim world that wants to eradicate the US and our allies from the face of the earth are celebrating this deal. Interesting bedfellows.

Say what now about Saudi Arabia? Oh wait.

Quote:Yeah, those pesky republicans like Chuck Schumer and Bob Menendez are really gumming up the works with their conservative nonsense, aren't they?

 

As more details about this deal come to light, more of those evil republicans will no doubt follow suit.  Only the most partisan Obama drones, and the Muslim world that wants to eradicate the US and our allies from the face of the earth are celebrating this deal.  Interesting bedfellows. 

And non-proliferation experts, nuclear watchdogs, former military commanders, intelligence experts and the like. Every one of which is a muslim obama drone assuredly. 

No, they're just wrong.  

 

Just like the economists who said shovel ready jobs and keeping unemployment under 8%

 

If you like your plan...  you can keep your plan...  PERIOD.  If you like your doctor...  you can KEEP your doctor...  PERIOD.  

 

We will save each family $2500 on their premiums.

 

At this time, the best estimate we have is that this was a demonstration in response to a horrendous video....

"EXPERTS ARE WRONG!!!"

 

-New Republican Battle Cry

Quote:"EXPERTS ARE WRONG!!!"

 

-New Republican Battle Cry

That's been the battle cry of anyone who disagrees with experts for as long as I can remember.

Quote:That's been the battle cry of anyone who disagrees with experts for as long as I can remember.

touche

In 1994 the smartest financial minds in the entire world created a series of debt instruments based on the fundamental concept that since the supply of land was constant that the price of real estate could never go down.  13 years later the Capitalist system as we know it hung by a thread.  

 

Stephen Hawking just had a theory proven false.  

 

Expert opinions are great, they are not however infallible.  For the purpose of conversation its more helpful to express the opinion held by those experts and then examine their merits so that we can all come to a better understanding of the issues and then formulate opinions on our own.  So when someone says that there was a letter signed by this person or that i am happy to read the merits and consider them for myself, that's being open minded.  But if you expect me to rent out my mind to someone just for a series of letters behind their name then I'm sorry to disappoint you.  

 

If that's the common practice of anyone on this board then i am not throwing stones.  I would just like to let you know that i have several members of my family that have achieved high levels of accomplishment in real estate sale and mortgages and we are open for business baby!

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"Both sides agree the controversial arrangement only involves Parchin and its past military activity — not the long-term inspection regime agreed to for the remainder of the nuclear deal. The administration claims the future inspection regime is unprecedented in its intrusiveness.

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Still, the Parchin "side deal" is becoming a key talking point against the deal by critics."  http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/iran-nu...te-n412786

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">You can find similar quotes like this all over the internet.  The sad thing is that this is the real story, but it's buried in "talking points".  Yet this is the FACT.

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I found similar reporting at yahoo as well.  It's the truth.  All the rest of it is just stirring up intellectually dishonest tripe.

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">As I told FBT a couple pages ago...  IAEA inspectors have instant access to all nuclear sites.  The 24 hour wait period is when we want to investigate/audit a paper trail in a non-nuclear area...  The key (obviously) is to have access to how the nuclear sites are conducting themselves.

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">But for the last month, we've been told by liars that the 24 day wait was to inspect nuclear facilities.  That is an out right lie.  

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> 

<p style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-familyroximaNovaRegular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Check the Washington Post for that...  They busted that lie.  

Quote:In 1994 the smartest financial minds in the entire world created a series of debt instruments based on the fundamental concept that since the supply of land was constant that the price of real estate could never go down.  13 years later the Capitalist system as we know it hung by a thread.  

 

Stephen Hawking just had a theory proven false.  

 

Expert opinions are great, they are not however infallible.  For the purpose of conversation its more helpful to express the opinion held by those experts and then examine their merits so that we can all come to a better understanding of the issues and then formulate opinions on our own.  So when someone says that there was a letter signed by this person or that i am happy to read the merits and consider them for myself, that's being open minded.  But if you expect me to rent out my mind to someone just for a series of letters behind their name then I'm sorry to disappoint you.  

 

If that's the common practice of anyone on this board then i am not throwing stones.  I would just like to let you know that i have several members of my family that have achieved high levels of accomplishment in real estate sale and mortgages and we are open for business baby!

 

Aristotle, the worlds greatest mind thought we lived in a universe where the Earth was in the center.  What is your point?  

 

Don't bring that non-sense to an actual debate about facts.

 

While I respect your intelligence, a couple pages ago, you dismissed something I said because you felt it was a talking point...  What I just quoted above is rhetoric and talking points to the finest.  If you have nothing more to say, just admit it.  

 

You obviously disagree with the deal, but don't try and poo-poo actual arguements based on fact with rhetoric.  It's beneath you.

 

Seriously, I get it.  You disagree.  But be fair and honest about it.  If you want facts, bring them.

 

If you want to have a debate based on rhetoric, then don't be hypocritical about it.

 

By the way, I think this whole thing boils down to 2 options.

 

1.  An unjust war now, or 2. A war that has justification later...

 

I think, if you believe America are the good guys, you choose option 2.  

 

If you don't believe in true justice, then option 1 is your best bet.

 

It really comes down to that, in my mind.

I was responding specifically to the idea that just because there is an expert opinion (which there are on both sides) that to disagree is frivolous.  

 

I have stated my opposition to this deal based on its merits:

 

1.) the potential delay in the inspection process could be greater than our current estimate of Iran's break out time. 

 

2.) Iran Gets the money now and will comply later. 

 

3.) We outsource the inspections process to the UN and the IAEA.  they have already demonstrated that they have to make side deals to gain access to certain sites and the concessions made weren't part of the greater agreement with input from our diplomats.  

 

4.) Iran won't have to change their greater behavior on the world stage as the leading state sponsor of terror.  

 

5.) We didn't get our hostages back.  

 

I think we should have left the sanctions in place until you got a deal that was more favorable.  I think that when we withdrew from Iraq we sent the signal to the international community that we really weren't interested in continued military engagement in the region.  With no one to lead the charge on a potential military option then it makes sense that we wouldn't have gotten all that we wanted in the deal.  

 

We can agree to disagree about whether or not a war with Iran would be just or not.  Iran has already committed acts of War against us.  They have helped attack our allies, they were part of the insurgency in Iraq that killed american soldiers, they've bombed our embassy and attempted to assassinate a foreign dignitary on american soil.  Don't forget, we are having this conversation because they were pursuing weapons of mass destruction in defiance of the international community.  

 

Personally, i hate the idea of war.  I don't wake up in the morning dreaming of sending our best and brightest off to some foreign land to loose their limbs.  At the same time, when a threat presents itself and has demonstrated a resolve to harm our nation as pursuit in a universal commitment to global spread of our ideology then we have to be willing to defend ourselves if the person that you are negotiating with doesn't share your commitment to the diplomatic process.