Quote:You want something you cannot have and then complain that you cannot have it. How does that make sense?
In addition, just to be clear you are proposing that sanctions in place specifically over Iran's nuclear program be used as means to change an entire culture in a country? That would be akin to the nations way ahead of us on gay marriage applying sanctions to force the right to get with the times.
We're not the ones with our leaders out in front of the parade shouting "death to America" either. We have ever right and reason to kick those mullahs in the robes. Instead our leadership is taking the North Korea Strategy as a success and repeating it. Yay for us.
Quote:We're not the ones with our leaders out in front of the parade shouting "death to America" either. We have ever right and reason to kick those mullahs in the robes.
So were you saying that we should perpetuate violence against clergy, or are you using "mullah" to make a stereotypical reference to all Muslims in Iran?
Quote:I do want them to give up basically everything. Wouldn't it be great if they went back to the 1970s westernized Iran where they were a US ally and women weren't required to wear burqas? That doesn't change the facts.
Women are not required to wear burqas in Iran. They are required by law to wear a hijab (head covering) but it's not strictly and uniformly enforced
Quote:Women are not required to wear burqas in Iran. They are required by law to wear a hijab (head covering) but it's not strictly and uniformly enforced
^
A lot of people would benefit more from this discussion if they had an actual cultural knowledge of Iran and the Middle East. The reason why we're in so much trouble with all these other countries is because of a lack of cultural dialogue and understanding. This is not merely an intellectual theory, this is a fact.
Quote:A lot of people would benefit more from this discussion if they had an actual cultural knowledge of Iran and the Middle East. The reason why we're in so much trouble with all these other countries is because of a lack of cultural dialogue and understanding. This is not merely an intellectual theory, this is a fact.
If I could like this post ten more times, I'd gladly do so.
Quote:So were you saying that we should perpetuate violence against clergy, or are you using "mullah" to make a stereotypical reference to all Muslims in Iran?
The clergy.
Quote:^
A lot of people would benefit more from this discussion if they had an actual cultural knowledge of Iran and the Middle East. The reason why we're in so much trouble with all these other countries is because of a lack of cultural dialogue and understanding. This is not merely an intellectual theory, this is a fact.
The U.S. president who started the second Gulf war did not understand the difference between Shiites and Sunnis. We are still dealing with the effects of that ignorance to this day.
Quote:We're not the ones with our leaders out in front of the parade shouting "death to America" either. We have ever right and reason to kick those mullahs in the robes. Instead our leadership is taking the North Korea Strategy as a success and repeating it. Yay for us.
Quote:So were you saying that we should perpetuate violence against clergy, or are you using "mullah" to make a stereotypical reference to all Muslims in Iran?
Yes war is the answer.
Is Iran an honest broker? If you can't emphatically say that they are then this is moot.
As far as the deal itself, just think about it. What enforcement mechanism is there? the IAEA can request an inspection (That the supreme leader of Iran has vowed to oppose) and iran has just under a month to respond... It's not like you can move shutdown or alter illegal activity in a month or anything.
And what if they give the inspectors the middle finger? Snap Back sanctions? Economic sanctions take time to be crafted put into place and have a desired effect (which is why you shouldn't through them away at the apex of their efficacy but that's a little trite at this point!)
When you negotiate purely from the position that you want to avoid armed conflict at all costs then you're sunk. Diplomacy is strongest when your military willingness and capability are strongest, not when you are in the middle of a military contraction and our Marines are now asking foreign governments for rides around the world.
The saddest part about this whole thing is that if you step back and take a look at the entirety of the obama foreign policy projection, if everything is implimented in this deal and Iran is 100% compliant and somehow knocks ISIS back into the stone age then you are essentially going to be dealing with a terrorist superstate of IRAN, a further indebted Syria, and whatever parts of IRAQ (or the whole thing) that they choose to annex, that will have ready access to the tools and technology for the full proliferation of nuclear weapons.
If you like your terrorism... you can keep your terrorism!
Quote:Is Iran an honest broker? If you can't emphatically say that they are then this is moot.
As far as the deal itself, just think about it. What enforcement mechanism is there? the IAEA can request an inspection (That the supreme leader of Iran has vowed to oppose) and iran has just under a month to respond... It's not like you can move shutdown or alter illegal activity in a month or anything.
And what if they give the inspectors the middle finger? Snap Back sanctions? Economic sanctions take time to be crafted put into place and have a desired effect (which is why you shouldn't through them away at the apex of their efficacy but that's a little trite at this point!)
When you negotiate purely from the position that you want to avoid armed conflict at all costs then you're sunk. Diplomacy is strongest when your military willingness and capability are strongest, not when you are in the middle of a military contraction and our Marines are now asking foreign governments for rides around the world.
The saddest part about this whole thing is that if you step back and take a look at the entirety of the obama foreign policy projection, if everything is implimented in this deal and Iran is 100% compliant and somehow knocks ISIS back into the stone age then you are essentially going to be dealing with a terrorist superstate of IRAN, a further indebted Syria, and whatever parts of IRAQ (or the whole thing) that they choose to annex, that will have ready access to the tools and technology for the full proliferation of nuclear weapons.
If you like your terrorism... you can keep your terrorism!
Or we could just go bomb them now over throw their regime again.
For the sake of the rest of the middle east and the US I hope this deal is as good as Obama is selling it.
If not, Israel and the rest of the middle east are in grave danger.
Iran has killed more Americans than Al Qaeda and ISIS combined and Iran has an official position of wiping Israel off of the map.
I don't want my son to fight in another war so I hope that this deal is everything Obama says it is.
I forgot to add that I'm very dubious of this deal. I'm certain it is not good policy to negotiate with the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism, Iran.
SInce JJ82284 brought up ISIS, I will add that the next president WILL have to fight ISIS. These is no getting around that. The Obama administration has kicked that can down the road
over and over again.
Sorry to slightly derail the thread
Boudreaumw, I don't think anyone wants another war or bombing, at least I hope not.
Quote:For the sake of the rest of the middle east and the US I hope this deal is as good as Obama is selling it.
If not, Israel and the rest of the middle east are in grave danger.
Iran has killed more Americans than Al Qaeda and ISIS combined and Iran has an official position of wiping Israel off of the map.
I don't want my son to fight in another war so I hope that this deal is everything Obama says it is.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but let's just say that Israel and the rest of the middle east is in grave danger because of it... and they aren't the only ones.
Quote:I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but let's just say that Israel and the rest of the middle east is in grave danger because of it... and they aren't the only ones.
I think that's a very hyperbolic stance to take on the matter but I do understand your perspective. Israel is in danger but it's not because of this deal.
Quote:I forgot to add that I'm very dubious of this deal. I'm certain it is not good policy to negotiate with the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism, Iran.
SInce JJ82284 brought up ISIS, I will add that the next president WILL have to fight ISIS. These is no getting around that. The Obama administration has kicked that can down the road
over and over again.
Sorry to slightly derail the thread
Boudreaumw, I don't think anyone wants another war or bombing, at least I hope not.
I hope you are right.
In what manner is Obama kicking the can down the road? I am not sure what we can should do since it's our doing they are around in the first place.
Quote:Women are not required to wear burqas in Iran. They are required by law to wear a hijab (head covering) but it's not strictly and uniformly enforced
Yes, that's SO MUCH different.
Quote:I think that's a very hyperbolic stance to take on the matter but I do understand your perspective. Israel is in danger but it's not because of this deal.
What are the other Arab nations in the region going to do? For starters, they are going to demand that they have the ability to develop nuclear technology (worded another way, they are going to want their own nuclear weapons). The area is extremely unstable right now, and the idea that Islamic extremists could get their hands on nuclear weapons is a huge threat.
Also, right now we are no longer "feared" by our enemies. We are viewed as being "weak", and yes under this current administration we have become rather weak in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Quote:Yes, that's SO MUCH different.
Considering how often the law is disregarded by the general population, the difference is relevant. Iran is not what the Taliban hopes to make of Afghanistan. It's subtle, but it's important to understand when dealing with each situation.
Quote:An interesting article on why Israel and Saudi Arabia want to keep Iran isolated at all costs:
Fred Kaplan's article
And I chuckled yesterday at all the pundits condemning the deal without possibly knowing what was in it.
I started to try and read this Op-Ed, but had to stop when the writer expressed his liberal point of view (using the term "neocon"). That's pretty much a "red flag" that the opinion piece is one-sided and probably doesn't contain many facts.
Quote:The thing about sanctions though, is that they're more symbolic than anything. If we really wanted to hurt Iran economically, we would cut-off the Strait of Hormuz...although in all likelihood, blocking off the Strait of Hormuz would be so devastating and extreme, that Iran would practically interpret the action as an act of war.
I have to disagree with you there. We (The Navy) actually transit and patrol the area of the strait to keep Iran from cutting it off. If we shut it down, it cuts off shipping and commerce to some of our allies in the area. It doesn't cut off Iran's ability to ship cargo, oil or anything else.