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Quote:Agreed outside the us it's more authoritarian or anarchy scale

Anarchy you say?  :teehee:

Quote:Agreed outside the us it's more authoritarian or anarchy scale

It's not really even a "scale" as we would think of it. It's more of a series of Venn diagrams that can be used to place ideologies in a broader circle based upon similarities and differences with each other. Once you scale it up to the global level, it's tough to say that one ideology is any further "left" or "right" than another, but you can place ideologies within that circle as to how close they lie to the four outlying points (which I don't remember anymore, although I know that Orwellian totalitarianism and pure anarchy were the top and bottom points). Placing ideologies within that circle is a pain, because you have to compare them to each other as well as to the endpoints to figure out where they lie within that circle relative to the other ideologies presented. Doing it for ten ideologies took me the better part of a week. I don't even want to imagine how long it would take to do it for every major nation's political system.

 

So, yeah, suffice to say that placing Iran's politics on an Americanized left/right scale would be impossible without greatly oversimplifying things. Their political system is based on a completely different foundation than ours is.

I saw it described as a horse shoe before, that I think is the best way to describe the spectrum.


But with that said, it is interesting to see the similarities between conservatives in the middle east and those here.

Quote:But with that said, it is interesting to see the similarities between conservatives in the middle east and those here.

Edit: Never mind. I blew holes in my own statement as soon as I typed it.

Quote:As usual,  Ted Cruz is right on target with his comments.  

 

While the entire interview is well worth listening to,  the first 2:15 starting at the 18 second mark is about the horrific Iran Nuclear Agreement:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qGHX2u7UZo

 

Very good interview from Ted Cruz.  After reading his book and doing some research on him, he's starting to gain my favor.  I'm looking forward to the debates.

 

Regarding his comments about this deal with Iran, I agree with him 100%.

Republicans (and some Democrats) seem to be forgetting that this was an international deal.  It wasn't the United States vs Iran.  It was a whole group of countries negotiating.  And the other countries agreed to the deal, and thought it was a good deal.  They have stronger economic ties to Iran than we do, and will be more likely to lift sanctions even if we don't.  And how does it look to our European allies if we don't support a deal they think looks good?


Europe will likely do what they can to salvage the deal if we break out, and it'll be much more likely to lead to a nuclear Iran than if we're involved.  


Then you have the fact that if we just walked away from the table, and waited for Iran on this one -- Iran would likely pursue a nuclear bomb in the meantime, rather than just come crawling back to us with us being in a stronger position.  Which in turn leads us to the path to war with Iran.  And what does Europe do if we back out of a deal they think is good and that leads to Iran getting a nuclear weapon?  On the other hand, what does Europe do if we stick to our end of the deal, and Iran cheats?  And what happens in the event that Iran shocks the world and actually upholds their end of the deal?  


Some seem to want us to forsake our European Allies for Israel.  

Quote:Republicans (and some Democrats) seem to be forgetting that this was an international deal.  It wasn't the United States vs Iran.  It was a whole group of countries negotiating.  And the other countries agreed to the deal, and thought it was a good deal.  They have stronger economic ties to Iran than we do, and will be more likely to lift sanctions even if we don't.  And how does it look to our European allies if we don't support a deal they think looks good?


Europe will likely do what they can to salvage the deal if we break out, and it'll be much more likely to lead to a nuclear Iran than if we're involved.  


Then you have the fact that if we just walked away from the table, and waited for Iran on this one -- Iran would likely pursue a nuclear bomb in the meantime, rather than just come crawling back to us with us being in a stronger position.  Which in turn leads us to the path to war with Iran.  And what does Europe do if we back out of a deal they think is good and that leads to Iran getting a nuclear weapon?  On the other hand, what does Europe do if we stick to our end of the deal, and Iran cheats?  And what happens in the event that Iran shocks the world and actually upholds their end of the deal?  


Some seem to want us to forsake our European Allies for Israel.  

That seems way too reasonable friend. 

Quote:And what happens in the event that Iran shocks the world and actually upholds their end of the deal? 

 

Quote:Edit: Never mind. I blew holes in my own statement as soon as I typed it.

I know! It's fascinating, isn't it?

Quote:I know! It's fascinating, isn't it?

Yes. After writing all that about how Iran's politics and America's politics couldn't even be placed on a right/left spectrum with each other, I went ahead and subconsciously tried to do so, then read my own post and realized that it was hopelessly ruined as a result. Anyone who wants to argue that political science isn't a science should spend four years trying to make sense of it all lol

Quote:Except they are a right wing theocracy.  

 

They are a no-wing theocracy. It was stupid of Anchorman to attribute left/right to them.

Quote:Republicans (and some Democrats) seem to be forgetting that this was an international deal.  It wasn't the United States vs Iran.  It was a whole group of countries negotiating.  And the other countries agreed to the deal, and thought it was a good deal.  They have stronger economic ties to Iran than we do, and will be more likely to lift sanctions even if we don't.  And how does it look to our European allies if we don't support a deal they think looks good?


Europe will likely do what they can to salvage the deal if we break out, and it'll be much more likely to lead to a nuclear Iran than if we're involved.  


Then you have the fact that if we just walked away from the table, and waited for Iran on this one -- Iran would likely pursue a nuclear bomb in the meantime, rather than just come crawling back to us with us being in a stronger position.  Which in turn leads us to the path to war with Iran.  And what does Europe do if we back out of a deal they think is good and that leads to Iran getting a nuclear weapon?  On the other hand, what does Europe do if we stick to our end of the deal, and Iran cheats?  And what happens in the event that Iran shocks the world and actually upholds their end of the deal?  


Some seem to want us to forsake our European Allies for Israel.  

 

 

First off, the US has billions of dollars in Iranian assets sequestered. Even if the rest of the world capitulated without us, the US would still have a strong negotiating position.


 

Secondly, this agreement does nothing to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon, and, in fact, gives them plenty of additional cash to do so. 
This agreement is a total capitulation to Iran. Basically we received nothing. They agreed only to not take steps to build a bomb, but there is no verification that they will live up to that promise. How much is a promise from a religious extremist worth, especially when that religion encourages lying to non-believers?

Quote:Secondly, this agreement does nothing to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon, and, in fact, gives them plenty of additional cash to do so. 
This agreement is a total capitulation to Iran. Basically we received nothing. They agreed only to not take steps to build a bomb, but there is no verification that they will live up to that promise. How much is a promise from a religious extremist worth, especially when that religion encourages lying to non-believers?

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/14/8962035/ira...-500-words

 

"The deal does this: Iran will give up the bulk of its nuclear program, namely its enriched uranium (nuclear fuel) and its centrifuges (which turn fuel into weapons material). That will leave it with a program way too small to build a bomb.

 

"Iran will also submit to extremely invasive inspections. That's to make sure it isn't cheating, for example by sneaking nuclear material off to some secret facility and developing a bomb there. The idea is that Iran knows it can't get away with cheating, and will be punished if it does, so it won't try.

 

"In exchange, the world will remove a lot of the economic sanctions it's placed on Iran, and Iran gets to keep just enough of a nuclear program that it can save face.

 

"The provisions generally last at least 10 years, with some of them lasting 25 years, so this could be around for a long time.

 

"If the deal works, it will prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb, it will ease Iran's economic suffering, and it will make war less likely — huge improvements. Arms control experts tend to say this is about the best we could get.

 

"If the deal fails, then we will back where we are now, except that it will be much harder to reimpose those tough economic sanctions. That's a possibility, and deal critics have reason to worry. But this is almost certainly the world's best chance for averting both war and a nuclear Iran..."

 

 

Here's another article: 

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/16/8974507/ira...in/8104428

 

"The first person I called when negotiators in Vienna released the final text of the Iran nuclear deal was Aaron Stein, a nuclear nonproliferation expert at the Royal United Services Institute. Stein is a prolific writer and commenter on nuclear issues, and particularly on Iran's nuclear program. (He is also doctoral fellow at the Geneva Centre for Security Policy and a non-resident fellow at the Atlantic Council.) And he is a die-hard wonk — someone who cares first and foremost about understanding the issues, rather than about picking a side."

 

""it makes the possibility of Iran developing a nuclear weapon in the next 25 years extremely remote.""

Quote:On what grounds are you claiming that President Obama hates America?

I initially voted for him in 2008 and I do not recognize the man I voted for. I won't go so far as to say he 'hates' America, as that is a strong word, but I do believe he does not have America nor her people's best interests at heart. He said he would fundamentally change this country and he has, just not in ways I would have ever imagined. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention when he was campaigning as to his true motives. 

Quote:They are a no-wing theocracy. It was stupid of Anchorman to attribute left/right to them.

 

It was stupid in your world view.   But just because your world view doesn't allow you to understand it, does not mean it has not validity.

 

Think about it.  I know you are very reserved to admitting fault in your world view...  That is a very conservative trait.  So I do not fault you that inability.

 

But if you try, just try to see things outside your world view, you may be able to see that there are many similarities.

 

As I said before...  Gay marriage is one.  The Iranian nuclear deal is another.  Both those positions are similar to conservatives in Iran and in the USA.  

Quote:I initially voted for him in 2008 and I do not recognize the man I voted for. I won't go so far as to say he 'hates' America, as that is a strong word, but I do believe he does not have America nor her people's best interests at heart. He said he would fundamentally change this country and he has, just not in ways I would have ever imagined. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention when he was campaigning as to his true motives. 

 

I honestly doubt you voted for Obama in 2008...  How could you vote for him after the whole Rev. Wright thing?  If you voted for Obama after that, then you were an uniformed voter.  No offense, of course.

 

On top of that, Obama ran on socializing Healthcare, which was a huge topic in 2008.  He took single payer off the table and conceded to a much more conservative health care reform policy.  

 

You probably were not paying any attention to the campaign of 2008.  I appreciate that you admit it.

 

So the question is this:  What made you vote for Obama in the first place???

Quote:But if you try, just try to see things outside your world view, you may be able to see that there are many similarities.

 

As I said before...  Gay marriage is one.  The Iranian nuclear deal is another.  Both those positions are similar to conservatives in Iran and in the USA.  

 

And micromanaging the populace through an all-powerful central government of elites is a left wing thing. The theocracy can't be compared to either side of the US political spectrum.

Quote:http://www.vox.com/2015/7/14/8962035/ira...-500-words

 

"The deal does this: Iran will give up the bulk of its nuclear program, namely its enriched uranium (nuclear fuel) and its centrifuges (which turn fuel into weapons material). That will leave it with a program way too small to build a bomb.

 

"Iran will also submit to extremely invasive inspections. That's to make sure it isn't cheating, for example by sneaking nuclear material off to some secret facility and developing a bomb there. The idea is that Iran knows it can't get away with cheating, and will be punished if it does, so it won't try.

 

"In exchange, the world will remove a lot of the economic sanctions it's placed on Iran, and Iran gets to keep just enough of a nuclear program that it can save face.

 

 

You should read the actual text of the agreement rather than just quote some left wing website. Iran gets to keep the bulk of its nuclear program, including thousands of centrifuges at several sites. The inspections are far from "invasive," they need to be arranged up to a month in advance. If Iran were building a bomb, such delayed inspections would find nothing.

Conservatives will of course dismiss it for being a 'liberal source' (meanwhile continuing to say that Liberals shouldn't call into question the reliability of the sources they post...) but for others that are interested:


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/1...V920150716

Quote:You should read the actual text of the agreement rather than just quote some left wing website. Iran gets to keep the bulk of its nuclear program, including thousands of centrifuges at several sites. The inspections are far from "invasive," they need to be arranged up to a month in advance. If Iran were building a bomb, such delayed inspections would find nothing.

 

I think people are underestimating the infrastructure required to generate the material for a bomb and that it's not like moving a meth lab.