Quote:You didn't read the details of it but know how to summarize it?
I'm sure it's a little more complicated than just saying "pretty please don't build bombs mister". I will wait for the full story before making a judgement on it rather than praising or denouncing it based on the parties involved.
Diplomacy was working we had them at the table because of the sanctions. Instead of holding their feet to the fire and forcing them to either continue suffering under sanctions or end their role as state sponsors of terror we just gave up.
It took decades to get Europe, Russia and other Arab nations to work with us on those sanction we'll NEVER get that back. We'd have been better off sustaining the sanctions until the people of Iran demanded regime change.
Trusting Iran to end their quest for nuclear weapons is non-sense, they have no need for nuclear power it's one of the richest oil nations in the world.
anything short of them renouncing all terror, releasing all foreign political prisoners, deactivating and destroying all of the nuclear fuselages and adopting America beautiful as their national anthem is a loss. We literally have no reason to release them from the sanctions there is Zero benefit to us or our allies.
Diplomacy works now we've backed ourselves into a corner, just ask yourself what happens in 18 months when we find out their not behaving? You think we can easily get those sanctions back?
Quote:Diplomacy was working we had them at the table because of the sanctions. Instead of holding their feet to the fire and forcing them to either continue suffering under sanctions or end their role as state sponsors of terror we just gave up.
It took decades to get Europe, Russia and other Arab nations to work with us on those sanction we'll NEVER get that back. We'd have been better off sustaining the sanctions until the people of Iran demanded regime change.
Trusting Iran to end their quest for nuclear weapons is non-sense, they have no need for nuclear power it's one of the richest oil nations in the world.
anything short of them renouncing all terror, releasing all foreign political prisoners, deactivating and destroying all of the nuclear fuselages and adopting America beautiful as their national anthem is a loss. We literally have no reason to release them from the sanctions there is Zero benefit to us or our allies.
Diplomacy works now we've backed ourselves into a corner, just ask yourself what happens in 18 months when we find out their not behaving? You think we can easily get those sanctions back?
No, and I don't disagree but I also don't think sanctions are diplomacy but rather a method to get to diplomacy. When this first came about there was supposed to be measures in place to snap the sanctions back into place on top of the only sanctions being lifted.
My reservations in making a judgment on it are based on the fact that we do not know everything yet but the typical crowds are praising as salvation it while the other typical crowd are denouncing it as the end of the world. Both seem equally foolish.
Quote:No, and I don't disagree but I also don't think sanctions are diplomacy but rather a method to get to diplomacy. When this first came about there was supposed to be measures in place to snap the sanctions back into place on top of the only sanctions being lifted.
My reservations in making a judgment on it are based on the fact that we do not know everything yet but the typical crowds are praising as salvation it while the other typical crowd are denouncing it as the end of the world. Both seem equally foolish.
We know they're not releasing our prisoners, renouncing terror or ties with it, only scaling back not ending their nuclear program and they are not adopting America Beautiful as their national anthem so ending the sanctions sucks for us.
Quote:We know they're not releasing our prisoners, renouncing terror or ties with it, only scaling back not ending their nuclear program and they are not adopting America Beautiful as their national anthem so ending the sanctions sucks for us.
Ron would be so disappointed in you.
Quote:Ron would be so disappointed in you.
Lol I'm not calling for war I just wanted a much harder stand before easing up on them. We had all the leverage for once.
Quote:Lol I'm not calling for war I just wanted a much harder stand before easing up on them. We had all the leverage for once.
Understandable and I agree. What I don't agree with is absolutism and a completely unrealistic expectation of total capitulation. That would not happen from any country in the world (outside of total war and a defeat in it ala Germany, if even that these days) let alone Iran. I know that's what the right and even some I know on the left wanted but it's simply not realistic.
My main interest is in how the remaining nuclear can be used and if there are mechanisms in place to return sanctions should the renege or hinder inspections or the like as was mentioned when this first became a story. It's not, IMO reasonable to expect for any country to give up all access to nuclear when it's so important for the energy and medical fields.
Quote:Understandable and I agree. What I don't agree with is absolutism and a completely unrealistic expectation of total capitulation. That would not happen from any country in the world (outside of total war and a defeat in it ala Germany, if even that these days) let alone Iran. I know that's what the right and even some I know on the left wanted but it's simply not realistic.
My main interest is in how the remaining nuclear can be used and if there are mechanisms in place to return sanctions should the renege or hinder inspections or the like as was mentioned when this first became a story. It's not, IMO reasonable to expect for any country to give up all access to nuclear when it's so important for the energy and medical fields.
Hard diplomacy often avoids quick wars. When we bend on the political, economical and multinational pressure we leave only the military as an option to keep them in check. At all cost I want to avoid another war in the middle east. This step to me sets us up to get dragged back into the middle east in a very short period of time.
Quote:Hard diplomacy often avoids quick wars. When we bend on the political, economical and multinational pressure we leave only the military as an option to keep them in check. At all cost I want to avoid another war in the middle east. This step to me sets us up to get dragged back into the middle east in a very short period of time.
That remains to be seen. This is the point of sanctions though to force negotiations. Negotiations many countries have worked on and agreed on. I get it. You and others want then to have zero nuclear program at all and well I don't think that realistic or even reasonable when you consider its importance in other fields. especially considering that yesterday there was total free reign in their program. Presumable this reduces its effcacy and adds oversight. If this does what the proponents say it will do them its a good thing. I think it's worth waiting for reasonable evaluation of the entire deal before we fear the worst. Regardless I know one thing for sure. Regardless of whether it's a good, bad or meh deal Republicans have to hate it.
I think people overestimate the power America has.
There are basically four options: (none of them are particularly good)
#1. Go to War with Iran
#2. Keep the Economic Sanctions/Increase them
#3. Come to a Deal
#4. Let Iran have the bomb.
#1 - Israel likely thinks this option is inevitable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But this option is also likely to lead Iran to race to build a nuclear weapon. Which they don't seem to be too far from doing. It comes to war, and I think they'll pull out all stops to get a Nuke. This is also likely to cost many lives.
#2. The problem with this is simple: Europe has more economic ties to Israel than we do. The sanctions were meant to be a way to make a deal. Then you have China and Russia... there's much more involved than the United States and Israel. And I think it's something people forget sometimes. Not to mention that our relationship with Iran would worsen, and would likely drive them to create the bomb anyway.
#3. Get the deal done. The hard part becomes enforcing it. Does Iran decide they're Tom Brady and figure they can deflate figures and cheat on the deal? Putting sanctions back on Iran won't be easy. And the sanctions would have to be removed at the appropriate time. Remove them too fast, and Iran has no incentive to follow the deal. Remove them too slow, and Iran will think that they might as well cheat.
#4. Israel would probably decide to go to war, thus leading to #1.
I'm pretty sure that the bench marks that needs to be hit by Iran to get the sanctions lifted are pretty good. Also, sanctions aren't to begin to be lifted for like at least 5 years, from the reports I saw yesterday morning.
I could be wrong, but 5 years to begin lifting sanctions is not giving away the store, so to speak.
Also, I thought Obama mentioning how we began negotiating with the Soviets back in the 80's was a good point. We are not in complete harmony with Russia now, but normalizing relations is a lot better than having an antagonistic relationship.
Quote:Diplomacy was working we had them at the table because of the sanctions. Instead of holding their feet to the fire and forcing them to either continue suffering under sanctions or end their role as state sponsors of terror we just gave up.
It took decades to get Europe, Russia and other Arab nations to work with us on those sanction we'll NEVER get that back. We'd have been better off sustaining the sanctions until the people of Iran demanded regime change.
Trusting Iran to end their quest for nuclear weapons is non-sense, they have no need for nuclear power it's one of the richest oil nations in the world.
anything short of them renouncing all terror, releasing all foreign political prisoners, deactivating and destroying all of the nuclear fuselages and adopting America beautiful as their national anthem is a loss. We literally have no reason to release them from the sanctions there is Zero benefit to us or our allies.
Diplomacy works now we've backed ourselves into a corner, just ask yourself what happens in 18 months when we find out their not behaving? You think we can easily get those sanctions back?
The trouble is, maintaining the sanctions isn't just up to us. It's also up to all the other players, and if we failed to make a deal, I know for sure Russia and China would have walked away and the sanctions would have collapsed.
Besides, Russia and China got on board with the sanctions because of the possibility of Iran developing a nuclear weapon. Moving the goalposts to where Iran has to also renounce its foreign policy and become a friend instead of an enemy, and especially regime change, would not be workable at all. That's not what Russia and China and the rest of the UN signed up for. You can't persuade people to support the sanctions and the negotiations and then move the goal posts!
Quote:I'm pretty sure that the bench marks that needs to be hit by Iran to get the sanctions lifted are pretty good. Also, sanctions aren't to begin to be lifted for like at least 5 years, from the reports I saw yesterday morning.
I could be wrong, but 5 years to begin lifting sanctions is not giving away the store, so to speak.
Also, I thought Obama mentioning how we began negotiating with the Soviets back in the 80's was a good point. We are not in complete harmony with Russia now, but normalizing relations is a lot better than having an antagonistic relationship.
John Kerry said in December the IAEA is supposed to have everything answered by Iran and then the deal is finalized. I haven't read anything about the sanctions being delayed 5 years that doesn't add up since the guidelines start phasing out in 10 years?
Quote:The trouble is, maintaining the sanctions isn't just up to us. It's also up to all the other players, and if we failed to make a deal, I know for sure Russia and China would have walked away and the sanctions would have collapsed.
Besides, Russia and China got on board with the sanctions because of the possibility of Iran developing a nuclear weapon. Moving the goalposts to where Iran has to also renounce its foreign policy and become a friend instead of an enemy, and especially regime change, would not be workable at all. That's not what Russia and China and the rest of the UN signed up for. You can't persuade people to support the sanctions and the negotiations and then move the goal posts!
China and Russia are at the table because Iran is a rogue nation like North Korea. Russia is only a third of the super powers they're not going to end sanctions while China and the Unite States keep them. There's no benefit for China to ease up sanctions they don't want a nuclear Iran, they're positioning to leverage against Russia as much as us.
Quote:China and Russia are at the table because Iran is a rogue nation like North Korea. Russia is only a third of the super powers they're not going to end sanctions while China and the Unite States keep them. There's no benefit for China to ease up sanctions they don't want a nuclear Iran, they're positioning to leverage against Russia as much as us.
I don't think that is accurate... Russia and China want access to Iran's oil. Remember the big hullabaloo when Russia and China were beginning to open trade negotiations with Iran?
These sanctions that Russia and China agreed to follow were something they wanted to eventually have lifted. This negotiation benefits those two countries. The rogue nation status is a term we use, I'm not sure those other two countries see it the same way.
Also, you got to consider that sanctions mostly hurt the citizens more than the actual government.
Lastly, I think you are right regarding your reply to my time scale fit lifting sanctions. There are certain things that won't be lifted but others that will.
The five year mark is for the sale of conventional arms.
An interesting article on why Israel and Saudi Arabia want to keep Iran isolated at all costs:
Fred Kaplan's article
And I chuckled yesterday at all the pundits condemning the deal without possibly knowing what was in it.
Quote:Diplomacy was working we had them at the table because of the sanctions. Instead of holding their feet to the fire and forcing them to either continue suffering under sanctions or end their role as state sponsors of terror we just gave up.
The thing about sanctions though, is that they're more symbolic than anything. If we really wanted to hurt Iran economically, we would cut-off the Strait of Hormuz...although in all likelihood, blocking off the Strait of Hormuz would be so devastating and extreme, that Iran would practically interpret the action as an act of war.
Quote:I double your chuckle at taking a commentator's statements as fact.
From your article:
Because the agreement only puts off that prospect on paper.
In April, Obama's national security advisor said one of the requirements for an agreement is anytime/anywhere inspections. Now that the truth is out that the inspections must be arranged and negotiated beforehand, Obama's national security advisor claims "We never sought anytime/anywhere inspections."
In the south, we call that lying.
When inspections have to be negotiated, there is plenty of time to move bomb-making equipment and parts to a different place. Iran will continue to build a bomb.
The sanctions have been lifted and Iran has agreed to ... basically nothing in return. And the US has billions in Iranian money locked up; that will be freed up too as part of the deal. So even if Russia and China weren't on board with the sanctions, the US still had a big bargaining chip that was just given away.
The sanctions have not been lifted and will not be lifted immediately but over time if milestones are met. Iran has given up and into more than basically nothing. You say basically nothing because you want them to give up basically everything.
Outside of the south we call this lying and being disingenuous.
Quote:I do want them to give up basically everything. Wouldn't it be great if they went back to the 1970s westernized Iran where they were a US ally and women weren't required to wear burqas? That doesn't change the facts.
Do you have a link to the text where it says the economic sanctions will be lifted over time?
Or are you just referring to the sanctions on military equipment? That's hardly significant. With enough money they can build their own military equipment, or buy it through a proxy country that didn't sign onto the deal.
Q: What do they call lying in DC?
A: Statesmanship.
You want something you cannot have and then complain that you cannot have it. How does that make sense?
In addition, just to be clear you are proposing that sanctions in place specifically over Iran's nuclear program be used as means to change an entire culture in a country? That would be akin to the nations way ahead of us on gay marriage applying sanctions to force the right to get with the times.