03-07-2020, 11:57 AM
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03-07-2020, 11:57 AM
03-07-2020, 03:34 PM
(03-07-2020, 11:17 AM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ](03-06-2020, 06:59 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with much of what you say, but you have to admit, it all started with white people. For example, the so-called "one drop" rule, where if you had one drop of black blood in you, you were black. Half black and half white was considered black, as it is today, but that rule started with white people.FTFY
Liberals are just doing what Democrats have done since their parties inception conservatives did many years ago, and it's what people do all the time today, and that is, making up "rules" and "categories of people" when they think it's to their advantage to do so.
It's reprehensible, but don't act like liberals invented this stuff. A lot of it was the liberal reaction to racism and discrimination, when they invented affirmative action, which is a very bad policy in itself, but the idea didn't come from liberals. That poison of identity politics originated with racists.
That red text you added is pure sophistry.
Thomas Jefferson founded the Democratic Party in about 1796.
The first black codes or slave codes in effect in English speaking North America were written more than 150 years before that.
Trying to blame really old and really complicated stuff on the party you don't like, simply because you don't like them, is what dumb people do when they're trying to sound smart. In other words, sophistry.
03-07-2020, 03:48 PM
Mikey learned a new word.
03-07-2020, 04:37 PM
(03-07-2020, 03:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 11:17 AM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ]FTFY
That red text you added is pure sophistry.
Thomas Jefferson founded the Democratic Party in about 1796.
The first black codes or slave codes in effect in English speaking North America were written more than 150 years before that.
Trying to blame really old and really complicated stuff on the party you don't like, simply because you don't like them, is what dumb people do when they're trying to sound smart. In other words, sophistry.
And it was white men who captured the Africans and sold them into slavery? Any other fairy tales you want to support?
The Democrat Party may not have created slavery in America, but they were the party that defended it and then relegated black Americans to second class citizens after slavery was abolished.
03-07-2020, 04:44 PM
(03-07-2020, 03:48 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Mikey learned a new word.
Hopefully you pick it up too because it describes you to a T. You can, and should do better.
03-07-2020, 04:49 PM
Nope. Sorry. You're bad at this.
03-07-2020, 04:50 PM
(03-07-2020, 04:37 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 03:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]That red text you added is pure sophistry.
Thomas Jefferson founded the Democratic Party in about 1796.
The first black codes or slave codes in effect in English speaking North America were written more than 150 years before that.
Trying to blame really old and really complicated stuff on the party you don't like, simply because you don't like them, is what dumb people do when they're trying to sound smart. In other words, sophistry.
And it was white men who captured the Africans and sold them into slavery? Any other fairy tales you want to support?
The Democrat Party may not have created slavery in America, but they were the party that defended it and then relegated black Americans to second class citizens after slavery was abolished.
Where do you get off on this first paragraph?
I didn't blame white people for anything.
But if the transaction is immoral, the buyer and the seller are both immoral. The John does not get to blame the pimp, nor does the pimp get to blame the John.
This little sub thread started because somebody connected racism to the founding of the Democratic Party. I have already shown that this is fallacious. now you're moving the goal posts and discussing other ways that Democrats kept black people down later in history. While your argument is at least factually accurate, it is not very persuasive for how we should vote today because it's dealing with stuff that was about 60 years old, 15 presidential election cycles, all of the politicians who followed that pattern are dead, and irrelevant.
03-07-2020, 08:58 PM
(03-07-2020, 04:50 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 04:37 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]And it was white men who captured the Africans and sold them into slavery? Any other fairy tales you want to support?
The Democrat Party may not have created slavery in America, but they were the party that defended it and then relegated black Americans to second class citizens after slavery was abolished.
Where do you get off on this first paragraph?
I didn't blame white people for anything.
But if the transaction is immoral, the buyer and the seller are both immoral. The John does not get to blame the pimp, nor does the pimp get to blame the John.
This little sub thread started because somebody connected racism to the founding of the Democratic Party. I have already shown that this is fallacious. now you're moving the goal posts and discussing other ways that Democrats kept black people down later in history. While your argument is at least factually accurate, it is not very persuasive for how we should vote today because it's dealing with stuff that was about 60 years old, 15 presidential election cycles, all of the politicians who followed that pattern are dead, and irrelevant.
No, the sub thread started with this:
Quote:I agree with much of what you say, but you have to admit, it all started with white people. For example, the so-called "one drop" rule, where if you had one drop of black blood in you, you were black. Half black and half white was considered black, as it is today, but that rule started with white people.
Liberals are just doing what conservatives did many years ago, and it's what people do all the time today, and that is, making up "rules" and "categories of people" when they think it's to their advantage to do so.
It's reprehensible, but don't act like liberals invented this stuff. A lot of it was the liberal reaction to racism and discrimination, when they invented affirmative action, which is a very bad policy in itself, but the idea didn't come from liberals. That poison of identity politics originated with racists.
You changed it to slavery, not racism. I didn't move the goalposts, you did. Note the phrase "conservatives did many years ago."
03-07-2020, 10:29 PM
I hope you soul less Democrats are proud of what you have done.
Joe Biden sums up his campaign:
"We cannot win this re-election. We can only re-elect Donald Trump." https://t.co/TrO7pCUCUT
Joe Biden sums up his campaign:
"We cannot win this re-election. We can only re-elect Donald Trump." https://t.co/TrO7pCUCUT
03-07-2020, 11:06 PM
I'm staring at my absentee ballot for the primary, and I'm strongly of the opinion that it doesn't matter because the Democrats saw what happened to the Republicans when they became the party of Trump, and the DNC doesn't want to lose that control. So, of course, instead of the less senile old white guy who could actually win but would take all the power away from the DNC itself, they're stacking the deck in favor of the extremely senile old white guy who will go out and lose like a good soldier. He might even remember running by the time 2021 rolls around.
[BLEEP] it. I'm filling in Gabbard's circle.
[BLEEP] it. I'm filling in Gabbard's circle.
03-07-2020, 11:40 PM
(03-07-2020, 11:06 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]I'm staring at my absentee ballot for the primary, and I'm strongly of the opinion that it doesn't matter because the Democrats saw what happened to the Republicans when they became the party of Trump, and the DNC doesn't want to lose that control. So, of course, instead of the less senile old white guy who could actually win but would take all the power away from the DNC itself, they're stacking the deck in favor of the extremely senile old white guy who will go out and lose like a good soldier. He might even remember running by the time 2021 rolls around.
[BLEEP] it. I'm filling in Gabbard's circle.
Good soldier? You mean dog faced pony soldier?
Take solace in knowing President Gabbard will be easy on the eyes and we will never have a regime change war.
03-07-2020, 11:46 PM
(03-07-2020, 11:06 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]I'm staring at my absentee ballot for the primary, and I'm strongly of the opinion that it doesn't matter because the Democrats saw what happened to the Republicans when they became the party of Trump, and the DNC doesn't want to lose that control. So, of course, instead of the less senile old white guy who could actually win but would take all the power away from the DNC itself, they're stacking the deck in favor of the extremely senile old white guy who will go out and lose like a good soldier. He might even remember running by the time 2021 rolls around.
[BLEEP] it. I'm filling in Gabbard's circle.
I'd fill Tulsi's circle IYKWIMAITYD..
03-08-2020, 08:31 AM
(03-07-2020, 08:58 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 04:50 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Where do you get off on this first paragraph?
I didn't blame white people for anything.
But if the transaction is immoral, the buyer and the seller are both immoral. The John does not get to blame the pimp, nor does the pimp get to blame the John.
This little sub thread started because somebody connected racism to the founding of the Democratic Party. I have already shown that this is fallacious. now you're moving the goal posts and discussing other ways that Democrats kept black people down later in history. While your argument is at least factually accurate, it is not very persuasive for how we should vote today because it's dealing with stuff that was about 60 years old, 15 presidential election cycles, all of the politicians who followed that pattern are dead, and irrelevant.
No, the sub thread started with this:
Quote:I agree with much of what you say, but you have to admit, it all started with white people. For example, the so-called "one drop" rule, where if you had one drop of black blood in you, you were black. Half black and half white was considered black, as it is today, but that rule started with white people.
Liberals are just doing what conservatives did many years ago, and it's what people do all the time today, and that is, making up "rules" and "categories of people" when they think it's to their advantage to do so.
It's reprehensible, but don't act like liberals invented this stuff. A lot of it was the liberal reaction to racism and discrimination, when they invented affirmative action, which is a very bad policy in itself, but the idea didn't come from liberals. That poison of identity politics originated with racists.
You changed it to slavery, not racism. I didn't move the goalposts, you did. Note the phrase "conservatives did many years ago."
Of course I noted that phrase, but that's not what I was responding to. I had no problem with Marty's post. Handsome Rob change that phrase. And 42 minutes was also trying to push a similar thought. Blame it on only Democrats. Blame it on only progressives. That's when I jumped in. In order to take the timeline of understanding back far enough to the founding of the Democratic Party, you have to realize that people weren't merely racist back then. They actually held slaves.
03-08-2020, 08:37 AM
Race and Racism, societal not tribal, were born in the Middle Ages. Yes it was white people, no, they weren't Americans. Slavery is older than that.
03-08-2020, 10:43 AM
(03-08-2020, 08:37 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Race and Racism, societal not tribal, were born in the Middle Ages. Yes it was white people, no, they weren't Americans. Slavery is older than that.
Yes. One of the earliest written references to white people being "better" is in the Spanish Reconquista. That started out as an effort to get Christians back in control instead of Muslims. But it morphed into creating a new nobility of only the palest people, so that the Moors and Arabs would be excluded, regardless of if they had converted to Christianity. But other than the Spanish, most Europeans weren't traveling more than a few miles from where they were born, and they weren't encountering anybody with a different skin color than them. They didn't have an opinion about such people, good or bad.
In those days, the life of a rural peasant would sometimes be almost as bad as slavery, because they were not allowed to leave their master's land and they had to work when the master said "work". The lives of urban workers were tangled up in the guild system. A young man would start off as an apprentice in his father's profession, but once he graduated to journeyman and then to master, he had a lot of freedom to decide what clients he wanted and how quickly he would work. But a rural peasant had nothing to graduate to.
In those days, Africans and native Americans were conquering each other and enslaving their prisoners, but Europeans hadn't done that for about a thousand years. When Columbus arrived to the new world, he tried to treat the natives similar to how peasants were treated in Spain (which is not good, but also not slavery). But it didn't take long before the Europeans coming after Columbus noticed how the natives and the Africans treated each other, and decided to join in. And the Spanish concept of white supremacy played into it, and spread to the Portuguese. About 100 years later the Dutch, French, and English joined in.
03-08-2020, 11:40 AM
OK google, could you define the term progressive for me, especially as it pertains to politics around the turn of the 20th century?
03-08-2020, 12:11 PM
(03-08-2020, 08:31 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 08:58 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No, the sub thread started with this:
You changed it to slavery, not racism. I didn't move the goalposts, you did. Note the phrase "conservatives did many years ago."
Of course I noted that phrase, but that's not what I was responding to. I had no problem with Marty's post. Handsome Rob change that phrase. And 42 minutes was also trying to push a similar thought. Blame it on only Democrats. Blame it on only progressives. That's when I jumped in. In order to take the timeline of understanding back far enough to the founding of the Democratic Party, you have to realize that people weren't merely racist back then. They actually held slaves.
Marty's post blamed racism on the whites and the "conservatives" which he equates with Republicans. You had no problem with Marty blaming one side of the political spectrum but take offense at someone pointing out that the other side was the main source (originated Jim Crow and the KKK)?
You must like the job the government is doing on healthcare too (see my post in the COVID-19 thread). Next you'll blame it on Trump while it's the career bureaucrats (the "deep state" and based on what we've seen in the last four years, mainly partisan Democrats) at the CDC who are at fault.
And then you change the narrative to how we should ignore stuff about 60 years old. That was the "many years ago" that Marty was describing.
03-08-2020, 01:00 PM
(03-08-2020, 12:11 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ](03-08-2020, 08:31 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Of course I noted that phrase, but that's not what I was responding to. I had no problem with Marty's post. Handsome Rob change that phrase. And 42 minutes was also trying to push a similar thought. Blame it on only Democrats. Blame it on only progressives. That's when I jumped in. In order to take the timeline of understanding back far enough to the founding of the Democratic Party, you have to realize that people weren't merely racist back then. They actually held slaves.
Marty's post blamed racism on the whites and the "conservatives" which he equates with Republicans. You had no problem with Marty blaming one side of the political spectrum but take offense at someone pointing out that the other side was the main source (originated Jim Crow and the KKK)?
And then you change the narrative to how we should ignore stuff about 60 years old. That was the "many years ago" that Marty was describing.
Liberals didn't really exist in the 1530s when the Spanish and portuguese were stocking the Americas with African slaves. John Locke invented liberalism in 1689. Conservatives have always existed though. Conservatives are the people who try to preserve the way of life and beliefs of their ancestors. Which is a good thing. Edmund Burke in the 1770s kind of invented a conservative view of how different governments and societies should respect each other's autonomy, so it's not that conservatives never have original thoughts, but conservatives have always been around
And again, it's not that we should ignore this stuff. I wouldn't be discussing it if I thought we should ignore it. It's that we shouldn't let such old stuff dictate how we vote today.
03-08-2020, 01:39 PM
(03-08-2020, 12:11 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ](03-08-2020, 08:31 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Of course I noted that phrase, but that's not what I was responding to. I had no problem with Marty's post. Handsome Rob change that phrase. And 42 minutes was also trying to push a similar thought. Blame it on only Democrats. Blame it on only progressives. That's when I jumped in. In order to take the timeline of understanding back far enough to the founding of the Democratic Party, you have to realize that people weren't merely racist back then. They actually held slaves.
Marty's post blamed racism on the whites and the "conservatives" which he equates with Republicans. You had no problem with Marty blaming one side of the political spectrum but take offense at someone pointing out that the other side was the main source (originated Jim Crow and the KKK)?
You must like the job the government is doing on healthcare too (see my post in the COVID-19 thread). Next you'll blame it on Trump while it's the career bureaucrats (the "deep state" and based on what we've seen in the last four years, mainly partisan Democrats) at the CDC who are at fault.
And then you change the narrative to how we should ignore stuff about 60 years old. That was the "many years ago" that Marty was describing.
I didn't use the words "Republican" or "Democrat," and that is because the parties have switched sides on the subject of identity politics. What I was saying was that identity politics in the United States originated with conservative white people. Liberals have adopted it, starting around the 1970s, and that is reprehensible, but it didn't originate with them. Liberals used to be in favor of things like having a "color-blind society," for example. "Content of their character, not color of their skin" for example, was rhetoric that came from liberals. Identity politics, rooted in racism, was part of the conservative philosophy. It is ironic that conservatives and liberals now seem to have flipped on the issue of identity politics.
Identity politics is bad, but I was just pointing out, it did not originate with liberals. It originated with racist white conservatives who wanted to maintain the advantages they had in life, and exclude people of other races from full equality.
03-08-2020, 01:45 PM
(03-08-2020, 08:31 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ](03-07-2020, 08:58 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No, the sub thread started with this:
You changed it to slavery, not racism. I didn't move the goalposts, you did. Note the phrase "conservatives did many years ago."
Of course I noted that phrase, but that's not what I was responding to. I had no problem with Marty's post. Handsome Rob change that phrase. And 42 minutes was also trying to push a similar thought. Blame it on only Democrats. Blame it on only progressives. That's when I jumped in. In order to take the timeline of understanding back far enough to the founding of the Democratic Party, you have to realize that people weren't merely racist back then. They actually held slaves.
So your rebuttal of democrats defending slavery since their inception is.... there were slave owners prior to the Democrats? Of course there were, neoliberals progressives have always had/wanted slaves. The democrat party was started by an well known slave owner according to you, Thomas Jefferson. They have always been for slavery.