(06-14-2023, 09:44 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2023, 06:54 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Winger, I hate to say it, man, but Trump is not looking good. I know Trump is saying he can declassify whatever he wants, but the evidence is starting to stack up that he knew it was classified, he didn't declassify it, and he intentionally hid it. Why? I don't know. I do believe he is being attacked by the "deep state," but he is aiding them by making bad choices. One can't simply choose just to ignore [BLEEP]. No person should be above the law.
Imagine a world where our media and DOJ were this relentless with all of our politicians. Man, we could actually have nice things again.
Here's the thing though. Let's say Trump is guilty of lying to them, moving the docs, and whatever else the charge was.
How did they get any of these docs? They got an illegal search warrant, they then used that to get a judge to violate his attorney client privilege and get the notes and recording.
If NARA says everything is personal property, they can't force him to turn it over. The warrant and everything else becomes inadmissible. The case is then over because there is nothing left to prove anything.
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11th circuit already ruled the FBI could see all but the most personal docs. Try again.
From Karl Rove via the Wall Street Journal:
Trump Invited This Indictment
"The blame for this calamity rests solely on Mr. Trump and his childish impulse to keep mementos from his time in the Oval Office, no matter what the law says. One of the relevant statutes is the Presidential Records Act, which states that “the United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of presidential records.” The PRA defines these in the most expansive way imaginable. Essentially every scrap of paper, text or email the president or his staff creates or receives is a presidential record, except his personal diary, private political materials unrelated to the presidency, and campaign papers."
"Mr. Trump says there’s no criminal penalty for violating the Presidential Records Act. That’s true, but it only highlights how damning his behavior was. Congress thought a law so simple and clear would be honored by anyone entrusted with the presidency. Instead of living up to his office, Mr. Trump treated it and America’s national security flippantly, taking thousands of presidential records, among them hundreds of highly classified documents. It should have been evident to anyone who once occupied the Oval Office that documents containing some of the nation’s most important secrets shouldn’t be treated as trophies, shared with private guests, discussed with political associates or stored in bathrooms or ballrooms. Any staffer found guilty of doing that would go to prison for breaking the laws protecting the nation’s secrets, as Mr Trump is now charged."
(06-14-2023, 10:02 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2023, 09:44 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]Here's the thing though. Let's say Trump is guilty of lying to them, moving the docs, and whatever else the charge was.
How did they get any of these docs? They got an illegal search warrant, they then used that to get a judge to violate his attorney client privilege and get the notes and recording.
If NARA says everything is personal property, they can't force him to turn it over. The warrant and everything else becomes inadmissible. The case is then over because there is nothing left to prove anything.
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11th circuit already ruled the FBI could see all but the most personal docs. Try again.
Agreed but the lawyers Trump had, which seems to be a recurring issue, were stupid and didn't seem to defend Trump like they should. They tried to work with NARA when they should have seen what was coming.
The issue still can be brought back up and show that it was illegal or even if they look through everything, they still can't take anything as it all declassified and personal property.
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(06-15-2023, 08:37 AM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]Hmmmmmm
https://twitter.com/gatewaypundit/status...1EBGQ&s=19
Don't take this at face value but the <200 docs don't need all the boxes they have shown.
The classified docs # is not a page #, so it could fill more than 1 box and maybe 2 or 3 at most.
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(06-15-2023, 06:42 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]From Karl Rove via the Wall Street Journal:
Trump Invited This Indictment
"The blame for this calamity rests solely on Mr. Trump and his childish impulse to keep mementos from his time in the Oval Office, no matter what the law says. One of the relevant statutes is the Presidential Records Act, which states that “the United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of presidential records.” The PRA defines these in the most expansive way imaginable. Essentially every scrap of paper, text or email the president or his staff creates or receives is a presidential record, except his personal diary, private political materials unrelated to the presidency, and campaign papers."
"Mr. Trump says there’s no criminal penalty for violating the Presidential Records Act. That’s true, but it only highlights how damning his behavior was. Congress thought a law so simple and clear would be honored by anyone entrusted with the presidency. Instead of living up to his office, Mr. Trump treated it and America’s national security flippantly, taking thousands of presidential records, among them hundreds of highly classified documents. It should have been evident to anyone who once occupied the Oval Office that documents containing some of the nation’s most important secrets shouldn’t be treated as trophies, shared with private guests, discussed with political associates or stored in bathrooms or ballrooms. Any staffer found guilty of doing that would go to prison for breaking the laws protecting the nation’s secrets, as Mr Trump is now charged."
This is the most reasonable comment that I've seen as of yet. Trump seriously feels that He's Above the Law to which he can/will throw money at the court system and get away w/all or most of his Ridiculousness. He continues to push the envelope of which so far he's gotten away w/this rhetoric. He's the first in U.S. History to be indicted as an former President let alone the indictments as a Sitting President.
No Man or Woman is above the law and if/when the law states that you'll be convicted, then so be it.
Time Will Tell.
NH3...
(06-15-2023, 06:32 PM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 06:42 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]From Karl Rove via the Wall Street Journal:
Trump Invited This Indictment
"The blame for this calamity rests solely on Mr. Trump and his childish impulse to keep mementos from his time in the Oval Office, no matter what the law says. One of the relevant statutes is the Presidential Records Act, which states that “the United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of presidential records.” The PRA defines these in the most expansive way imaginable. Essentially every scrap of paper, text or email the president or his staff creates or receives is a presidential record, except his personal diary, private political materials unrelated to the presidency, and campaign papers."
"Mr. Trump says there’s no criminal penalty for violating the Presidential Records Act. That’s true, but it only highlights how damning his behavior was. Congress thought a law so simple and clear would be honored by anyone entrusted with the presidency. Instead of living up to his office, Mr. Trump treated it and America’s national security flippantly, taking thousands of presidential records, among them hundreds of highly classified documents. It should have been evident to anyone who once occupied the Oval Office that documents containing some of the nation’s most important secrets shouldn’t be treated as trophies, shared with private guests, discussed with political associates or stored in bathrooms or ballrooms. Any staffer found guilty of doing that would go to prison for breaking the laws protecting the nation’s secrets, as Mr Trump is now charged."
This is the most reasonable comment that I've seen as of yet. Trump seriously feels that He's Above the Law to which he can/will throw money at the court system and get away w/all or most of his Ridiculousness. He continues to push the envelope of which so far he's gotten away w/this rhetoric. He's the first in U.S. History to be indicted as an former President let alone the indictments as a Sitting President.
No Man or Woman is above the law and if/when the law states that you'll be convicted, then so be it.
Time Will Tell.
NH3...
Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
(06-15-2023, 07:43 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 06:32 PM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ]This is the most reasonable comment that I've seen as of yet. Trump seriously feels that He's Above the Law to which he can/will throw money at the court system and get away w/all or most of his Ridiculousness. He continues to push the envelope of which so far he's gotten away w/this rhetoric. He's the first in U.S. History to be indicted as an former President let alone the indictments as a Sitting President.
No Man or Woman is above the law and if/when the law states that you'll be convicted, then so be it.
Time Will Tell.
NH3...
Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
So someone comes along and ruins enough things that he causes people who used to be enemies to unite to fight him, and that means he's... good?
I mean I know you say you didn't vote for Dubya but that's because you're a libertarian. Trump ain't no libertarian though. The rest of the Republicans are more libertarian than him. I don't get the attraction for you.
(06-15-2023, 07:59 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 07:43 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
So someone comes along and ruins enough things that he causes people who used to be enemies to unite to fight him, and that means he's... good?
I mean I know you say you didn't vote for Dubya but that's because you're a libertarian. Trump ain't no libertarian though. The rest of the Republicans are more libertarian than him. I don't get the attraction for you.
You don't understand why the enemy of the Establishment is on my side? That you believe your cadre of the Uniparty is the best choice completely checks.out.
(06-16-2023, 06:31 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 07:59 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]So someone comes along and ruins enough things that he causes people who used to be enemies to unite to fight him, and that means he's... good?
I mean I know you say you didn't vote for Dubya but that's because you're a libertarian. Trump ain't no libertarian though. The rest of the Republicans are more libertarian than him. I don't get the attraction for you.
You don't understand why the enemy of the Establishment is on my side? That you believe your cadre of the Uniparty is the best choice completely checks.out.
The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
The "uniparty" as you call them have many other enemies besides Trump. For instance, the voting reform groups that I give money to, both Democrats and Republicans hate. And then of course they have so many more enemies once you look around the world. Is Iran your friend? Is China?
(06-16-2023, 07:26 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 06:31 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You don't understand why the enemy of the Establishment is on my side? That you believe your cadre of the Uniparty is the best choice completely checks.out.
The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
The "uniparty" as you call them have many other enemies besides Trump. For instance, the voting reform groups that I give money to, both Democrats and Republicans hate. And then of course they have so many more enemies once you look around the world. Is Iran your friend? Is China?
Prime example of the enemy of our enemy not necessarily being our friend is Josef Stalin.
(06-15-2023, 07:43 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 06:32 PM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ]This is the most reasonable comment that I've seen as of yet. Trump seriously feels that He's Above the Law to which he can/will throw money at the court system and get away w/all or most of his Ridiculousness. He continues to push the envelope of which so far he's gotten away w/this rhetoric. He's the first in U.S. History to be indicted as an former President let alone the indictments as a Sitting President.
No Man or Woman is above the law and if/when the law states that you'll be convicted, then so be it.
Time Will Tell.
NH3...
Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
So, since Trump was in power for four years, if he is the enemy of the swamp, why is the swamp still there as powerful as ever?
Could it be that Trump is just full of bull [BLEEP]?
(06-16-2023, 09:54 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 07:43 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
So, since Trump was in power for four years, if he is the enemy of the swamp, why is the swamp still there as powerful as ever?
Could it be that Trump is just full of bull [BLEEP]?
Trump had some policy success. He got the tax cuts he wanted. He banned immigration from certain dangerous countries and that ban continues today. When you have a definite goal in Washington you can achieve it. If he had defined "swamp" in some sort of definite way, he could have started firing those individuals and changing the behavior of the people left over. But it was clear to anyone with eyes that by "swamp" he meant "people who criticize me or oppose my whims." And that's not definite enough to build a policy around unless you're a monarch who's going to be on the throne for a decade or two.
(06-16-2023, 10:06 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 09:54 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]So, since Trump was in power for four years, if he is the enemy of the swamp, why is the swamp still there as powerful as ever?
Could it be that Trump is just full of bull [BLEEP]?
Trump had some policy success. He got the tax cuts he wanted. He banned immigration from certain dangerous countries and that ban continues today. When you have a definite goal in Washington you can achieve it. If he had defined "swamp" in some sort of definite way, he could have started firing those individuals and changing the behavior of the people left over. But it was clear to anyone with eyes that by "swamp" he meant "people who criticize me or oppose my whims." And that's not definite enough to build a policy around unless you're a monarch who's going to be on the throne for a decade or two.
After 4 years of him being President, his supporters still complain about the "swamp" just as much as before, so it seems like they would find a candidate who can actually accomplish something in the regard other than just talk about it.
Of course, anyone with a brain knows the truth. Trump is just full of [BLEEP].
(06-16-2023, 07:26 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 06:31 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You don't understand why the enemy of the Establishment is on my side? That you believe your cadre of the Uniparty is the best choice completely checks.out.
The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
The "uniparty" as you call them have many other enemies besides Trump. For instance, the voting reform groups that I give money to, both Democrats and Republicans hate. And then of course they have so many more enemies once you look around the world. Is Iran your friend? Is China?
Trump is ideologically between me and the Unitparty. His success helps my goals and he's actually less difficult to deal with in the future than they are. Call him a Useful Idiot to my cause much like you guys are to the Uniparty.
(06-16-2023, 09:54 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-15-2023, 07:43 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, now you guys are listening to Karl Rove. This just gets better and better. Never has te face of The Swamp been so revealed as when they all band together to attack the one person who turns out to be their common enemy. And you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
So, since Trump was in power for four years, if he is the enemy of the swamp, why is the swamp still there as powerful as ever?
Could it be that Trump is just full of bull [BLEEP]?
You really think any one person could undo 100 years of entrenchment in just a few years? Even just his actions that have brought so much corruption and government overreach to light have been valuable.
(06-14-2023, 02:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2023, 02:12 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Biden has been an absolute loser and has done nothing good for the country.
I saw CNN the most liberal left wing network, displayed a poll that had Bidens approval rating in the 30s. Lowest by a president in his first term in 80 years.
Sounds right. Trump’s approval rating was about that low too.
When two very different men get basically the same approval rating, they're not the problem. We are. Even if either Trump or Biden were totally competent, we handcuffed both of them with idiots in Congress who only want to throw bombs and snipe at each other. We need to stop blaming Presidents for this negative partisanship stuff, and stop expecting the next guy to fix it. We need to fix it. We need to change our election laws and processes to get more competent, self sacrificing people into the lower levels of government. Then and only then we might have a President able to do a really good job.
You want to blame both sides (no surprise), but it is solidly the left that doesn't debate in good faith. They instead resort to, among other things, political theater and supporting measures, both legal and illegal, that accelerate changes in demographics to that which leans permanently leftward. In other words, by any means necessary. There's not really any coming to the table with that. They need to be defeated, soundly, but their grip on the education system will probably prevent that from ever happening.
(06-16-2023, 10:17 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 10:06 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Trump had some policy success. He got the tax cuts he wanted. He banned immigration from certain dangerous countries and that ban continues today. When you have a definite goal in Washington you can achieve it. If he had defined "swamp" in some sort of definite way, he could have started firing those individuals and changing the behavior of the people left over. But it was clear to anyone with eyes that by "swamp" he meant "people who criticize me or oppose my whims." And that's not definite enough to build a policy around unless you're a monarch who's going to be on the throne for a decade or two.
After 4 years of him being President, his supporters still complain about the "swamp" just as much as before, so it seems like they would find a candidate who can actually accomplish something in the regard other than just talk about it.
Of course, anyone with a brain knows the truth. Trump is just full of [BLEEP].
It seems to me that Trump's remaining supporters have the same definition for "swamp" that he has. "People I don't like, people who say negative things about me or about people I like."
It isn't an actionable definition.
But it is unifying. They all get to imagine that they hate the same types of people even though they don't.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Suppose we have two career DoJ officials in front of us. Which one is so deeply entrenched in "swamp life" that they need to be fired, and which can be retrained? How can you tell? What retraining do you offer the remaining one?
(06-16-2023, 10:35 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2023, 02:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds right. Trump’s approval rating was about that low too.
When two very different men get basically the same approval rating, they're not the problem. We are. Even if either Trump or Biden were totally competent, we handcuffed both of them with idiots in Congress who only want to throw bombs and snipe at each other. We need to stop blaming Presidents for this negative partisanship stuff, and stop expecting the next guy to fix it. We need to fix it. We need to change our election laws and processes to get more competent, self sacrificing people into the lower levels of government. Then and only then we might have a President able to do a really good job.
You want to blame both sides (no surprise), but it is solidly the left that doesn't debate in good faith. They instead resort to, among other things, political theater and supporting measures, both legal and illegal, that accelerate changes in demographics to that which leans permanently leftward. In other words, by any means necessary. There's not really any coming to the table with that. They need to be defeated, soundly, but their grip on the education system will probably prevent that from ever happening.
Sorry brother.
Not enough people agree with you to give that side the support they need to implement their vision.
In fact, many would construe what you just said as a racist dog whistle, so they wouldn't remain neutral but rather they would fight you out of righteous indignation.
So trying to win the way you want to win is only going to dig the hole deeper.
You need to judo flip this whole thing.
We all do.
(06-16-2023, 10:39 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 10:17 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]After 4 years of him being President, his supporters still complain about the "swamp" just as much as before, so it seems like they would find a candidate who can actually accomplish something in the regard other than just talk about it.
Of course, anyone with a brain knows the truth. Trump is just full of [BLEEP].
It seems to me that Trump's remaining supporters have the same definition for "swamp" that he has. "People I don't like, people who say negative things about me or about people I like."
It isn't an actionable definition.
But it is unifying. They all get to imagine that they hate the same types of people even though they don't.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Suppose we have two career DoJ officials in front of us. Which one is so deeply entrenched in "swamp life" that they need to be fired, and which can be retrained? How can you tell? What retraining do you offer the remaining one?
(06-16-2023, 10:35 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]You want to blame both sides (no surprise), but it is solidly the left that doesn't debate in good faith. They instead resort to, among other things, political theater and supporting measures, both legal and illegal, that accelerate changes in demographics to that which leans permanently leftward. In other words, by any means necessary. There's not really any coming to the table with that. They need to be defeated, soundly, but their grip on the education system will probably prevent that from ever happening.
Sorry brother.
Not enough people agree with you to give that side the support they need to implement their vision.
In fact, many would construe what you just said as a racist dog whistle, so they wouldn't remain neutral but rather they would fight you out of righteous indignation.
So trying to win the way you want to win is only going to dig the hole deeper.
You need to judo flip this whole thing.
We all do.
And you're a jackass for thinking that.. My definition for The Swamp would be, people elected to office to line their pockets and enrich their bottom line.. That includes YOUR President. Go read another NPR article..
And I guarantee you that I'm not alone in my thinking.
(06-16-2023, 11:53 AM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ] (06-16-2023, 10:39 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It seems to me that Trump's remaining supporters have the same definition for "swamp" that he has. "People I don't like, people who say negative things about me or about people I like."
It isn't an actionable definition.
But it is unifying. They all get to imagine that they hate the same types of people even though they don't.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Suppose we have two career DoJ officials in front of us. Which one is so deeply entrenched in "swamp life" that they need to be fired, and which can be retrained? How can you tell? What retraining do you offer the remaining one?
Sorry brother.
Not enough people agree with you to give that side the support they need to implement their vision.
In fact, many would construe what you just said as a racist dog whistle, so they wouldn't remain neutral but rather they would fight you out of righteous indignation.
So trying to win the way you want to win is only going to dig the hole deeper.
You need to judo flip this whole thing.
We all do.
And you're a jackass for thinking that.. My definition for The Swamp would be, people elected to office to line their pockets and enrich their bottom line.. That includes YOUR President. Go read another NPR article..
And I guarantee you that I'm not alone in my thinking.
So what did Trump accomplish on that issue in his four years in office?