Quote:Actually, it's not. There are leftist tendencies on social issues, but on the key issues that matter, they're leaning the other way.
Left or Right is defined by social issues. If you are talking about Keynesian or Austrian Economics, then yeah, almost all libertarians lean Austrian.
Quote:In its purest form it could contain left-wing ideals, but the problem with libertarianism is it is inherently self defeating. With no authority it can't provide enforcement of any ideals at all, except for the notion of no central authority.
I didn't know we had to submit to the ideals of others. I was always taught America was a free nation.
You confuse libertarianism with anarchy.
Quote:I didn't know we had to submit to the ideals of others. I was always taught America was a free nation.
You confuse libertarianism with anarchy.
No, I don't confuse anything. If you're enforcing anyone's ideals on anyone at all then you're really just arguing degrees of authoritarianism, and I don't see why anyone would see the worth in adhering to an ideal from someone else if the idea is liberty.
Quote:Shocker: The unindustrialized world has a low quality of life! Apparently its because those countries are too free. We all need to be more like Greece.
Yes, I would pull *most* of the supports out from under the nation... and replace them with crutches. The government's role isn't to make everyone meet some arbitrary quality of life. "What did he just say? He must hate poor people!!!" No, that's called socialism.
It's embarrassing that socialists don't have the intestinal fortitude to even label themselves as such. Instead, they are capitalists who just want everyone to have equality.
Agreed on all of the above.
I do disagree that Libertarianism is a leftist ideology. It's all about getting government out of our lives. In that respect, it's more in tune with what true conservatives hold at their core, particularly when it comes to individual liberty. Libertarianism rebuffs government intervention in the free markets beyond creating a framework for legally trading, and in handling disputes. That certainly isn't a leftist view. They don't think it's the government's place to dictate how we conserve the environment. They want to repeal the tax code and abolish the IRS. They think it's unacceptable for government to incur debt, and feel the Constitution should be amended to require a balanced budget.
Stop me when I get to the leftist stuff.
They believe financial markets should be free from government intervention in any ways other than to handle illegal activity. They're not pro labor union. They believe education and healthcare are better served by the free market and not by the government. They think social security should be phased out and replaced by private, voluntary systems. They feel that charity is best handled by the private sector, and not by government.
Go read the Libertarian party platform. I just rattled off a few of their positions, but it sure doesn't sound leftist to me in the big areas that matter most. On social issues? Yeah, they do skew left of center. But, on almost every issue that matters with regard to individual liberty or economic liberty, they're pretty darn conservative.
Quote:Agreed on all of the above.
I do disagree that Libertarianism is a leftist ideology. It's all about getting government out of our lives. In that respect, it's more in tune with what true conservatives hold at their core, particularly when it comes to individual liberty. Libertarianism rebuffs government intervention in the free markets beyond creating a framework for legally trading, and in handling disputes. That certainly isn't a leftist view. They don't think it's the government's place to dictate how we conserve the environment. They want to repeal the tax code and abolish the IRS. They think it's unacceptable for government to incur debt, and feel the Constitution should be amended to require a balanced budget.
Stop me when I get to the leftist stuff.
They believe financial markets should be free from government intervention in any ways other than to handle illegal activity. They're not pro labor union. They believe education and healthcare are better served by the free market and not by the government. They think social security should be phased out and replaced by private, voluntary systems. They feel that charity is best handled by the private sector, and not by government.
Go read the Libertarian party platform. I just rattled off a few of their positions, but it sure doesn't sound leftist to me in the big areas that matter most. On social issues? Yeah, they do skew left of center. But, on almost every issue that matters with regard to individual liberty or economic liberty, they're pretty darn conservative.
We agree, but we just have differing definitions of liberal. I tend to go more by European definition because it makes more sense to me. America has kind of warped the definition. By American definition, modern day conservatism is actually liberal in some regards... which makes no sense.
Quote:No, I don't confuse anything. If you're enforcing anyone's ideals on anyone at all then you're really just arguing degrees of authoritarianism, and I don't see why anyone would see the worth in adhering to an ideal from someone else if the idea is liberty.
Well, if you can't see how anyone would embrace the ideal of personal liberty, then that's all that needs to be said.
It may also be a sign of why young people are increasingly shifting from majority democrat into libertarian/tea party.
Quote:Well, if you can't see how anyone would embrace the ideal of personal liberty, then that's all that needs to be said.
It may also be a sign of why young people are increasingly shifting from majority democrat into libertarian/tea party.
No no, I love personal liberty.
Like I said, corporations can go ahead and dump toxic waste in your drinking water and sell you poisonous food. After all, it's their liberty to live their lives the way they want to without the government coming in to tell them how they have to run their business.
Quote:No no, I love personal liberty.
Like I said, corporations can go ahead and dump toxic waste in your drinking water and sell you poisonous food. After all, it's their liberty to live their lives the way they want to without the government coming in to tell them how they have to run their business.
I've been trying not to humor you, but I'll give you this one.
How would dumping toxic waste on your neighbor not be an issue of personal liberty? There would be a civil tort which would award millions to whoever had their liberties infringed upon in such a way.
Quote:I've been trying not to humor you, but I'll give you this one.
How would dumping toxic waste on your neighbor not be an issue of personal liberty? There would be a civil tort which would award millions to whoever had their liberties infringed upon in such a way.
No, that (the court) is big government, we need to get it out of the way. The people in charge of corporations don't need the government telling them how to do business, you should have bought your land upstream from them and tested your own food for botulism if you didn't want to be poisoned and dead.
Quote:No, that (the court) is big government, we need to get it out of the way. The people in charge of corporations don't need the government telling them how to do business, you should have bought your land upstream from them and tested your own food for botulism if you didn't want to be poisoned and dead.
Really? Since when have libertarians supported the abolition of the judicial branch of government? You should change your name to Hyperbolomie. Again, you're confusing libertarianism with anarchy.
Quote:Really? Since when have libertarians supported the abolition of the judicial branch of government? You should change your name to Hyperbolomie. Again, you're confusing libertarianism with anarchy.
I told you, I'm not confusing anything.
We're just arguing degrees of libertarianism. You seem to want the big government protecting you, I'm claiming that you need to take responsibility for your own personal liberty and start testing your own food for poison. It's not big government's responsibility to do something about it afterward because you're just too cheap to have a food taster.
Quote:I told you, I'm not confusing anything.
We're just arguing degrees of libertarianism. You seem to want the big government protecting you, I'm claiming that you need to take responsibility for your own personal liberty and start testing your own food for poison. It's not big government's responsibility to do something about it afterward because you're just too cheap to have a food taster.
No, you clearly are confused.
Libertarianism has nothing to do with abolishing the constitution. If you want to argue about the EPA, DOE, or TSA, then you might trick people into thinking you want to have a logical discussion. Instead you come with this hyperbolic drivel.
My turn. Hey, how about we just tax all corporations and citizens 100%. The key to a wealthy country is a high tax rate and social programs. I'm all for equality. We should legislate that its unfair that the Cowboys have more fans than us, so we're going to mandate that 40% of their fans become Jaguars fans or the penalty is incarceration and castration. -- Oklahomie (I also support Sharia law)
Quote:No, you clearly are confused.
Libertarianism has nothing to do with abolishing the constitution. If you want to argue about the EPA, DOE, or TSA, then you might trick people into thinking you want to have a logical discussion. Instead you come with this hyperbolic drivel.
My turn. Hey, how about we just tax all corporations and citizens 100%. The key is a high tax rate and social programs to a wealthy government. I'm all for equality. We should legislate that its unfair that the Cowboys have more fans than us, so we're going to mandate that 40% of their fans become Jaguars fans or the penalty is incarceration and castration.
I told you, I'm not confused about anything, I agree with you that liberty and individual responsibility is what's most important.
You need to stop thinking you can blame other people for your own mistakes. If you buy a house and it turns out someone else decides to start dumping poison into the water table then you should either buy bottled water or move.
You don't need the government wasting its time on a tort because you didn't bother to test your food to make sure it wasn't actually just poison and sawdust.
In fact what do we need the courts for at all? We can just save the money, pay no taxes, and just always hire independent arbitrators when we need to have a contract dispute.
Quote:I told you, I'm not confused about anything, I agree with you that liberty and individual responsibility is what's most important.
You need to stop thinking you can blame other people for your own mistakes. If you buy a house and it turns out someone else decides to start dumping poison into the water table then you should either buy bottled water or move.
You don't need the government wasting its time on a tort because you didn't bother to test your food to make sure it wasn't actually just poison and sawdust.
In fact what do we need the courts for at all? We can just save the money, pay no taxes, and just always hire independent arbitrators when we need to have a contract dispute.
After our democratic sharia law is in affect, then we should raise taxes to 120% since women will no longer be working. I feel like the weather is better in Florida than Michigan so they should be mandated to sue Florida for a few billion in reparations. Then Florida should fund a speed rail from our beaches to Lake Michigan. I then propose Santa Claus' name be changed to the Easter Bunny so they can more easily unionize and sue the people for whom they render services.
December 25th will be changed from Christmas to Annual Abortion Day where all women are mandated to have abortions and play kickball with their babies.
Quote:After our democratic sharia law is in affect, then we should raise taxes to 120% since women will no longer be working. I feel like the weather is better in Florida than Michigan so they should be mandated to sue Florida for a few billion in reparations. Then Florida should fund a speed rail from our beaches to Lake Michigan. I then propose Santa Claus' name be changed to the Easter Bunny so they can more easily unionize and sue the people for whom they render services.
Additionally we could get rid of the police since anyone that has anything worth protecting can just hire their own security.
Eliminate all traffic signals and speed limits, anyone who isn't driving a tank can only blame their self when they get in a fatal head on collision through an intersection, they should have stopped and made sure no one was heading their way at 100MPH.
If they couldn't afford a tank they shouldn't have driven through that intersection, but at least they can die knowing they are free.
Quote:Additionally we could get rid of the police since anyone that has anything worth protecting can just hire their own security.
Eliminate all traffic signals and speed limits, anyone who isn't driving a tank can only blame their self when they get in a fatal head on collision through an intersection, they should have stopped and made sure no one was heading their way at 100MPH.
If they couldn't afford a tank they shouldn't have driven through that intersection, but at least they can die knowing they are free.
After Annual Abortion Day we shall order all men to become homosexuals. Pregnancy will only be legal through invitro. Breaking this law will result in abortion - of the mother. Every other election cycle, before they are abolished and the supreme ayatollah comes to power, all prisoners shall be released and the free should take their place - for equality's sake.
Quote:After Annual Abortion Day we shall order all men to become homosexuals. Pregnancy will only be legal through invitro. Breaking this law will result in abortion - of the mother. Every other election cycle, before they are abolished and the supreme ayatollah comes to power, all prisoners shall be released and the free should take their place - for equality's sake.
I hope you're getting a chuckle out of all of this, I know I am.
Quote:I told you, I'm not confusing anything.
We're just arguing degrees of libertarianism. You seem to want the big government protecting you, I'm claiming that you need to take responsibility for your own personal liberty and start testing your own food for poison. It's not big government's responsibility to do something about it afterward because you're just too cheap to have a food taster.
The libertarian talking point response is "the free market will punish any and all businesses using unsafe products or procedures."
Tell that to McDonalds.
Quote:They want to repeal the tax code and abolish the IRS.
I know quite a couple Libertarians and I agree with many of their beliefs, but I never heard any of them mentioning wanting to abolish the IRS. Most Libertarians want to abolish the Federal Reserve Bank more than anything else in the world. And by the way, the US Dollar has lost more than 90% of its original value since the establishment of the Federal Reserve back in 1913. And the FRB's establishment was made under very shadowy circumstances to say the least, back on Jekyll Island, Georgia in 1910.