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Quote:Public infrastructure is paid for with taxes, is it not?  So, without successful private businesses out there generating wealth and tax revenue for the eternally wealth sucking government, those roads and bridges and other infrastructure wouldn't be necessary and they darn sure couldn't be paid for.  Government doesn't create wealth or tax revenue.  It takes it from those who do. 

 

What are you going to use to subsidize your beloved generic "public institution" if the earners decide they've had enough and they quit?
 

I suppose we could go back to the NASA model.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies
Quote:That depends how you look at it. While I don't think things are as bad as the average liberal presents them, I do think an argument can be made that paying your employees as little as possible while amassing every increasing amounts of profits is taking from people. I don't think they should be paid like a skilled worker/professional but I don't think it's out of the question to pay them a living wage. 
 

Are people not free to select where they work?  If they're not making enough money at a job, they are not prevented from seeking employment elsewhere for a higher wage.  I know any time I've wanted to improve my financial situation, I've taken it upon myself to take the initiative to do so, and I haven't relied on the government to make sure I'm making a living wage.  I'm addressing that on my own. 

 

A company will pay low wages to those willing to accept them.  If they want to improve their situation, there's nothing preventing them from doing so.  As objectionable as liberals find it, the purpose of a company is not to create jobs for people.  The primary purpose is to create profits and to generate a good return for investors.  The goal of any company is to minimize costs in order to maximize profits.  Why liberals begrudge companies for making profits is beyond me, but somehow it's considered greedy.  I always enjoy it when libs try to vilify big oil for profiteering.  In the end, the profit margin these companies see on the revenue they generate is about 3% or so.  The government actually benefits more than these private companies do because of the taxes they generate, but you don't hear anyone complaining that the government is profiteering.  They shred Walmart for not paying people $15 an hour, but they ignore the fact that Walmart has created more private sector jobs in 1 year than the federal government has in probably 50 years.

 

Companies aren't obligated to pay anything beyond what is currently the minimum wage.  Someone mentioned the need for a thriving middle class.  Unfortunately, for someone in that category, the tax burden they have to endure creates almost a disincentive.  Those who are living at or near the poverty level get all sorts of tax credits.  In the end, they don't pay a dime in taxes.  Those on the high end of the scale have all sorts of deductions at their disposal, and an income that allows them the ability to minimize their tax burden.  Still, they're paying the lion's share of taxes.  The bottom 50% of taxpayers pay 3% of all income taxes.  The top 10% pay nearly 70%.  The progressive tax structure we have currently punishes those who achieve more at a much higher percentage than it does those who do not. 

 

The middle class has almost disappeared under this administration.  He talks a good game about income equality while the disparity between haves and have nots has grown wider and wider under his watch.  That's a simple fact.  Liberals for whatever reason can't seem to distinguish between lip service and action when it comes to their messiah.  They're told who to hate, and what to say, and they simply act like good little lemmings, chirping the talking points they've been fed.  These are the same people who believe it when they hear idiots like Pelosi saying expanded unemployment benefits is really a stimulus to the economy.  They hear the unemployment number is going down but they don't bother to recognize that most of the jobs being created are part time, or that the real reason behind the shrinking unemployment number has more to do with people giving up looking.  Once they do, they're no longer counted.  With the labor participation rate at it's lowest level in decades, that has more of an impact on the numbers than any fantasy jobs being created. 

 

The New Deal dragged the Great Depression out for 15 years.  The same kind of policies have made this one of the slowest economic recoveries in the history of this nation.
Quote:I suppose we could go back to the NASA model.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies
Where did NASA get the money for everything they did again?  If not for taxpayers, NASA would still be using slingshots to launch rocks. 
Quote:Where did NASA get the money for everything they did again?  If not for taxpayers, NASA would still be using slingshots to launch rocks. 
 

Well if you want to play the recursive money source game then we could just say that all the money came from the government, since we use a fiat currency.

 

Of course I don't think that was the point you wanted to make.

 

Industry and creation can be part of government, the idea that wealth can only come from private industry is incorrect. We can look at NASA inventions, we can look at the DARPA project known as the internet, we can look at all of the beneficial and profitable inventions that come out of public university laboratories.

 

The reason for government's failings in today's age are due to ideology, not capability.
Quote:Well if you want to play the recursive money source game then we could just say that all the money came from the government, since we use a fiat currency.

 

Of course I don't think that was the point you wanted to make.

 

Industry and creation can be part of government, the idea that wealth can only come from private industry is incorrect. We can look at NASA inventions, we can look at the DARPA project known as the internet, we can look at all of the beneficial and profitable inventions that come out of public university laboratories.

 

The reason for government's failings in today's age are due to ideology, not capability.
 

What doesn't government sell to create wealth?

 

Government can only spend what they first take from the private sector, by definition government can not create wealth.
Quote:Are people not free to select where they work?  If they're not making enough money at a job, they are not prevented from seeking employment elsewhere for a higher wage.  I know any time I've wanted to improve my financial situation, I've taken it upon myself to take the initiative to do so, and I haven't relied on the government to make sure I'm making a living wage.  I'm addressing that on my own. 

 

A company will pay low wages to those willing to accept them.  If they want to improve their situation, there's nothing preventing them from doing so.  As objectionable as liberals find it, the purpose of a company is not to create jobs for people.  The primary purpose is to create profits and to generate a good return for investors.  The goal of any company is to minimize costs in order to maximize profits.  Why liberals begrudge companies for making profits is beyond me, but somehow it's considered greedy.  I always enjoy it when libs try to vilify big oil for profiteering.  In the end, the profit margin these companies see on the revenue they generate is about 3% or so.  The government actually benefits more than these private companies do because of the taxes they generate, but you don't hear anyone complaining that the government is profiteering.  They shred Walmart for not paying people $15 an hour, but they ignore the fact that Walmart has created more private sector jobs in 1 year than the federal government has in probably 50 years.

 

Companies aren't obligated to pay anything beyond what is currently the minimum wage.  Someone mentioned the need for a thriving middle class.  Unfortunately, for someone in that category, the tax burden they have to endure creates almost a disincentive.  Those who are living at or near the poverty level get all sorts of tax credits.  In the end, they don't pay a dime in taxes.  Those on the high end of the scale have all sorts of deductions at their disposal, and an income that allows them the ability to minimize their tax burden.  Still, they're paying the lion's share of taxes.  The bottom 50% of taxpayers pay 3% of all income taxes.  The top 10% pay nearly 70%.  The progressive tax structure we have currently punishes those who achieve more at a much higher percentage than it does those who do not. 

 

The middle class has almost disappeared under this administration.  He talks a good game about income equality while the disparity between haves and have nots has grown wider and wider under his watch.  That's a simple fact.  Liberals for whatever reason can't seem to distinguish between lip service and action when it comes to their messiah.  They're told who to hate, and what to say, and they simply act like good little lemmings, chirping the talking points they've been fed.  These are the same people who believe it when they hear idiots like Pelosi saying expanded unemployment benefits is really a stimulus to the economy.  They hear the unemployment number is going down but they don't bother to recognize that most of the jobs being created are part time, or that the real reason behind the shrinking unemployment number has more to do with people giving up looking.  Once they do, they're no longer counted.  With the labor participation rate at it's lowest level in decades, that has more of an impact on the numbers than any fantasy jobs being created. 

 

The New Deal dragged the Great Depression out for 15 years.  The same kind of policies have made this one of the slowest economic recoveries in the history of this nation.
 

This argument ignores the fact that there are many more people needing work than there are non minimum wage jobs. That is the problem. Profits should not be more important then the lives of workers. If all that are available are jobs paying next to nothing do you not take the job? If you have responsibilities you cannot do that you must take that job even if it does not cover family expenses. How do you do justify profits going up exponentially but not wages? Cost of living but not wages? Some large companies are able to deal with this, places like Cosco. Then you have others that squeeze their employees for everything they can to make a few extra bucks. How is that ok to you?

 

Profits AND reasonable wages can coexist. 

Quote:What doesn't government sell to create wealth?

 

Government can only spend what they first take from the private sector, by definition government can not create wealth.
 

Could you clarify your point? It's coming across as just an insubstantial dogmatic talking point.
Quote:Could you clarify your point? It's coming across as just an insubstantial dogmatic talking point.
 

If you can answer the question what doesn't government sell to create wealth the point will be clarified.

 

ALL Income the government has comes from taxation. Taxation does not create wealth it simply transfers wealth.
Quote:If you can answer the question what doesn't government sell to create wealth the point will be clarified.

 

ALL Income the government has comes from taxation. Taxation does not create wealth it simply transfers wealth.
 

The government gets money from taxes because that's the way we've chosen to have our government function.

 

The idea that the government doesn't create wealth is quite wrong, though.
Quote:The government gets money from taxes because that's the way we've chosen to have our government function.

 

The idea that the government doesn't create wealth is quite wrong, though.
I don't know a ton about this topic but I do know the government has done a ton in aiding mega corps and wall street banks to generating a metric ton of wealth thanks to legal bribes. We need an amendment calling for the end of money in politics specifically in campaigning. Two states have called for a convention for this exact matter. I believe the number needed is 38 states? 36 more to go. I don't care if you are right, left, centrist or w/e this should be the focus for everyone. We need out voice back. 
Quote:The government gets money from taxes because that's the way we've chosen to have our government function.

 

The idea that the government doesn't create wealth is quite wrong, though.


The government does not create wealth. It doesn't produce anything. Every dime spent by the government is money taken from producers and redistributed. To say that's not true is about as naive as it gets.
Quote:This argument ignores the fact that there are many more people needing work than there are non minimum wage jobs. That is the problem. Profits should not be more important then the lives of workers. If all that are available are jobs paying next to nothing do you not take the job? If you have responsibilities you cannot do that you must take that job even if it does not cover family expenses. How do you do justify profits going up exponentially but not wages? Cost of living but not wages? Some large companies are able to deal with this, places like Cosco. Then you have others that squeeze their employees for everything they can to make a few extra bucks. How is that ok to you?

 

Profits AND reasonable wages can coexist.


Nobody is forced to work for any company. If they're not getting paid what they feel they deserve, employees can always leave for other opportunities. It's not the responsibility of any private corporation to create jobs and pay anything more than they've established as an acceptable rate.


For all the guff a company like Walmart gets for their pay rates, there sure are a lot of people lining up to get jobs there.


Those fast food workers who have been protesting for double the minimum wage? Will they be better off when companies like McDonald's replace them with robots? Because that's coming.


Private corporations have 2 obligations. First, to maximize profits. Second, to provide dividends to the people investing in them.


How is that okay with me? Because I've worked extremely hard to build a career that compensates me quite nicely. I didn't ask for or receive a bit of aid or assistance in getting to where I am in life. When I felt I needed to improve my situation, I took the initiative and lifted myself up. I've worked for and with those evil companies you think are greedy, and I've seen the level of investment they make not only in their infrastructure but also their employees. Anyone who is willing to work hard and is reliable can make their way up through the ranks in any operation even at places like Walmart or Publix or a host of other companies that create entry level jobs.
Quote:Nobody is forced to work for any company. If they're not getting paid what they feel they deserve, employees can always leave for other opportunities. It's not the responsibility of any private corporation to create jobs and pay anything more than they've established as an acceptable rate.


For all the guff a company like Walmart gets for their pay rates, there sure are a lot of people lining up to get jobs there.


Those fast food workers who have been protesting for double the minimum wage? Will they be better off when companies like McDonald's replace them with robots? Because that's coming.


Private corporations have 2 obligations. First, to maximize profits. Second, to provide dividends to the people investing in them.


How is that okay with me? Because I've worked extremely hard to build a career that compensates me quite nicely. I didn't ask for or receive a bit of aid or assistance in getting to where I am in life. When I felt I needed to improve my situation, I took the initiative and lifted myself up. I've worked for and with those evil companies you think are greedy, and I've seen the level of investment they make not only in their infrastructure but also their employees. Anyone who is willing to work hard and is reliable can make their way up through the ranks in any operation even at places like Walmart or Publix or a host of other companies that create entry level jobs.
You are still ignoring the the point that there are vastly more people in the work force than there are well paying jobs available to good old boot strap lifting people. You, I think, are just assuming people are lazy and ignoring that there are not enough jobs that pay living wages to accommodate every citizen that wants to try for better jobs. That is the point. 

 

Sure there are lazy people. There are lazy people that landed in great paying careers due to who they were born to or just dumb luck. I am not trying to take anything away from these people nor the people that worked hard for what they got. What I do think is people trying to work should be able to live and take care of their responsibilities without having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. I seriously do not understand how anyone can argue against this. 
Quote:You are still ignoring the the point that there are vastly more people in the work force than there are well paying jobs available to good old boot strap lifting people. You, I think, are just assuming people are lazy and ignoring that there are not enough jobs that pay living wages to accommodate every citizen that wants to try for better jobs. That is the point.


Sure there are lazy people. There are lazy people that landed in great paying careers due to who they were born to or just dumb luck. I am not trying to take anything away from these people nor the people that worked hard for what they got. What I do think is people trying to work should be able to live and take care of their responsibilities without having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. I seriously do not understand how anyone can argue against this.


$8.00/hr is enough to support yourself. One major problem is people making minimum or near minimum on part time hours and having a level of expectation that 20 hours per week should be enough. Full time at 8 per hour is about $15,000 a year after taxes. That's enough to support yourself without government assistance. If you get roommates, you can support a child or two with it, granted you'll have to shop at Good Will and pinch pennies, but that's what poor families have always had to do. If it's not quite enough, get another job. Nobody is stopping poor people from working more than 40 hours per week.


One problem is that companies are increasingly using part time employees today. ACA is just going to exasperate that problem.
Quote:This argument ignores the fact that there are many more people needing work than there are non minimum wage jobs. That is the problem. Profits should not be more important then the lives of workers. If all that are available are jobs paying next to nothing do you not take the job? If you have responsibilities you cannot do that you must take that job even if it does not cover family expenses. How do you do justify profits going up exponentially but not wages? Cost of living but not wages? Some large companies are able to deal with this, places like Cosco. Then you have others that squeeze their employees for everything they can to make a few extra bucks. How is that ok to you?

 

Profits AND reasonable wages can coexist. 
 

You're correct the problem is there are not enough quality jobs in the market for the amount of people that need work. Let's look at why:

 

Starting in 1913 you had the introduction of the income tax, where employers where forced by government to take money from employee's and than also match that money confiscated from employee's to pay government. So essentially if I as an employer today, want to pay you as an employee $700 a week, it will cost me as an employer $800 a week. You'll as an employee only take home about $600 a week. That's an extra $200 a week you'll never see as an employee.

 

In 1938 government passed legislation requiring employers to pay time and half after an employee reaches 40 hours, that's why today you'll be hard pressed to find anyone willing to let you work more than 40 hours. Also a set minimum wage was established creating an artificial floor for wages. If I as an employer previously would have paid someone to do a remedial task, I now would have to wage if it was worth the additional cost of paying someone else to do that task, doing it myself, or just subbing out the job. You can see how both of these would create a disincentive to create jobs.

 

Enter into the mid 90's and you now have technology replacing remedial jobs by the thousands, manufacturing, telecommunications, packing and shipping, and many retail outlets now have an option of using technology to replace human workers. In countries with heavy regulation you already have automated workers taking orders at fast food restaurants, would you like fries with that is a pretty simple task to use robots for. 

 

Today it's a GLOBAL market place, regardless if we like it or not, the American worker is competing with workers across the globe for jobs. Naturally heavy regulation and high taxes will push what few manufacturing jobs are left over seas only  reducing the opportunity for steady work. You already have most of the telecommunication jobs over sea's and if you've been to any retailer when was the last time you didn't see the "self checkout lane"?

 

Companies especially when they get big will always look to maximize profits, there's nothing legislatively you can do the effectively change this. The only thing that CAN be done is to create an atmosphere more encouraging to small business. The less people are dependent on Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and Gap for employment the better off the economy will be. These minimum wage jobs where not created to support an individual much less a family, they where created for kids coming out of high school to get experience, or retired individuals to generate extra income. The problem is we have pushed so many jobs over sea's or created an atmosphere that employers see no benefit in creating that job we've limited the work available to people.

 

Add all of that the Affordable Care Act and you've seen nothing yet. Once all these "passes" are over with and the elections are done, business will be forced to either take on enormous cost or reduce payroll, which do you think they will chose? 

My general thoughts around income inequality are that too much of it is bad, and too little of it is bad. There has to be a certain amount of inequality in terms of income so that there is incentive to climb the ladder through hard work and innovation. Too much of it though, and that climb becomes so steep that it's discouraging if not nearly impossible. As far as taxes are concerned, the biggest issue to me is that its a convoluted system that's a mess to navigate. Follow the advice of the Navy and KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Quote:Those fast food workers who have been protesting for double the minimum wage? Will they be better off when companies like McDonald's replace them with robots? Because that's coming.
 

That's going to happen with or without minimum wage laws.  At which point there'll be no jobs left for your unskilled worker (as well as workers who are waiting to get jobs where they're qualified), and nobody left to buy the products they sell.


Of course they aren't the only ones that will be replaced.  Pharmacists even some lawyers.  

Quote:You are still ignoring the the point that there are vastly more people in the work force than there are well paying jobs available to good old boot strap lifting people. You, I think, are just assuming people are lazy and ignoring that there are not enough jobs that pay living wages to accommodate every citizen that wants to try for better jobs. That is the point. 

 

Sure there are lazy people. There are lazy people that landed in great paying careers due to who they were born to or just dumb luck. I am not trying to take anything away from these people nor the people that worked hard for what they got. What I do think is people trying to work should be able to live and take care of their responsibilities without having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. I seriously do not understand how anyone can argue against this. 
And you are overestimating how many people rely on minimum wage to support a family.  Look the numbers up. 

 

You're making incorrect assumptions about me in order to make your case.  Nowhere have I said anyone is lazy.

 

There aren't enough good paying jobs because the economy is sputtering on the verge of another recession.  When the economy was going strong, there were plenty of opportunities for people to advance their situation.  Because the current policies of bigger, more encroaching government have put a significant drag on this economy, good paying jobs are more difficult to find.  However, they are not impossible to find for those who are more flexible. 

 

There are absolutely some lazy people, but I'm taking into consideration that most people want to work and to be able to sustain themselves.  However, for those who live below the poverty level, there are programs far and wide to assist them in maintaining a respectable living situation with subsidized housing, transportation, communication, and food.  The poor in our society today don't know the true meaning of "poor" or "poverty" in this country.  There are those who recognize that they're better off taking what the government is willing to give them over trying to get a leg up for themselves. 

 

Those who are willing to work hard and do whatever is necessary to lift themselves up usually do succeed, even if they have to work 3 jobs to do it.  Companies are not obligated to pay them more than they do just so they can cut out an extra job.  If people truly want to improve their situation, they can do so without forcing companies to deviate from what they're doing. 

 

The market can and should determine what someone is going to be paid.  In reality, the best thing that could happen if you want to get people back to work is to do away with the minimum wage all together.  It would allow companies to create more jobs, and I'll guarantee the majority would be paid at rates higher than the currently mandated levels.  Creating more jobs helps lift the economy.  As the economy improves, those lower income earners will have more opportunity to climb.  If you don't think the market should be the vehicle used to set wages, take a look at what's happening in North Dakota with jobs up there thanks to the oil boom they're enjoying.  Even entry level jobs are paying significantly more than minimum wage because there's a demand.  Their state economy is booming. 

A lot of people are taking minimum wage jobs because they aren't able to get the jobs they're qualified for.  I know law school graduates who've been working retail because there aren't any jobs available for them.  The fact is, in today's society it's not what you know.  It's who you know.  And of course those people are unfortunate to have heavy college loans to pay off too.

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