Quote:Are you saying that with an MBA you can't manage to earn more than minimum wage? Seriously let's try and stay practical here. How many MBA graduates are really working for minimum wage?
Everyone can't be a manager. Not everyone can afford a university education. Not everyone is intellectually qualified to accomplish an MBA.
Seriously, you understand that higher paying jobs are higher paying because they're (theoretically) more difficult to find someone qualified to fill, right?
Everyone in Society can't be the CEO, some people have to be the Janitors. Why should they get paid a poverty wage?
Quote:This is a rather unverified sentiment.
Here in the USA the poor are still richer than in other poor countries because the poor here started out richer due to a structure of programs and laws stemming from Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and LBJ.
The elevated status of America's poor has nothing to do with the free market and everything to do with what came before. As things continue along the current course and infrastructure continues to crumble and social welfare programs are continually degraded the living standards of the poor will continue to degrade relative to third world nations.
Of course if you compared what it's like to be in poverty in the USA and what it's like to be poor in the better European countries you'd find that America's standards are already lower than the European world's poor.
Are you on my side? You just proved my point completely.
America amassed a good amount of wealth prior to Teddy, FDR, and LBJ when they were that world's leading lender, backed by the gold standard. Then, like every capitalist system that converts to socialism, social programs suddenly elevate the poor to a standard of living almost middle class. And now you are beginning to see how the poor have stagnated. Outside of the Great Depression, the poor had a higher standard of living than the rest of the world and it was on a continual, slow, steady incline. Social programs are always a shot in the arm, but never a cure.
Quote:Because it's the market that decides what an employee is worth not your central controlling government. would you support a minimum wage of say $40.00 an hour?
And that' s my problem with the idea of deregulating and letting the market decide things. The market will not regulate itself. People in poverty need money and will accept jobs they can get living wages from if that's that available. And companies will continue to not offer jobs with living wages because there is no reason for them not to.
Quote:
Of course if you compared what it's like to be in poverty in the USA and what it's like to be poor in the better European countries you'd find that America's standards are already lower than the European world's poor.
Completely false. Sweden is the only one with a higher standard than the United States.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/...-humanity/
You are somewhat correct in one assessment, though. America's poor will see a steady decline in future years if nothing is changed. The same will be true for the rest of the EU with massive social programs. There will be some capitalist EU countries who pass us by because they haven't succumb to the honey trap that is social programs.
Quote:Everyone can't be a manager. Not everyone can afford a university education. Not everyone is intellectually qualified to accomplish an MBA.
Seriously, you understand that higher paying jobs are higher paying because they're (theoretically) more difficult to find someone qualified to fill, right?
Everyone in Society can't be the CEO, some people have to be the Janitors. Why should they get paid a poverty wage?
http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salary.html
According to this Janitors at the low end make 19,000 all the way up to 34,000 not a great wage but it's more than the minimum wage. The minimum wage is $7.57 an hour that's a 40 hour work week of $15,000 a year.
So your minimum wage hike would actually make that money he's earning over minimum wage less valuable, he would have a smaller purchasing power with the money has earned likely driving him onto MORE social assistance and having the opposite affect you claim a minimum wage hike would have.
Quote:And that' s my problem with the idea of deregulating and letting the market decide things. The market will not regulate itself. People in poverty need money and will accept jobs they can get living wages from if that's that available. And companies will continue to not offer jobs with living wages because there is no reason for them not to.
The market is neither good nor bad, right or left, it is simply supply and demand.
Quote:Are you on my side? You just proved my point completely.
America amassed a good amount of wealth prior to Teddy, FDR, and LBJ when they were that world's leading lender, backed by the gold standard. Then, like every capitalist system that converts to socialism, social programs suddenly elevate the poor to a standard of living almost middle class. And now you are beginning to see how the poor have stagnated. Outside of the Great Depression, the poor had a higher standard of living than the rest of the world and it was on a continual, slow, steady incline. Social programs are always a shot in the arm, but never a cure.
Are you kidding?
First 80 years of the nation the poor were LITERALLY SLAVES.
Slavery in the first 80 years.
After that came the Gilded Age which brought us such boons to the working class as company scrip and work camps.
Then came Teddy Roosevelt and started trying to establish a system of labor laws to help people.
A few years later a bunch of women died in a factory fire in NYC, perhaps you've heard of it?
Worker laws started improving, then we got the 1920's which mirrored GWB's years in a lot of ways. CUT TAXES and let the markets go nuts, leading directly to the great depression and the greatest leader this nation has ever had, FDR.
He terrified the right wing. He was ELECTED AS PRESIDENT FOUR TIMES!!!!
It's thanks to him that we have such luxuries as 30 year fixed rate mortgages.
It was during the ensuing 40 years from the middle of FDR's time in office until Reagan came along that the poor and middle class in this country pulled themselves up to the extent they did thanks to social programs and inexpensive education.
Quote:Completely false. Sweden is the only one with a higher standard than the United States.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/...-humanity/
You are somewhat correct in one assessment, though. America's poor will see a steady decline in future years if nothing is changed. The same will be true for the rest of the EU with massive social programs. There will be some capitalist EU countries who pass us by because they haven't succumb to the honey trap that is social programs.
It's not social programs that are the problem, it's the economic leak of free trade that's the problem. Stop letting countries with no worker rights or environmental regulations compete with domestic workers that want to make a living wage and not have a polluted environment and things start working again.
Quote:http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salary.html
According to this Janitors at the low end make 19,000 all the way up to 34,000 not a great wage but it's more than the minimum wage. The minimum wage is $7.57 an hour that's a 40 hour work week of $15,000 a year.
So your minimum wage hike would actually make that money he's earning over minimum wage less valuable, he would have a smaller purchasing power with the money has earned likely driving him onto MORE social assistance and having the opposite affect you claim a minimum wage hike would have.
If the minimum wage is pegged to the poverty line then by definition he wouldn't be driven to social welfare, that's the point of raising the minimum wage.
Quote:If the minimum wage is pegged to the poverty line then by definition he wouldn't be driven to social welfare, that's the point of raising the minimum wage.
So if the burger flipper now get's 19,000 a year instead of 15,000 a year and the Janitor gets 24,000 a year instead of 19,000 a year, the owner of the restaurant paying both their wages is paying another 10,000 in wages guess who's going to pay for that. That's called inflation then all the sudden that 19,000 a year is only as good as the 15,000 a year was a few years ago. Now you've raised the cost of living for EVERYONE and fixed nothing, brilliant.
Quote:Are you kidding?
First 80 years of the nation the poor were LITERALLY SLAVES.
Slavery in the first 80 years.
After that came the Gilded Age which brought us such boons to the working class as company scrip and work camps.
Then came Teddy Roosevelt and started trying to establish a system of labor laws to help people.
A few years later a bunch of women died in a factory fire in NYC, perhaps you've heard of it?
Worker laws started improving, then we got the 1920's which mirrored GWB's years in a lot of ways. CUT TAXES and let the markets go nuts, leading directly to the great depression and the greatest leader this nation has ever had, FDR.
He terrified the right wing. He was ELECTED AS PRESIDENT FOUR TIMES!!!!
It's thanks to him that we have such luxuries as 30 year fixed rate mortgages.
It was during the ensuing 40 years from the middle of FDR's time in office until Reagan came along that the poor and middle class in this country pulled themselves up to the extent they did thanks to social programs and inexpensive education.
Really? You know I'm not talking about slaves and newly freed slaves. That's an insult on intelligence.
FDR was elected 4 times because he kept giving people things. Point blank. Real leadership is knowing when to say 'no.' I could win an election if I promised to increase the minimum wage to $15/hr, granted citizenship to all illegals, and promised massive reparations to all blacks.
Quote:Completely false. Sweden is the only one with a higher standard than the United States.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/...-humanity/
You are somewhat correct in one assessment, though. America's poor will see a steady decline in future years if nothing is changed. The same will be true for the rest of the EU with massive social programs. There will be some capitalist EU countries who pass us by because they haven't succumb to the honey trap that is social programs.
It depends on what's being measured and how its weighted.
http://www.economist.com/news/21566430-w...ttery-life
Quote:Really? You know I'm not talking about slaves and newly freed slaves. That's an insult on intelligence.
FDR was elected 4 times because he kept giving people things. Point blank. Real leadership is knowing when to say 'no.' I could win an election if I promised to increase the minimum wage to $15/hr, granted citizenship to all illegals, and promised massive reparations to all blacks.
Really? You think THAT would get you elected?
I'm really laughing right now.
Quote:So if the burger flipper now get's 19,000 a year instead of 15,000 a year and the Janitor gets 24,000 a year instead of 19,000 a year, the owner of the restaurant paying both their wages is paying another 10,000 in wages guess who's going to pay for that. That's called inflation then all the sudden that 19,000 a year is only as good as the 15,000 a year was a few years ago. Now you've raised the cost of living for EVERYONE and fixed nothing, brilliant.
How much does your favorite fast food meal cost right now?
Quote:It's not social programs that are the problem, it's the economic leak of free trade that's the problem. Stop letting countries with no worker rights or environmental regulations compete with domestic workers that want to make a living wage and not have a polluted environment and things start working again.
We agree there.
So you are all for opening up the oil wells in the United States so we stop letting the countries with no worker rights, environmental regulations and cheap labor out compete American workers? We have witnessed the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world from the United States to oil producing countries and China.
Quote:So if the burger flipper now get's 19,000 a year instead of 15,000 a year and the Janitor gets 24,000 a year instead of 19,000 a year, the owner of the restaurant paying both their wages is paying another 10,000 in wages guess who's going to pay for that. That's called inflation then all the sudden that 19,000 a year is only as good as the 15,000 a year was a few years ago. Now you've raised the cost of living for EVERYONE and fixed nothing, brilliant.
That's what I was just saying to him. It's spinning your wheels unless you are willing to put governmental controls on profit margins.
Quote:How much does your favorite fast food meal cost right now?
It's not limited to restaurants, that's one example when everything goes up you have inflation. Look at the price of Gas, Food, Medicine, Entertainment, Transportation, it's all directly related.
Quote:We agree there.
So you are all for opening up the oil wells in the United States so we stop letting the countries with no worker rights, environmental regulations and cheap labor out compete American workers? We have witnessed the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world from the United States to oil producing countries and China.
Nope, forget about oil. Invest in renewables and bio diesel.
Make the diesel out of industrial hemp and convert the rest of vehicles over to hydrogen which can be generated with excess solar energy.
First order of business, though, is every roof covered in solar panels.
Quote:It's not limited to restaurants, that's one example when everything goes up you have inflation. Look at the price of Gas, Food, Medicine, Entertainment, Transportation, it's all directly related.
You think the marginal cost of minimum wage workers has a significant bearing on the price of gas, entertainment, or transportation?
Quote:Really? You think THAT would get you elected?
I'm really laughing right now.
You don't think a candidate would win the majority black, latino, poor, and progressive vote with that platform?