Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:That's good, however, to be clear, you won't find reprieve from the liberty of money equaling speech in the arms of the libertarians, either.

You say that knowing nothing of the candidate. Blanket statements and such...

Quote:If you don't think entitlements aren't easily and rampantly abused then you're delusional. Odb showed how easy it was years ago on mtv. I've witnessed it many times over. If I lacked integrity and principle, I could get $6000-$10,000 in government funds right now by telling a little white lie that could never be disproved.

 

WOW, $10,000, you say?

 

AKA, pocket change for making a bet for the Mitt Romneys of the world.

So it's ok to steal $10,000 from the government because it's only pocket change to Mitt Romney?

Quote:So it's ok to steal $10,000 from the government because it's only pocket change to Mitt Romney?

 

Who said it's okay? I just recognize that it's better to help people even if there's a possibility of fraud (which can later be punished) than to not help people.

 

Do you have a car? Do you think it would be okay if people could come along and let the air out of your tires then justify it by saying it's too easy to speed and therefore we can't let people drive?

 

The fact of the matter is the $10,000 issue is best addressed with a labor and regulatory environment that enfranchises everyone in society such that they feel they have enough to lose that such petty fraud doesn't even seem worth the risk.

Quote:Who said it's okay? I just recognize that it's better to help people even if there's a possibility of fraud (which can later be punished) than to not help people.


Do you have a car? Do you think it would be okay if people could come along and let the air out of your tires then justify it by saying it's too easy to speed and therefore we can't let people drive?


The fact of the matter is the $10,000 issue is best addressed with a labor and regulatory environment that enfranchises everyone in society such that they feel they have enough to lose that such petty fraud doesn't even seem worth the risk.

Your analogy is completely apples and oranges. A better one would be letting a swarm of bees sting you because one bee sting at a time isn't so bad.


I don't support getting rid of welfare completely, but it should be reserved for people who truly are unable to work - not for people who are forced to eat ramen noodles and go without a phone.

Quote:Your analogy is completely apples and oranges. A better one would be letting a swarm of bees sting you because one bee sting at a time isn't so bad.


I don't support getting rid of welfare completely, but it should be reserved for people who truly are unable to work - not for people who are forced to eat ramen noodles and go without a phone.

 

Sorry, I fundamentally disagree.

 

I think things like university education should be free for anyone that can keep up a 2.0GPA and living expenses should be paid, even if someone wants to have 10 degrees and literally spends their entire life in academia.

 

I also think welfare should be available for anyone who needs it and its focus should be getting people educated or trained for specific work.


For those who simply cannot function in working conditions we have Social Security, and I don't have a problem with that being used, either.

 

As for my analogy, it is quite apt, since most people fundamentally follow the rules of the road when they drive, just like most people in government assistance simply need it.

 

Your analogy is telling, though. You perceive those who need help as injuring you somehow, and it's just not the case to any significant extent.

Quote:Having the ability to make a phone call is what you call comfort?

 

Cash assistance doesn't come from the government on some unlimited basis, and unemployment benefits require prior employment, not to mention they aren't unlimited.

 

It's an ongoing problem that there's a perception that poor people have it too easy. Unless your idea is we should be grinding them and their children up to make soylent green then they definitely don't have it good or easy.

 

Everything about society is designed to punish and humiliate people for being poor (remember Rick Scott's welfare drug testing?), while what is needed is a level of respect for every person and a system that truly does try to give people a chance at a leg up.

 

Sure, when did the ability to make a phone call become the governments responsibility or the tax payers duty to fund? How is welfare drug testing humiliating the poor? Almost every employer drug test employee's is that humiliation?

Quote:Sorry, I fundamentally disagree.

 

I think things like university education should be free for anyone that can keep up a 2.0GPA and living expenses should be paid, even if someone wants to have 10 degrees and literally spends their entire life in academia.

 

I also think welfare should be available for anyone who needs it and its focus should be getting people educated or trained for specific work.

For those who simply cannot function in working conditions we have Social Security, and I don't have a problem with that being used, either.

 

As for my analogy, it is quite apt, since most people fundamentally follow the rules of the road when they drive, just like most people in government assistance simply need it.

 

Your analogy is telling, though. You perceive those who need help as injuring you somehow, and it's just not the case to any significant extent.

 

You like that free word, it's not free someone's paying that bill. In your world that would be everyone working is paying for the scholar to live off the public dollar and earn 10 degrees. Why would anyone work if that's the case?

Quote:Sure, when did the ability to make a phone call become the governments responsibility or the tax payers duty to fund? How is welfare drug testing humiliating the poor? Almost every employer drug test employee's is that humiliation?

 

Quote:You like that free word, it's not free someone's paying that bill. In your world that would be everyone working is paying for the scholar to live off the public dollar and earn 10 degrees. Why would anyone work if that's the case?

 

Okay, so you take away poor people's phone. How does that help them get out of poverty, again?

 

Why would anyone work? Because going through college is work, and living expenses isn't meant as "they get party money". If someone really does think that learning is their calling then I don't care, that's fine, they should be able to live in their student apartment and take college courses for their whole life.

 

As for the rest, it wouldn't be free to society, but an educated populace creates a net benefit for society, so from the perspective of actual cost versus benefit, making education "free" for everyone would actually make it "free" for society, or even less than "free".

Quote:Sorry, I fundamentally disagree.


I think things like university education should be free for anyone that can keep up a 2.0GPA and living expenses should be paid, even if someone wants to have 10 degrees and literally spends their entire life in academia.


I also think welfare should be available for anyone who needs it and its focus should be getting people educated or trained for specific work.

For those who simply cannot function in working conditions we have Social Security, and I don't have a problem with that being used, either.


As for my analogy, it is quite apt, since most people fundamentally follow the rules of the road when they drive, just like most people in government assistance simply need it.


Your analogy is telling, though. You perceive those who need help as injuring you somehow, and it's just not the case to any significant extent.

What roads do you drive on where most drivers don't speed?

Quote:What roads do you drive on where most drivers don't speed?

 

Well I'm not out there with a radar gun, but speedometers aren't all calibrated the same. Sure some people might drive a little faster or slower than me, but I try to think about things with a margin of error. Still I do see one or two people on a daily basis that seem to be in a real hurry and they're speeding and swerving between lanes and creating dangerous conditions.

 

I don't see them as a cause for letting the air out of everyone's tires.

Quote:Okay, so you take away poor people's phone. How does that help them get out of poverty, again?

 

Why would anyone work? Because going through college is work, and living expenses isn't meant as "they get party money". If someone really does think that learning is their calling then I don't care, that's fine, they should be able to live in their student apartment and take college courses for their whole life.

 

As for the rest, it wouldn't be free to society, but an educated populace creates a net benefit for society, so from the perspective of actual cost versus benefit, making education "free" for everyone would actually make it "free" for society, or even less than "free".

 

I didn't say take away their phones, I asked when did making sure they have phones become society's responsibility?

 

So you really believe that if people are given two options, go to school and keep a C average and your cost of living + cost of schooling are paid for OR go to work and pay for your own cost of living most would chose to work? I'm really starting to wonder if you're still in school?

Quote:I didn't say take away their phones, I asked when did making sure they have phones become society's responsibility?

 

So you really believe that if people are given two options, go to school and keep a C average and your cost of living + cost of schooling are paid for OR go to work and pay for your own cost of living most would chose to work? I'm really starting to wonder if you're still in school?

 

You start to run out of the easy classes pretty quick if you're spending your whole life taking 4-5 classes a semester. Of course like I said, if someone really just wants to go to school and that's all they want then I don't have a problem with it as long as they're taking it seriously.

 

Society's responsibility is in trying to help people function within society in such a way that they can be productive in society. How does taking away their phone help them get a job, exactly?

Quote:You start to run out of the easy classes pretty quick if you're spending your whole life taking 4-5 classes a semester. Of course like I said, if someone really just wants to go to school and that's all they want then I don't have a problem with it as long as they're taking it seriously.

 

Society's responsibility is in trying to help people function within society in such a way that they can be productive in society. How does taking away their phone help them get a job, exactly?

 

should we provide everyone with computers and internet access as well? how about gas for their vehicles so they can get to work, because taking away their gas wouldn't make them productive. Don't forget we need to make sure they have uniforms for work, that can be expensive, and some jobs require close toed shoes, what if they don't have shoes, I guess we should pay for that as well.

 

So let's review, a fair and just society should make sure the poor have phones, computers, internet access, transportation, fuel for that transportation, clothing, shoes (depending on the type of work), food, and medical coverage. Did I miss anything?

Quote:I didn't say take away their phones, I asked when did making sure they have phones become society's responsibility?

 

So you really believe that if people are given two options, go to school and keep a C average and your cost of living + cost of schooling are paid for OR go to work and pay for your own cost of living most would chose to work? I'm really starting to wonder if you're still in school?

 

I'm starting to wonder if you ever went.

Quote:I'm starting to wonder if you ever went.

 

elaborate please.

Quote:You start to run out of the easy classes pretty quick if you're spending your whole life taking 4-5 classes a semester. Of course like I said, if someone really just wants to go to school and that's all they want then I don't have a problem with it as long as they're taking it seriously.

 

Society's responsibility is in trying to help people function within society in such a way that they can be productive in society. How does taking away their phone help them get a job, exactly?

 

Not really. There are hundreds of community colleges out there with hundreds of 100, or lower, level classes. You could be a full time student (12 credits) for several lifetimes if you chose, and spend those lifetimes contributing absolutely nothing to society.

Quote:should we provide everyone with computers and internet access as well? how about gas for their vehicles so they can get to work, because taking away their gas wouldn't make them productive. Don't forget we need to make sure they have uniforms for work, that can be expensive, and some jobs require close toed shoes, what if they don't have shoes, I guess we should pay for that as well.

 

So let's review, a fair and just society should make sure the poor have phones, computers, internet access, transportation, fuel for that transportation, clothing, shoes (depending on the type of work), food, and medical coverage. Did I miss anything?

 

Yes, yes, no, no, yes.

 

We have public transportation and your job should provide for your uniform if they require one. As for computers and internet access, I think that kind of thing should be provided for people (it doesn't need to be fancy, but everyone having access to the internet is crucial in today's society) and if someone needs shoes that should be provided along with clothing by the social welfare program.

Quote:elaborate please.

 

I've said it several times. The idea of utopia being achievable is ridiculous so when I keep seeing you use the phrase "true free market" it makes me face palm. A "true free market" is impossible and unsustainable, so when it is used to make a point it really takes away credit from the person believing it is possible.

Quote:Not really. There are hundreds of community colleges out there with hundreds of 100, or lower, level classes. You could be a full time student (12 credits) for several lifetimes if you chose, and spend those lifetimes contributing absolutely nothing to society.

 

You can think of it as providing nothing, I look at it as staying productive and out of trouble.