Quote:Ah the prebate, I figured you'd bring that bizarre invention in. It helps to weigh the brunt onto the middle class.
In any case your idea that income tax is a disincentive for higher wages show that you have no idea how our progressive marginal income tax system even works. The idea that anyone would be motivated to not make money because of the marginal tax rates on some portion of their higher earnings creates a disincentive is absolute absurdity.
If it's any comfort I've met a lot of people who are utterly confused with the current tax system even without considering the more complex facets of it.
I left this single passage in the quote because it so blithely illustrates your complete lack of understanding about how marginal propensity to spend affects the economy and why the country is in its current economic condition.
Your right people enjoy paying more in taxes as they earn more, that's not a disincentive at all.
Quote:Your right people enjoy paying more in taxes as they earn more, that's not a disincentive at all.
The idea that you'll pay a few percent more
only on the next $10,000 you make than the last $10,000 you made will somehow disincentive you from going ahead and accepting the rest of those thousands of extra dollars shows the ridiculousness of your position.
You're making ideological arguments that don't hold in practice.
The real question is earnings against quality of life improvement, taxation is only of extremely marginal consideration for whether anyone chooses to work more hours.
Quote:The idea that you'll pay a few percent more only on the next $10,000 you make than the last $10,000 you made will somehow disincentive you from going ahead and accepting the rest of those thousands of extra dollars shows the ridiculousness of your position.
You're making ideological arguments that don't hold in practice.
The real question is earnings against quality of life improvement, taxation is only of extremely marginal consideration for whether anyone chooses to work more hours.
That last little disclaimer in your response is the point. The only way an individual is going to get out of poverty is by working more hours. Very few salary individuals are below or near the poverty line it's the hourly worker that struggles at the poverty line.
The fact that as they TRY to work more hours to get out of poverty they are taxed MORE and then penalized by receiving LESS assistance is WHY a production tax keeps the poor in poverty.
WHat I like about Eric's consumption tax plan is that the illegal immigrants can't escape it like they can with working under the table.
Thats probably why the dem's don't like the plan.....it actually would benefit America.
Quote:That last little declaimer in your response is the point. The only way an individual is going to get out of poverty is by working more hours. Very few salary individuals are below or near the poverty line it's the hourly worker that struggles at the poverty line.
The fact that as they TRY to work more hours to get out of poverty they are taxed MORE and then penalized by receiving LESS assistance is WHY a production tax keeps the poor in poverty.
Congratulations on completely misunderstanding the problems faced by the poor.
The main problem is in inadequate social welfare programs and structure and a wage floor that's set WAAAAY too low.
The first order of business would be adjusting the minimum wage floor to be indexed to the poverty level. No one should ever work a full time job and make an income below the poverty level.
The next order of business is to disincentive business from using part time workers by setting the part time wage higher than the full time wage and requiring that part time workers receive the same benefits as full time workers.
After that you also need to get out of the free trade agreements the country is in to keep businesses from trying to create downward pressure on wages due to outsourcing.
Essentially all the problems the country has are actually due to too little pressure on business to operate in a way that actually benefits the country.
Tax rates are the last thing on anyone's mind when they're working more hours. That you continue to think it's at all relevant to anyone except for those who are already making enough money that more of it wouldn't make a difference in their quality of life shows how clueless you are to what's actually going on in the world and nation.
Quote:
The first order of business would be adjusting the minimum wage floor to be indexed to the poverty level. No one should ever work a full time job and make an income below the poverty level.
While I absolutely agree with you/ this.....all that would probably happen would be less jobs....as fallout from that being implemented.
Quote:While I absolutely agree with you/ this.....all that would proabably happen would be less jobs....as fallout from that being implemented.
Incorrect. There has never been a study that's conclusively shown that raising the minimum wage has any impact on jobs at all.
Quote:Congratulations on completely misunderstanding the problems faced by the poor.
The main problem is in inadequate social welfare programs and structure and a wage floor that's set WAAAAY too low.
The first order of business would be adjusting the minimum wage floor to be indexed to the poverty level. No one should ever work a full time job and make an income below the poverty level.
The next order of business is to disincentive business from using part time workers by setting the part time wage higher than the full time wage and requiring that part time workers receive the same benefits as full time workers.
After that you also need to get out of the free trade agreements the country is in to keep businesses from trying to create downward pressure on wages due to outsourcing.
Essentially all the problems the country has are actually due to too little pressure on business to operate in a way that actually benefits the country.
Tax rates are the last thing on anyone's mind when they're working more hours. That you continue to think it's at all relevant to anyone except for those who are already making enough money that more of it wouldn't make a difference in their quality of life shows how clueless you are to what's actually going on in the world and nation.
.gif "Laughing")
oh man this is rich.
You've got to be the biggest proponent of government interference I've met yet, it's almost scary if it wasn't funny. You want to give legislative authority to dictate wages and you think that's going to help create work for the poor?
You say the poor don't notice the increase in taxes as they earn more, that's baloney when they get their checks they notice it.
Quote: oh man this is rich.
You've got to be the biggest proponent of government interference I've met yet, it's almost scary if it wasn't funny. You want to give legislative authority to dictate wages and you think that's going to help create work for the poor?
You say the poor don't notice the increase in taxes as they earn more, that's baloney when they get their checks they notice it.
When the choice for business is "spend that money on wages and building up your business" or "pay 35% of your corporate income in taxes and we'll pay the money out to those people you could have hired in social welfare" then suddenly hiring more people sounds pretty good to business.
The problem is the current political spectrum refuses to create that incentive to hire.
Quote:While I absolutely agree with you/ this.....all that would proabably happen would be less jobs....as fallout from that being implemented.
What would more likely happen is the cost would be built into the products and services sold.
It's like waiting staff. A good friend of mine is a waitress at a restaurant. She makes $2.15/hour + tips. She relies on people being generous to supplement her wages. Of course some people don't tip, and others tip poorly. But they don't realize if the restaurant had to pay her $7.15/hour that:
A. She probably wouldn't work there to start with, because that's not enough money to do a job like waiting tables (which can be backbreaking work, and dealing with crappy customers. She'd much rather get a job at a grocery store or something like that if she were paid that much)
B. The cost would be built into the food.
Quote:When the choice for business is "spend that money on wages and building up your business" or "pay 35% of your corporate income in taxes and we'll pay the money out to those people you could have hired in social welfare" then suddenly hiring more people sounds pretty good to business.
The problem is the current political spectrum refuses to create that incentive to hire.
It's so painfully obvious you've never owned, operated or probably known an individual to run a small business.
Quote:It's so painfully obvious you've never owned, operated or probably known an individual to run a small business.
This is not directed at anyone in particular, I am just curious.
It seems to me the majority of conservatives against raising minimum wage are implying that cheap, poverty line level wages, are a prerequisite to having a successful business. That they cannot compete in the open market without cheap wages or the prices for goods/services will skyrocket. The way I see it is that this is only the outcome if you want maintain the same profit margins. Would it really cause businesses to make no profits and close down?
Quote:This is not directed at anyone in particular, I am just curious.
It seems to me the majority of conservatives against raising minimum wage are implying that cheap, poverty line level wages, are a prerequisite to having a successful business. That they cannot compete in the open market without cheap wages or the prices for goods/services will skyrocket. The way I see it is that this is only the outcome if you want maintain the same profit margins. Would it really cause businesses to make no profits and close down?
Well, in some cases, its just greed, I'd imagine. They want the profit margins to be enough to sustain their Lexus/ beach house/ vacations 5 times per year and so on....
Quote:This is not directed at anyone in particular, I am just curious.
It seems to me the majority of conservatives against raising minimum wage are implying that cheap, poverty line level wages, are a prerequisite to having a successful business. That they cannot compete in the open market without cheap wages or the prices for goods/services will skyrocket. The way I see it is that this is only the outcome if you want maintain the same profit margins. Would it really cause businesses to make no profits and close down?
It's actually just an ad hominem attack. Swap the idea of someone being a business owner for any other facet of existence and you can understand the psychology behind it.
"obviously you've never been white and male, so you can't understand 'reverse racism and reverse sexism'"
See how absurd the sentiment is?
It's just his way of reconciling cognitive dissonance. He doesn't have to deal with being wrong if he simple can label me as unqualified to offer information. By undergoing that mental exercise he cuts off consideration before it can happen.
To answer your question, when the wage floor is raise it happens for all businesses, no one loses ground, they just have to pay a living wage and either take the increased wage cost out of profits or raise prices a small amount. (wage costs are a fraction of the marginal cost involved in any product, you don't get a 1/1 increase in costs when wages are increased)
Quote:This is not directed at anyone in particular, I am just curious.
It seems to me the majority of conservatives against raising minimum wage are implying that cheap, poverty line level wages, are a prerequisite to having a successful business. That they cannot compete in the open market without cheap wages or the prices for goods/services will skyrocket. The way I see it is that this is only the outcome if you want maintain the same profit margins. Would it really cause businesses to make no profits and close down?
Not at all, the problem is when you let a third party that has never operated in that line of work set the wages and not the market.
There are very few jobs that actually pay minimum wage, and it's mostly entry level, non skilled labor that is paid minimum wage. When you raise the minimum wage the ones you hurt are the guys that have worked their way up over entry level pay.
These jobs that offer minimum wage, McDonalds, Walmart, Car Washes, these are not jobs meant to support a family.
Quote:Well, in some cases, its just greed, I'd imagine. They want the profit margins to be enough to sustain their Lexus/ beach house/ vacations 5 times per year and so on....
This is my impression as well... My problem with the GOP stems from their seemingly love of and support for greed. When you hear liberals complaining about income inequality this is what they are talking about. Profits soar and employees wages do not increase (for the most part). Why does it appear the majority are ok with this?
Quote:
To answer your question, when the wage floor is raise it happens for all businesses, no one loses ground, they just have to pay a living wage and either take the increased wage cost out of profits or raise prices a small amount. (wage costs are a fraction of the marginal cost involved in any product, you don't get a 1/1 increase in costs when wages are increased)
That's just a flat out lie.