(03-04-2022, 08:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (03-04-2022, 08:28 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]This happens, in part, because people don't know how to clearly delineate their feelings from the facts. The other part of this is you failing to recognize the crux of an argument. I was clear in my post to say Putin should not invade Ukraine. It is not moral. The point of my post was that if you really wanted to "stand with Ukraine," as is common in the virtue signaling communities, maybe you should consider voting out OUR terrible politicians who have contributed to this mess. Russia has legitimate grievances, but the US doesn't care because they don't have to. TWe have abandoned the geopolitical principals that helped bring down the wall in the first place. You can only push people so far before they break.
Sometimes, I am astounded by the gullibility of people.
Russia has legitimate grievances, you say? Nato was falling apart, Germany had disarmed, the Western democracies have deep political divisions, and no one did anything when Russia took Crimea. And at that point, you think Russia felt so threatened they just had to invade a neighboring country? Balderdash. They didn't feel threatened. Putin saw an opportunity. He thought he saw weakness. He thought he could get away with it. And now he's committing mass murder in order to take over another country by force, and you justify it, because they have, in your words, "legitimate grievances." No. They don't.
Even if all of that is true without any other extenuating circumstances, which isn't the case, the US and Russia had an agreement. The US is violating that agreement using NATO as the pretense. Not one inch east. That was our promise.
Again, did Russia need to invade Ukraine? No. I'm not supporting Putin. I'm questioning our policies. Ukraine should be able to join NATO. The question is whether we need to expand our defense system as well? Is there not an alternative solution? Of course.
Just curious, is there anything that would cause you to question our government that isn't precipitated my the media?
You didn't see nearly as much "cancel culture" around the annexation of Crimea and the violence in the Donbass in 2014 is because the Russian forces on the ground in both places were posing as local separatists. While it is most probable that all the men and hardware came from Russia, the worldwide journalists just didn't have enough reliable evidence to prove it. Russia had plausible deniability.
(03-04-2022, 02:56 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (03-04-2022, 08:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Russia has legitimate grievances, you say? Nato was falling apart, Germany had disarmed, the Western democracies have deep political divisions, and no one did anything when Russia took Crimea. And at that point, you think Russia felt so threatened they just had to invade a neighboring country? Balderdash. They didn't feel threatened. Putin saw an opportunity. He thought he saw weakness. He thought he could get away with it. And now he's committing mass murder in order to take over another country by force, and you justify it, because they have, in your words, "legitimate grievances." No. They don't.
Even if all of that is true without any other extenuating circumstances, which isn't the case, the US and Russia had an agreement. The US is violating that agreement using NATO as the pretense. Not one inch east. That was our promise.
Again, did Russia need to invade Ukraine? No. I'm not supporting Putin. I'm questioning our policies. Ukraine should be able to join NATO. The question is whether we need to expand our defense system as well? Is there not an alternative solution? Of course.
Just curious, is there anything that would cause you to question our government that isn't precipitated my the media?
I don't understand your question. Maybe you could explain what you are asking, or give me an example of what you are talking about.
(03-04-2022, 12:04 PM)JagsorDie Wrote: [ -> ]https://youtu.be/K5BAZ2bBUzM
If you want a seriously well thought out and educated perspective on what is going on in Ukraine from a former us infantrymen. Watch this video. One of my good friends who is a marine turned me on to this guy and I’ve been watching him ever since.
This is not about the bs political side of this (which none of you can seem to agree on anyway). This breaks down Russian(and Soviet) military doctrine in a way the media will not. It does a great job explaining why a lot of the stuff we see may be true but is not telling the entire story about this whole event and may be very misleading. What we see as weakness may in fact be part of their plan which they have always done.
These are some other very good sources he he turned me on to.
https://www.understandingwar.org/
Well worth watching and reading those
That's a pretty good analysis of how the war is going, although some commentary is heavy slanted. All the PR from MSM is Russia is losing badly but if that is the case why is Ukraine asking the world to help them? Most of the conflict hasn't been in the main civilization areas and hasn't been large battles. While the Russian strategy is to encircle and ensure no escape, I think Putin gave them a chance to concede and also allowed all the globalist to show their hand and further prove his point.
The longer it goes, it is going to get deadly. Russia has held back most of the troops and the first wave is definitely the less experienced canon fodder. Maybe they moved some elite troops into key areas but they haven't the normal western approach.
(03-04-2022, 12:39 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc
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I don't think it is as large as that country wide but it is definitely a large group in certain areas.
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(03-04-2022, 02:24 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been doing some reading because I'll be the first to admit I know little about Putin, Ukraine and its president, the role of the US in any of this (both historically and currently) and so on. After p_rushing's comments regarding the globalists vs Putin that explained a couple of things I had been wondering about- specifically the "canceling" of everything Russian that hasn't made sense to me- I decided to start reading from different sources so I could try and understand what the heck is going on.
Questions I've had:
-Why is Russia allowed to dictate who Ukraine is as a country? I say Russia and not Putin specifically because it seems Ukraine has been jerked around by rulers of Russia for millennia. They're like the red headed stepchild of eastern Europe.
-Why does Putin not want Ukraine in NATO? What does he lose if they join? I'm talking practical matters here.
-What is with the explosion of cancel culture attitude from pretty much everyone from countries to sports organizations to companies? I don't remember this being a thing back in 2014 when Russia took Crimea. This is the one thing that has been a huge question mark for me.
If the last six years, and especially the last two years, has taught me anything it's that the government and the media will make a boat load of noise and use cancel culture to divert our attention away from what it doesn't want us to pay attention to. So, what don't they want us to pay attention to? What's changed since 2014 when we seemed not to be overtly concerned with what Putin did in Crimea/Ukraine?
-Who is Zelenskyy? Like, the man is not afraid to call out anyone who is not supportive of Ukraine and is asking anyone who will listen to aid his country. He is also calling out the likes of FIFA and other sport organizations to cancel Russian countries from competing and such.
What I think I understand now:
-Ukraine wants to be part of NATO to have military backing in the event of Russian aggression. This article seems to describe this process. It also wants to be a sovereign nation.
-Putin sees Ukraine as part of Russia- period. This article explains a lot of his mindset in providing some historical context as to why he/Russia can dictate who Ukraine is as a country.
-Putin doesn't want Ukraine in NATO for Russia's national security but also because he sees the globalist threat being a problem for Russia as a country. An article I want to link doesn't seem to want to link to the specific story, only to the main site. I'll try to find another one.
-The globalists want the people to think Putin is a nutcase. This article goes into that subject regarding the media and misinformation. This somewhat answers my third question regarding cancel culture.
-I haven't gotten around to Zelenskyy yet.
I know these articles don't tell the whole story but they satisfied my questions for now in that they gave me some context. There is way too much history and way too many rabbit holes one could go down to try and understand the basics, much less the complexities, of how Russia and Ukraine got to where they are today.
I still don't know what to think about it all. I'm a practical person. I think in practical terms. I can also be a literal thinker. These make me see Putin's nationalist POV to a degree in that he feels if he does "A" then "B" will happen, though I don't agree with invading a country and taking it against its will. Just because he sees Ukraine as part of Russia doesn't make it his to take. If that is his only goal/reason for invading then he's definitely wrong.
If he feels a genuine threat from NATO for reasons I have yet to discover (that's a rabbit hole) then I can see why he feels like he has to take Ukraine before they become part of NATO. Again, I don't agree with him or his actions but I can see the "why". And at this point Ukraine won't be joining NATO unless they go against their own requirements for how a nation joins (described in part in the first article I linked to) so the point is moot.
As for the "globalist" part of all of this, I have not really ever understood it as a thing, organization, or whatever you want to call it, but I think I'm beginning to, and it's not something I feel good about. At all. I'll reserve my thoughts on that for now.
As for Zelensky, I haven't looked at much about him. I saw some stuff in the last few days on social media saying he has a huge bank account and property, setup by an oligarch that couldn't win himself. There are also a lot of interesting stuff from his past jobs and performances. Don't know how much is true and you really have to have a 48hr wait period on most of the stuff coming out from both sides.
For NATO and the globalist stuff, you can look at the what Putin did to kick out the central bankers, Rothschild, and now his move back to the gold standard. That is a huge rabbit hole though and can lead to a lot of crazy conspiracy stuff. Basically they don't control Russia's money and Russia no longer owes them money, so all the bank sanctions will have little impact now. It actually will push Russia closer to China.
The big side to this for me is what this actually ends up being. Is this a Russian invasion or are they intervening to stop a bad future from happening? The media is pushing the invasion but actions so far don't show Russia looking to invade and occupy Ukraine. I do see that changing if it continues though. Invasions are never good but intervention or liberating is what the US has done and most people see it as fine. The west just doesn't agree with Putin so they see his actions as bad.
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(03-04-2022, 08:31 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]As for Zelensky, I haven't looked at much about him. I saw some stuff in the last few days on social media saying he has a huge bank account and property, setup by an oligarch that couldn't win himself. There are also a lot of interesting stuff from his past jobs and performances. Don't know how much is true and you really have to have a 48hr wait period on most of the stuff coming out from both sides.
For NATO and the globalist stuff, you can look at the what Putin did to kick out the central bankers, Rothschild, and now his move back to the gold standard. That is a huge rabbit hole though and can lead to a lot of crazy conspiracy stuff. Basically they don't control Russia's money and Russia no longer owes them money, so all the bank sanctions will have little impact now. It actually will push Russia closer to China.
The big side to this for me is what this actually ends up being. Is this a Russian invasion or are they intervening to stop a bad future from happening? The media is pushing the invasion but actions so far don't show Russia looking to invade and occupy Ukraine. I do see that changing if it continues though. Invasions are never good but intervention or liberating is what the US has done and most people see it as fine. The west just doesn't agree with Putin so they see his actions as bad.
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When you send tanks across the border into another country, it's an invasion. You can debate motive, but let's be clear about what it is. This wasn't a quick strike against a strategic target, it wasn't a flexing of the military muscles as a warning, followed by a withdrawal.
Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union............ with himself in charge of course.
Interesting update from ISW today
March 5th update
Russian forces in Ukraine may have entered a possibly brief operational pause on March 5 as they prepare to resume operations against Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mykolayiv, and possibly Odesa in the next 24-48 hours. Russian troops did not launch major ground offensive operations against Kyiv, Kharkiv, or Mykolayiv in the last 24 hours. Ukrainian forces near Kharkiv, on the other hand, conducted a counter-offensive that reportedly penetrated to the Ukrainian-Russian border.
Link
The reason the Russians haven't caused more damage is because they thought they could topple the government quickly and install their own politicians, making Ukraine another Belarus. Now they are changing tactics to destroy infrastructure and gain ground in the south to prevent Ukraine from having a sea route for goods, effectively allow Russia to control exports.
Even if Russia withdraws, it will take years for Ukraine to rebuild and they won't have enough money to rebuild their military. It's a lose-lose situation for everyone.
I just have the feeling that Putin has gotten Russia in to a Vietnam like quagmire that he can not ever win. The Ukranian people are waging a Guerrilla warfare approach that does not follow battlefield norms......
This could go on for a long while.
One thing that shocks me is the amount of people who treat this thing like the news cycle... expecting this kind of conflict to be over in a few days, then onto the next. We are such entitled ignoramuses.
(03-06-2022, 11:10 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]One thing that shocks me is the amount of people who treat this thing like the news cycle... expecting this kind of conflict to be over in a few days, then onto the next. We are such entitled ignoramuses.
People who want war have no idea what it's really like.
I honestly thought that Russia might have taken over the capital by now, but I always thought Ukrainian resistance would continue indefinitely, regardless of if certain cities got taken over.
(03-06-2022, 11:22 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ].
People who want war have no idea what it's really like.
And they're never the ones who actually have to fight it.
(03-06-2022, 12:43 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (03-06-2022, 11:22 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ].
People who want war have no idea what it's really like.
And they're never the ones who actually have to fight it.
But man will they post on the internet about how much they're going to to do when the gloves come off.
(03-06-2022, 12:41 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I honestly thought that Russia might have taken over the capital by now, but I always thought Ukrainian resistance would continue indefinitely, regardless of if certain cities got taken over.
Russia could but that requires killing civilians and civilians who are now combatives when they defend themselves. It would require going door to door and removing everyone.
Russia released Ukrainian documents showing orders to destroy biological weapons in the labs near the Russian border. Now this could just be PR but if proven true, the US has some problems because the labs were funded by the DOD and they were even kn the state department's website until they removed them when this started.
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(03-06-2022, 08:08 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (03-06-2022, 12:41 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I honestly thought that Russia might have taken over the capital by now, but I always thought Ukrainian resistance would continue indefinitely, regardless of if certain cities got taken over.
Russia could but that requires killing civilians and civilians who are now combatives when they defend themselves. It would require going door to door and removing everyone.
Russia released Ukrainian documents showing orders to destroy biological weapons in the labs near the Russian border. Now this could just be PR but if proven true, the US has some problems because the labs were funded by the DOD and they were even kn the state department's website until they removed them when this started.
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I love how you never have links. Never change, buddy.
(03-06-2022, 08:24 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-06-2022, 08:08 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]Russia could but that requires killing civilians and civilians who are now combatives when they defend themselves. It would require going door to door and removing everyone.
Russia released Ukrainian documents showing orders to destroy biological weapons in the labs near the Russian border. Now this could just be PR but if proven true, the US has some problems because the labs were funded by the DOD and they were even kn the state department's website until they removed them when this started.
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I love how you never have links. Never change, buddy.
I found a few sites talking about this but most were saying this was false propaganda being pushed by Russia