(09-13-2022, 09:08 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 09:00 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I think we are too quick to believe our own propaganda. By all accounts, this was a win for Ukraine, but at a terrible cost.
I also have concerns NATO may be showing its hand a bit too much. I really hope we don't push Russia to do something extreme. If they already feel like they are fighting the entire west, they might not hold back.
By all accounts, there hasn't been any terrible cost. Except for the Russians.
As far as your remark about "propaganda," this news is coming from literally everywhere. Even Russian state TV.
What the hell have you been watching? Must be the same channel where Queen Elizabeth II is still alive and 2020 never happened.
(09-12-2022, 02:37 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-06-2022, 07:09 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure they have problems, it's war and plans never succeed. They are crushing Ukraine though. It just depends on what their end goals are. The last counter attack by Ukraine was a terrible crushing defeat. They pushed forward, Russia returned some fire and retreated. That repeated several times. Then the idiots realized wait, we are now surrounded on all sides. A known Russia tactic to retreat and then sure up the flanks with more men to surround the advancing troops.
The issue is the media has been pushing this story since the 2nd week of the war. Russia isn't going to just stop and go away and they aren't running out of stuff.
Terrible crushing defeat?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/polic...ines-favor
"Military experts are gushing over Ukraine’s stunning military advances over the past 72 hours, which broke through Russian lines in the Kharkiv region, reclaimed more than 1,200 square miles of occupied territory, and forced hundreds of humiliated Russian troops to retreat in disarray, abandoning their equipment and running for their lives.
“Ukraine has launched the greatest counteroffensive since World War II," said urban war expert [b]John Spencer[/b] on Twitter. “Look what they have done. They have achieved the unachievable.”
Here's some very frank discussion on Russian TV:
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/statu...hrrKLpIGVw
This was completely different than the failed counterattack. I haven't had much time so I haven't looked into what happened over the weekend. I did see that Ukraine attacked in the NE and then they claim they took a bunch of land, etc. I saw reports of power plants being hit and power going out in a lot of places. I also saw some stuff suggesting that it wasn't actually Ukrainian troops but was Nato and mercenaries.
(09-13-2022, 09:00 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I think we are too quick to believe our own propaganda. By all accounts, this was a win for Ukraine, but at a terrible cost.
I also have concerns NATO may be showing its hand a bit too much. I really hope we don't push Russia to do something extreme. If they already feel like they are fighting the entire west, they might not hold back.
Yes need to wait for a few days to actually see what is true. There are reports from both sides and the ones coming from Russian sources are pointing to non-Ukrainian troops being the ones that led the attacks and even worse some of the US defense mercenary groups being involved. Russia supposedly then attacked power plants which they previously haven't taken them offline. I really hope that the Nato or mercs stuff is false and that Russia doesn't start bombing like they can. If Russia decides it's had enough playing nice in the war, whole cities will be gone, civilians included.
We need to wait and see what shakes out as the truth.
(09-13-2022, 12:35 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 09:08 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]By all accounts, there hasn't been any terrible cost. Except for the Russians.
As far as your remark about "propaganda," this news is coming from literally everywhere. Even Russian state TV.
Say what?? Significant loss of life. Massive amounts of people being displaced from their homes and losing jobs. Houses and businesses totally whipped out. Loss of a significant portion of their GDP. Other than that, I'd have to agree that there hasn't been any terrible cost to the Ukrainians.
I was talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. Not the entire war. I thought he was also talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. I didn't think he was talking about the entire war because he used the word "was." And the war is on going.
Of course the entire war has been terribly destructive and cost a lot of Ukrainian lives.
(09-13-2022, 02:13 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 09:08 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]By all accounts, there hasn't been any terrible cost. Except for the Russians.
As far as your remark about "propaganda," this news is coming from literally everywhere. Even Russian state TV.
What the hell have you been watching? Must be the same channel where Queen Elizabeth II is still alive and 2020 never happened.
I was talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. I assumed that's what he was talking about. The Ukrainian counteroffensive has not come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
He said "by all accounts this was a win for the Ukrainians but at a terrible cost." I didn't think he was talking about the entire war because he use the word "was" and the war is continuing. And I thought he was responding to my remark about the counteroffensive.
Of course this entire war has come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
I would add, if he was talking about the entire war when he said "this was a win for the Ukrainians," then I think he's being very premature. The war is not over.
(09-13-2022, 07:45 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 02:13 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]What the hell have you been watching? Must be the same channel where Queen Elizabeth II is still alive and 2020 never happened.
I was talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. I assumed that's what he was talking about. The Ukrainian counteroffensive has not come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
He said "by all accounts this was a win for the Ukrainians but at a terrible cost." I didn't think he was talking about the entire war because he use the word "was" and the war is continuing. And I thought he was responding to my remark about the counteroffensive.
Of course this entire war has come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
I would add, if he was talking about the entire war when he said "this was a win for the Ukrainians," then I think he's being very premature. The war is not over.
At some point, you're going to have to acknowledge you're consuming propaganda. I know, I know... Russia has propaganda, too. Doesn't mean you're not consuming it.
Up until that counter offensive, the Ukrainians have been getting beat thoroughly, with as many as 250,000 casualties. I'm pretty sure it was you and your ilk talking about how they were "winning" the war after week one. Ukraine played their hand well and gained ground, but they also had 12,000 casualties. That's a heavy loss considering Russia didn't even have their reinforcements there. Not only that, NATO basically funded and planned this counteroffensive, which is a VERY dangerous game we're playing. The minute Russia feels like it's fighting the West in its entirety, there is no longer any benefit to restraint.
China, Russia, Iran would make a formidable opponent, and you're crazy if they aren't in cahoots. There are a growing number of countries that are standing up to Western hegemony, and I don't think we, as Americans, really understand how warped our view of reality has become.
(09-14-2022, 01:51 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 07:45 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I was talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. I assumed that's what he was talking about. The Ukrainian counteroffensive has not come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
He said "by all accounts this was a win for the Ukrainians but at a terrible cost." I didn't think he was talking about the entire war because he use the word "was" and the war is continuing. And I thought he was responding to my remark about the counteroffensive.
Of course this entire war has come at a terrible cost for Ukrainians.
I would add, if he was talking about the entire war when he said "this was a win for the Ukrainians," then I think he's being very premature. The war is not over.
At some point, you're going to have to acknowledge you're consuming propaganda. I know, I know... Russia has propaganda, too. Doesn't mean you're not consuming it.
Up until that counter offensive, the Ukrainians have been getting beat thoroughly, with as many as 250,000 casualties. I'm pretty sure it was you and your ilk talking about how they were "winning" the war after week one. Ukraine played their hand well and gained ground, but they also had 12,000 casualties. That's a heavy loss considering Russia didn't even have their reinforcements there. Not only that, NATO basically funded and planned this counteroffensive, which is a VERY dangerous game we're playing. The minute Russia feels like it's fighting the West in its entirety, there is no longer any benefit to restraint.
China, Russia, Iran would make a formidable opponent, and you're crazy if they aren't in cahoots. There are a growing number of countries that are standing up to Western hegemony, and I don't think we, as Americans, really understand how warped our view of reality has become.
What makes you think Ukraine had 12,000 casualties in this counteroffensive, and 250,000 casualties in the entire war? Where did you get that information?
Just so we're using the same definition, a casualty is anyone removed from the battle to death or injury, so when I am saying casualty, that is not a synonym for dead. Some folks don't realize that. I had to search for a while last night to get the info I was trying to find, but it's much harder to hard data from "reputable" news sites. I can post stuff from Al-Jazeera or other individual reporters who are following this stuff more closely, but you like to get your news from corporate press, so it's going to be hard for you to accept anything that doesn't sound like it was a written by an American millennial that thinks war is just a first-person shooter.
However, if you're willing to dig, you can find the occasional honest piece of journalism about the reality of this war. This is from WaPo about the beginning of the counteroffensive.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/202...mmunition/
While that does a good job of showing the suffering, it's still really hard to nail down the numbers of this war. Both sides aren't being honest. The Russian Commanders are estimating 12k casualties for the counteroffensive alone. Ukraine isn't giving its numbers at all, which makes me think it was substantial.
However, keep in mind that Ukraine literally used untrained fighters as front-line units to build up their presence in the southeast region. It was this diversion that caused Russia to withdraw troops from the North to reinforce its southern flank, which allowed the counteroffensive to succeed. It was a good plan to recapture some of the territory in the north, but it came at a GREAT COST, and the article I posted above echoes that sentiment. Russia basically just withdrew their troops once they realized they had been tricked while bombing the hell out of the bulk of the Ukranian forces in the south. This isn't an uncommon strategy for them.
Personally, I don't believe this counteroffensive works without serious planning intervention by NATO. We are playing a dangerous game. I just don't understand why everyone jumps at the first sign of positive news like everything has changed. We're all being lied to constantly right now. As to the total casualties, two officials from Ukraine said they are losing 1000 people a day since the war began, according to the Guardian. Even using their estimates conservatively, you're at 180k casualties since this war started.
(09-13-2022, 07:39 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 12:35 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Say what?? Significant loss of life. Massive amounts of people being displaced from their homes and losing jobs. Houses and businesses totally wiped out. Loss of a significant portion of their GDP. Other than that, I'd have to agree that there hasn't been any terrible cost to the Ukrainians.
I was talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. Not the entire war. I thought he was also talking about the Ukrainian counteroffensive. I didn't think he was talking about the entire war because he used the word "was." And the war is on going.
Of course the entire war has been terribly destructive and cost a lot of Ukrainian lives.
I was wondering. I was thinking that perhaps Alex Jones hacked your account.
(09-14-2022, 09:37 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Just so we're using the same definition, a casualty is anyone removed from the battle to death or injury, so when I am saying casualty, that is not a synonym for dead. Some folks don't realize that. I had to search for a while last night to get the info I was trying to find, but it's much harder to hard data from "reputable" news sites. I can post stuff from Al-Jazeera or other individual reporters who are following this stuff more closely, but you like to get your news from corporate press, so it's going to be hard for you to accept anything that doesn't sound like it was a written by an American millennial that thinks war is just a first-person shooter.
However, if you're willing to dig, you can find the occasional honest piece of journalism about the reality of this war. This is from WaPo about the beginning of the counteroffensive.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/202...mmunition/
While that does a good job of showing the suffering, it's still really hard to nail down the numbers of this war. Both sides aren't being honest. The Russian Commanders are estimating 12k casualties for the counteroffensive alone. Ukraine isn't giving its numbers at all, which makes me think it was substantial.
However, keep in mind that Ukraine literally used untrained fighters as front-line units to build up their presence in the southeast region. It was this diversion that caused Russia to withdraw troops from the North to reinforce its southern flank, which allowed the counteroffensive to succeed. It was a good plan to recapture some of the territory in the north, but it came at a GREAT COST, and the article I posted above echoes that sentiment. Russia basically just withdrew their troops once they realized they had been tricked while bombing the hell out of the bulk of the Ukranian forces in the south. This isn't an uncommon strategy for them.
Personally, I don't believe this counteroffensive works without serious planning intervention by NATO. We are playing a dangerous game. I just don't understand why everyone jumps at the first sign of positive news like everything has changed. We're all being lied to constantly right now. As to the total casualties, two officials from Ukraine said they are losing 1000 people a day since the war began, according to the Guardian. Even using their estimates conservatively, you're at 180k casualties since this war started.
I agree with a lot of what you say there. No one knows the actual casualties for the Ukrainians in this war. And it is a very dangerous situation. I think the west is trying to thread the needle between supporting the Ukrainians and provoking a larger conflict.
But you said I am absorbing propaganda, and then when I asked you where you got the "12,000 Ukrainian casualties" from you said you got it from the Russians. Do you not see the irony in that?
Dude. Use your brain. I linked an article that gave you firsthand accounts FROM the Ukrainians involved in the southern part of that offensive, in which THEY describe the absolute shellacking they took from the Russians. THEY said it was devastating. THEY said they lost 5 men for every Russian they killed. Ukraine put large units of untrained soldiers on the front lines. Russia bombed them mercilessly. They were a decoy, and they did their job. Whether it was 8000 casualties or 12,000, it doesn't matter. IT WAS A TERRIBLE COST. War is brutal, man.
Let's go back to my original sentence: By all accounts, this was a win for Ukraine, but at a terrible cost.
So, I stated clearly that this was a win for Ukraine BY ALL ACCOUNTS. I didn't mince words. They won that battle. That thing tends to happen in war. Nothing in that post was pro-Russia. I was just trying to temper the jubilee on this forum that comes when our media gives us a cherry-picked accounting of events that makes it seem one sided when it wasn't. It cost Ukraine a lot to win that battle. I would LOVE to give you the actual numbers, but we don't have them. Neither Ukrainian officials nor the western media even attempted to give us a true account (for the most part).
Now, let's look at your response: By all accounts, there hasn't been any terrible cost. Except for the Russians.
Why would you argue this didn't cost the Ukrainians anything? Why would you think this only cost the Russians? Because you were uninformed. Period. That's my point, dude.
I try to spend time on both sides of this story, and the more I do, the easier it is for me to see that our media is full of [BLEEP]. You should try it some time.
I don't believe everything Russia says, but they also aren't lying about EVERYTHING. Was it 12k? I don't know for certain. I could have made that point clearer, but I was busy doing your research for you, then trying to educate you. Not only that, then I have to waste my time explaining why you only are getting part of the story. Not only that, but I also have to use only resources that are lying to you as proof of them lying to you, which is a huge time sink. Not only that, then I have to defend a tangent after I prove a terrible cost, because you want to quibble over numbers.
Great, you got me. I am SO easily manipulated by Russian propaganda. Lol. Geez, Marty.
Russia says Germany 'crossed' red line in arms supply to Ukraine
Germany backtracks stern stance on military vehicles to Ukraine and send infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers
Russia's ambassador to Germany Sergey Nechayev told state-owned media on Friday that Germany had "crossed" a red line by proving arms to Ukraine.
"Supplying the Ukrainian regime with German weapons is not only against Russian servicemen, but also against the Donbas civilians," Nechayev told RT. "It is certainly the red line which the German authorities should not have crossed."
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-say...ly-ukraine
(09-16-2022, 05:27 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]Russia says Germany 'crossed' red line in arms supply to Ukraine
Germany backtracks stern stance on military vehicles to Ukraine and send infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers
Russia's ambassador to Germany Sergey Nechayev told state-owned media on Friday that Germany had "crossed" a red line by proving arms to Ukraine.
"Supplying the Ukrainian regime with German weapons is not only against Russian servicemen, but also against the Donbas civilians," Nechayev told RT. "It is certainly the red line which the German authorities should not have crossed."
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-say...ly-ukraine
Germany crossed a red line? What is Russia going to do about it? Nuke Berlin?
... and this is the problem with western mentality. We've been on top too long.
From one of my favorite movies:
Elias: We're going to lose this war...
Taylor: Come on, you really think so.....
ELias: I figure we've been kicking other peoples [BLEEP] for so long it's time we got ours kicked.....
This makes sense as a military strategy. As a political strategy, he might be shooting himself in the foot.
(09-21-2022, 06:52 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-inv...ticle_pos1
The Ragtag Army That Won the Battle of Kyiv and Saved Ukraine
Citizen volunteers teamed up with soldiers to turn the tide in the most consequential European battle since World War II
Russia didn't appear to want to invade Kyiv or they would have done it. It was a threat that Ukraine had to respect and split their forces. Kyiv has been spared most of the bombing and people are going about their daily lives for the most part.
Russia also didn't send their main troops and used old equipment. They setup supply lines and then just stopped. They were literally sitting ducks but Ukraine couldn't do much about it.
Ukraine couldn't reinforce the south and east because of it.
(09-22-2022, 11:39 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.the-sun.com/news/6277405/rus...t-ukraine/
This will be interesting to see how it goes. The referendums are starting this weekend to join Russia. If they pass, those areas will become Russian territory and any further attacks could be treated as an attack on Putin.
So the Russian troops withdrawal during the counterattack may have been strategy as the areas they left aren't voting to join Russia. It matches some of the reports where there wasn't any real opposition and there wasn't exactly a huge amount of Ukrainian troops.
Hopefully this is an end to the war as Russia gains to 2 main areas with Russian speaking people. Then the people have no reason to fight and force Putin to stop.
Ukraine will then need to stand down but I'm afraid the US won't let them stop. It will continue until a war is openly declared.
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