Glad to hear the U.N. finally decided to do something about those folks stuck in the Azovstol (sp?) steel works plant. At least some were able to finally get out but the sick and injured should be a priority. Sadly they're not as easy to evacuate and Putin would probably go nuts if the U.N. were to go in that place to get them out.
(05-01-2022, 10:04 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Glad to hear the U.N. finally decided to do something about those folks stuck in the Azovstol (sp?) steel works plant. At least some were able to finally get out but the sick and injured should be a priority. Sadly they're not as easy to evacuate and Putin would probably go nuts if the U.N. were to go in that place to get them out.
Putin has been offering to get them out for over a week, at least publicly. There has been 1 side not allowing the civilians to leave and it wasn't Russia. There are lots of videos from the civilians talking about being forced to stay there and used as shields. Now it could be PR with Russia saying release a video or we kill you but it doesn't appear to be that.
There have been some military caught trying to leave as civilians in the past week or 2. Then you have Ukrainian leadership saying they will fight to the last man.
The issue is the people are in the tunnels with Azov and the mercenaries. Russia stopped the cleanup they were doing and didn't enter the tunnels. That would be hard to fight in the tunnels and both sides would lose people. Russia could gas them out but they don't appear to want to harm any civilians there. The ones who have surrendered have talked about the conditions and the threat to anyone leaving being shot in the back. They are basically out of supplies but for whatever reason the fighters still are keeping civilians there and are not surrendering.
PR aside, Russia isn't advancing and is holding positions to stop any military from escaping. If everyone were to surrender, that would allow the civilians to get help. Otherwise it is going to be a while until it's safe to enter the tunnels. You don't know what has been rigged up so no one would be safe from either side.
It goes back to what's so important about the tunnels. It sounds more and more likely that NATO countries are there, foreign mercenaries have been part of the surrendered and deaths. Rumors of US general being there, crazy stuff happening in the tunnels, etc. Who knows what is true but it appears something valuable is there as Ukraine doesn't want to give them up and Russia doesn't want to destroy them.
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(05-02-2022, 01:00 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2022, 10:04 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Glad to hear the U.N. finally decided to do something about those folks stuck in the Azovstol (sp?) steel works plant. At least some were able to finally get out but the sick and injured should be a priority. Sadly they're not as easy to evacuate and Putin would probably go nuts if the U.N. were to go in that place to get them out.
Putin has been offering to get them out for over a week, at least publicly. There has been 1 side not allowing the civilians to leave and it wasn't Russia. There are lots of videos from the civilians talking about being forced to stay there and used as shields. Now it could be PR with Russia saying release a video or we kill you but it doesn't appear to be that.
There have been some military caught trying to leave as civilians in the past week or 2. Then you have Ukrainian leadership saying they will fight to the last man.
The issue is the people are in the tunnels with Azov and the mercenaries. Russia stopped the cleanup they were doing and didn't enter the tunnels. That would be hard to fight in the tunnels and both sides would lose people. Russia could gas them out but they don't appear to want to harm any civilians there. The ones who have surrendered have talked about the conditions and the threat to anyone leaving being shot in the back. They are basically out of supplies but for whatever reason the fighters still are keeping civilians there and are not surrendering.
PR aside, Russia isn't advancing and is holding positions to stop any military from escaping. If everyone were to surrender, that would allow the civilians to get help. Otherwise it is going to be a while until it's safe to enter the tunnels. You don't know what has been rigged up so no one would be safe from either side.
It goes back to what's so important about the tunnels. It sounds more and more likely that NATO countries are there, foreign mercenaries have been part of the surrendered and deaths. Rumors of US general being there, crazy stuff happening in the tunnels, etc. Who knows what is true but it appears something valuable is there as Ukraine doesn't want to give them up and Russia doesn't want to destroy them.
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You post Russian propaganda. Do you really believe that stuff?
(05-02-2022, 05:45 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (05-02-2022, 01:00 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]Putin has been offering to get them out for over a week, at least publicly. There has been 1 side not allowing the civilians to leave and it wasn't Russia. There are lots of videos from the civilians talking about being forced to stay there and used as shields. Now it could be PR with Russia saying release a video or we kill you but it doesn't appear to be that.
There have been some military caught trying to leave as civilians in the past week or 2. Then you have Ukrainian leadership saying they will fight to the last man.
The issue is the people are in the tunnels with Azov and the mercenaries. Russia stopped the cleanup they were doing and didn't enter the tunnels. That would be hard to fight in the tunnels and both sides would lose people. Russia could gas them out but they don't appear to want to harm any civilians there. The ones who have surrendered have talked about the conditions and the threat to anyone leaving being shot in the back. They are basically out of supplies but for whatever reason the fighters still are keeping civilians there and are not surrendering.
PR aside, Russia isn't advancing and is holding positions to stop any military from escaping. If everyone were to surrender, that would allow the civilians to get help. Otherwise it is going to be a while until it's safe to enter the tunnels. You don't know what has been rigged up so no one would be safe from either side.
It goes back to what's so important about the tunnels. It sounds more and more likely that NATO countries are there, foreign mercenaries have been part of the surrendered and deaths. Rumors of US general being there, crazy stuff happening in the tunnels, etc. Who knows what is true but it appears something valuable is there as Ukraine doesn't want to give them up and Russia doesn't want to destroy them.
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You post Russian propaganda. Do you really believe that stuff?
You believe anything coming out of western media and MSM?
I only believe things that can be backed up by facts or all info available points to it being true. Whether you want to believe it or not, MSM is lying and they are all helping Ukraine with PR. Look at the ghost crap that was proven to be a recording of a game within 24 hours. They finally admit it and they still say it is ok because it is giving hope.
You only see Russia as the bad guys because of their history and we have all been told to hate Putin. You see all the terrible Ukraine stuff forgotten or covered up. Ukraine was were most of the terrible people were from at the end of Stalin. They have continued their evils and corruption.
There are rumors that Ukraine was going to attack Donbass and Russia acted first. No way to back those up yet. They did build troop levels up in the area and it's why the main army is now stuck there. There are some facts coming out aboit stuff in congress being written in January though. So seems like they knew stuff was going to happen, just can't prove which way.
The situation is neither side is good or should be supported. Russia is purging the nazis, so that is great. The civilians on both sides are hurting.
Ukraine PR has given nothing tangible and only trying to encourage people and say they won't be giving up. There is nothing to believe but feelings from the Ukraine side.
We don't know what happens behind closed doors but we do know that in public Russia keeps making strides to end it and help get civilians out. Ukraine is not looking for peace, they keep trying to get the world in a war.
So either we end up in a war or Ukraine surrenders eventually. The war option is worse for everyone but those corrupt people and Warhawks. What's going to happen when Russia cuts off oil and natural gas supply to Europe? Good luck with that.
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(05-02-2022, 12:07 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (05-02-2022, 05:45 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]You post Russian propaganda. Do you really believe that stuff?
You believe anything coming out of western media and MSM?
I only believe things that can be backed up by facts or all info available points to it being true. Whether you want to believe it or not, MSM is lying and they are all helping Ukraine with PR. Look at the ghost crap that was proven to be a recording of a game within 24 hours. They finally admit it and they still say it is ok because it is giving hope.
You only see Russia as the bad guys because of their history and we have all been told to hate Putin. You see all the terrible Ukraine stuff forgotten or covered up. Ukraine was were most of the terrible people were from at the end of Stalin. They have continued their evils and corruption.
There are rumors that Ukraine was going to attack Donbass and Russia acted first. No way to back those up yet. They did build troop levels up in the area and it's why the main army is now stuck there. There are some facts coming out aboit stuff in congress being written in January though. So seems like they knew stuff was going to happen, just can't prove which way.
The situation is neither side is good or should be supported. Russia is purging the nazis, so that is great. The civilians on both sides are hurting.
Ukraine PR has given nothing tangible and only trying to encourage people and say they won't be giving up. There is nothing to believe but feelings from the Ukraine side.
We don't know what happens behind closed doors but we do know that in public Russia keeps making strides to end it and help get civilians out. Ukraine is not looking for peace, they keep trying to get the world in a war.
So either we end up in a war or Ukraine surrenders eventually. The war option is worse for everyone but those corrupt people and Warhawks. What's going to happen when Russia cuts off oil and natural gas supply to Europe? Good luck with that.
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Just like Patton - I see the Russians as the bigger threat.
He basically said, let's use these hardened German soldiers who don't have any ideology other than fighting for their country gather them up with my Army and lets push these Russians back into Moscow and kill them all or for the next 50 years we will be dealing with it.
[BLEEP] psycho but a great general
Churchill thought the same thing. Only FDR was gullible enough to think he could control Stalin.
I do wonder about that. How would it have played out if we chose to try and liberate Poland after 1945 but before Russia got the bomb in 1949?
How far would allied troops have gotten? The Nazis went 0 for 3 on Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad. Could we have conquered/liberated even one of those cities? Could we have prevented the Soviets from getting the bomb? A lot of their bomb development work was in Kazakhstan. Could we have gotten there in time?
We didn't need to. We needed to drive them back into Russia. Push into Moscow and hold until they negotiate a treaty. But, I mean, that's with hindsight.
(05-02-2022, 12:14 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ] (05-02-2022, 12:07 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]You believe anything coming out of western media and MSM?
I only believe things that can be backed up by facts or all info available points to it being true. Whether you want to believe it or not, MSM is lying and they are all helping Ukraine with PR. Look at the ghost crap that was proven to be a recording of a game within 24 hours. They finally admit it and they still say it is ok because it is giving hope.
You only see Russia as the bad guys because of their history and we have all been told to hate Putin. You see all the terrible Ukraine stuff forgotten or covered up. Ukraine was were most of the terrible people were from at the end of Stalin. They have continued their evils and corruption.
There are rumors that Ukraine was going to attack Donbass and Russia acted first. No way to back those up yet. They did build troop levels up in the area and it's why the main army is now stuck there. There are some facts coming out aboit stuff in congress being written in January though. So seems like they knew stuff was going to happen, just can't prove which way.
The situation is neither side is good or should be supported. Russia is purging the nazis, so that is great. The civilians on both sides are hurting.
Ukraine PR has given nothing tangible and only trying to encourage people and say they won't be giving up. There is nothing to believe but feelings from the Ukraine side.
We don't know what happens behind closed doors but we do know that in public Russia keeps making strides to end it and help get civilians out. Ukraine is not looking for peace, they keep trying to get the world in a war.
So either we end up in a war or Ukraine surrenders eventually. The war option is worse for everyone but those corrupt people and Warhawks. What's going to happen when Russia cuts off oil and natural gas supply to Europe? Good luck with that.
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Just like Patton - I see the Russians as the bigger threat.
He basically said, let's use these hardened German soldiers who don't have any ideology other than fighting for their country gather them up with my Army and lets push these Russians back into Moscow and kill them all or for the next 50 years we will be dealing with it.
[BLEEP] psycho but a great general
I'm not saying Russia isn't a threat but in a place where Russia gets rid of terrible people in Ukraine and stops the NATO push by the globalist, I really don't see the issue that the US needs to be involved. It's one thing to say we will help evacuate the civilians but sending arms to help 1 of the 2 bad sides never ends up working out in the end.
Russia is so bad and everyone should be afraid of them right? It's so bad during an active war that members of congress supposedly fly into a closed airspace because Russia is shooting everything down. They then walk openly on the streets while Russia is bombing civil areas with no regard to killing civilians. Right? All that is true right?
The media has been lying for a long time so you can bet they are still lying now. I'm 75/25% that they weren't in Ukraine as a lot of his videos have looked faked and green screened from the actor and production company owner with all that access to equipment already. Or they are in Kyev and there is no threat from Russia as Russia is doing what they have said and taking the areas that have already declared independence and cutting off all transportation routes to stop arms being moved into Ukraine.
I've said this from the beginning, if Russia looks to occupy or take over Ukraine, that crosses the line but securing the freedom of the independent territories after the constant bombing for 8 years and removing missiles from near it's borders is fine as it's the same thing the US has done.
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I don't buy for a second that Putin cares about the people of Donbass or getting rid of NAZI's. I think he's just trying to secure the resources of Crimea, destroy the infrastructure of Ukraine, and create a buffer zone from NATO.
(05-02-2022, 09:47 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I don't buy for a second that Putin cares about the people of Donbass or getting rid of NAZI's. I think he's just trying to secure the resources of Crimea, destroy the infrastructure of Ukraine, and create a buffer zone from NATO.
He may not but he is using this to make Russia not look as bad.
Russia could have killed the power and internet everywhere but they haven't. Why is that? I think because they want to stop the PR machine of the west. Everyone have cameras and yet we aren't getting thousands of videos showing civilians being killed. Every move the PR machine makes, Russia has videos showing the opposite.
Russia has done a good job to paint the image that they aren't trying to overthrow Ukraine and following the reasons for attacking. Even if they don't really believe a word of what they are saying and doing, it's hard to say they are evil in this instance. It's mutually beneficial from the Russian side, so they just claim they are freeing Donbass and get the good PR from the civilians welcoming them there.
Unless the US wants to be the overlord who says Russia can't leave its soil and police the world, you just have to monitor things like this and only step in when someone crosses the line.
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Don't get me wrong, I don't believe what's coming out in the MSM, either. It's just really hard to tell what's going on. My rule of thumb is, "when in doubt: wait." I listen to the sides of the story, then wait and see what happens. That way, I haven't become personally invested and can more easily see who was telling the truth. So far, the US media is not exactly crushing it, but I'm still mostly in the wait and see process.
(05-03-2022, 07:13 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Don't get me wrong, I don't believe what's coming out in the MSM, either. It's just really hard to tell what's going on. My rule of thumb is, "when in doubt: wait." I listen to the sides of the story, then wait and see what happens. That way, I haven't become personally invested and can more easily see who was telling the truth. So far, the US media is not exactly crushing it, but I'm still mostly in the wait and see process.
I need at least three or five sources of information that differ from each other and find the truth in the middle.
Oh good, the Gray Fallacy.
(05-03-2022, 05:14 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Oh good, the Gray Fallacy.
Meh, a little different.
That's more about arguments.
These are allegedly "facts" reported by various media outlets.
None of them match. Where is the truth?
(05-04-2022, 01:35 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ] (05-03-2022, 05:14 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Oh good, the Gray Fallacy.
Meh, a little different.
That's more about arguments.
These are allegedly "facts" reported by various media outlets.
None of them match. Where is the truth?
Not necessarily in the middle.
I think the "middle" argument is more often than not conflated with the courtroom approach. It's not that the answer is in the middle, but that you need to listen to multiple different experts, witnesses, and advocates to make the best judgment, which may or may not be in the middle.
(05-04-2022, 03:20 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I think the "middle" argument is more often than not conflated with the courtroom approach. It's not that the answer is in the middle, but that you need to listen to multiple different experts, witnesses, and advocates to make the best judgment, which may or may not be in the middle.
I guess what I should say is that I read multiple sources and I find differing accounts as well, and using my best judgment decide what my OPINION on these facts are. It's not necessarily in the middle as in the average of the sums put together.
It can’t always apply but if I’m looking strictly for facts I’ll implement a mental Venn diagram to reports and articles. All of the facts may not be evident but many times there is enough overlap to get a handle on what the truth of the matter may be.
(05-05-2022, 10:38 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]It can’t always apply but if I’m looking strictly for facts I’ll implement a mental Venn diagram to reports and articles. All of the facts may not be evident but many times there is enough overlap to get a handle on what the truth of the matter may be.
I notice it's the Conservatives and Libertarians arguing about this stuff..
I guess the liberals just accept whatever is spoon-fed to them