(04-06-2022, 06:14 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (04-06-2022, 05:23 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]You think the Ukrainians went in and shot their own people for a propaganda stunt? And you discount all the eyewitnesses who said it was the Russians who did it?
There are satellite photos taken days before the Ukrainians re-took Bucha that show the dead bodies in the exact same locations they were in when the news media got in there.
He never provides sources for his conspiracies.
"I'm not going to post the links but you can search for it yourself if you don't believe me." - Guy who saw something on Facebook and takes it as fact.
(04-06-2022, 05:23 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (04-06-2022, 01:19 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]There are definitely a bunch of dead in some places. The question becomes who are the dead bodies and who killed them. Both sides can show pictures of the same thing and claim it was the other side that killed them.
Both sides are saying each other is killing civilians. Russia is causing a lot more damage as they try to remove all Ukrainian troops from the encircled cities. Those cities are heavily damaged. Azov fighters are mixing in with civilians and lots of reports of them using civilians as shields. The battles are being fought in the cities so anyone still there is definitely at risk of being killed. Then you also have civilians taking up arms and defending themselves and country. You also have Russians in a lot of these cities and they may be fighting against Ukraine.
Unfortunately civilians are dying and it's not going to stop until Ukraine agrees to terms or Russia accomplishes whatever their goals are. The PR push by the worldwide media has followed a playbook, there are supposedly PR firms being paid to message it for Ukraine and feed the MSM. First it was they needed weapons, then they were beating Russia back, then they needed more to continue to win, then it was you are afraid to help Ukraine because of Russia, and now it's moving into the Ukraine has to have help because Russia is committing war crimes against civilians. I don't trust anything coming from either side.
There are some crazy stuff being thrown out there about the last stand in Azovstal (Mariupol) right now. Chatter about a 3-star General, confirmed French troops/leaders, and British, Germany, and Sweden NATO troops being there with the Azov nazis. French troops were confirmed killed in a helicopter that was supposedly trying to evacuate the Azov leadership from Mariupol. Russia claiming 2 more attempts were shot down.
Don't know want Russia wants with the last area they don't control but it's not a large area. They could just carpet bomb it and be done with it. It moves the believable meter up a little that either someone important is there and they want them alive or the even crazier stuff about what's under the location.
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You think the Ukrainians went in and shot their own people for a propaganda stunt? And you discount all the eyewitnesses who said it was the Russians who did it?
There are satellite photos taken days before the Ukrainians re-took Bucha that show the dead bodies in the exact same locations they were in when the news media got in there.
There own people? They wouldn't view them as their own people, they were wearing white on their arms or legs and had care packages from Russian troops.
Azov are terrible people and yes they would clearly shoot civilians who are not supporting them.
This instance was quickly thrown together I guess because they didn't want the clear evidence to show Ukraine killed their own people who supported Russia or received supplies.
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(04-06-2022, 09:01 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (04-06-2022, 06:14 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]He never provides sources for his conspiracies.
"I'm not going to post the links but you can search for it yourself if you don't believe me." - Guy who saw something on Facebook and takes it as fact.
I don't use facebook, so why would I believe something there?
You just want someone to tell you what to think. Do your own research and decide for yourself instead of relying on someone else.
Any links contain graphic images, so not posting any of those. Other sources are PR from both sides. Then you have people providing videos from on the ground. There is no truthful links for everything so I don't want to provide something that is true today and pushing PR the next day. All sides have some truth but each day and situation could be different.
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(04-07-2022, 12:45 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (04-06-2022, 09:01 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]"I'm not going to post the links but you can search for it yourself if you don't believe me." - Guy who saw something on Facebook and takes it as fact.
I don't use facebook, so why would I believe something there?
You just want someone to tell you what to think. Do your own research and decide for yourself instead of relying on someone else.
Any links contain graphic images, so not posting any of those. Other sources are PR from both sides. Then you have people providing videos from on the ground. There is no truthful links for everything so I don't want to provide something that is true today and pushing PR the next day. All sides have some truth but each day and situation could be different.
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Do the words “pull it” resonate with you?
There is no doubt about it, Putin and the Russian Military are War Criminals........
Russia-Ukraine War: More than 900 civilian bodies found in Kyiv region
Police said the bodies were discovered in the region surrounding the Ukrainian capital following Russia's withdrawal, noting that most of them were fatally shot
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/ukrain...04-16-2022
(04-16-2022, 07:04 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]There is no doubt about it, Putin and the Russian Military are War Criminals........
Russia-Ukraine War: More than 900 civilian bodies found in Kyiv region
Police said the bodies were discovered in the region surrounding the Ukrainian capital following Russia's withdrawal, noting that most of them were fatally shot
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/ukrain...04-16-2022
Was there ever a story with any information on this or just a headline? Didn't see anything on this.
Dailymail is reporting on the tunnels under Mariupol, I guess they are real and the scope of them is very large. Add another one to the conspiracy theories. Now will the rumors of what was going on in the tunnels be true?
Looks like the bloodiest part of the war is starting. The east battle is going to kill or capture the 40,000 troops there. Russia already cut them off and have been taking out supply lines. Hopefully peace agreements are reached before then but it's looking more like Zelenskyy wants to destroy the country until everyone is dead.
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(02-24-2022, 06:23 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]This is really bad and our current president looks so weak on the world stage. Putin is pretty much "playing him like a fiddle". The so-called "strong sanctions" put in place is pretty much nothing.
Personally, I don't get the fact that NATO is going to meet once again today to discuss further sanctions. Seriously? As if war crimes and the destruction of entire cities over the past month weren't enough to initiate the highest level of sanctions at that time !!! A day late and a dollar short once again. I think Poland had it right when they wanted to send air defense a month ago but were prevented by NATO from doing so. SMH
(04-20-2022, 12:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-s...e-ukraine/
Here's a long, interesting read. It's by a former intelligence officer for Switzerland. It gives some alternative theories about what's actually going on in Ukraine. There's a follow up that I haven't read yet.
https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-s...an-update/
I read all of the first one. My summary and understanding: The Ukrainian army bombed the crap out of the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass region, and has been, it seems, since 2014. Paramilitary groups financed by the US and the EU Countries have also been killing Donbass residents prior to the beginning of the war. Russia intervened to try and stop this, while also attempting to negotiate a neutrality agreement with Ukraine. Now, Russia is getting painted as a marauding invader and occupier, when they are actually trying to stop the killing of the Donbass peoples.
Well, they are at least using that as their justification. They may have ulterior motives (as most nations do), but this is one of the primary goals. I think they want Crimea for strategic reasons, and they are looking to set up a buffer zone between Russia and NATO countries. Donbass as an independent nation would serve that purpose. While they are there, they are looking to destroy the infrastructure of Ukraine to make it a less desirable staging area for NATO defenses.
(04-20-2022, 02:00 PM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ] (04-20-2022, 12:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-s...e-ukraine/
Here's a long, interesting read. It's by a former intelligence officer for Switzerland. It gives some alternative theories about what's actually going on in Ukraine. There's a follow up that I haven't read yet.
https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-s...an-update/
I read all of the first one. My summary and understanding: The Ukrainian army bombed the crap out of the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass region, and has been, it seems, since 2014. Paramilitary groups financed by the US and the EU Countries have also been killing Donbass residents prior to the beginning of the war. Russia intervened to try and stop this, while also attempting to negotiate a neutrality agreement with Ukraine. Now, Russia is getting painted as a marauding invader and occupier, when they are actually trying to stop the killing of the Donbass peoples.
Turns out, when you try to secede from a country, that country might fight you.
Especially when there's reason to believe that "you" don't really want to secede, but are being put up to it by a more powerful neighbor.
None of this is actually news. Yes, the war started in 2014.
Russia started that war too.
Its surprising to me how many people try and defend Russia invading Ukraine. I got to hear the qanon version from my dad a month ago, that Russia was destroying the 'biolabs' in Ukraine, and that China might need to do the same thing in Taiwan. Seriously? People, from the US, seriously believe that Russia is invading Ukraine for Biolabs? Even after 2 months of war. No, thats [BLEEP]. Russia is invading to add territory. The knock on them prior to their invasion is they wanted a land bridge to Crimea, which just so happens to be all the territory they are still holding/fighting over. I think Russia, and us too if we're honest, thought they would roll over Ukraine. It just turned out that Russia was way less effective then thought, and Ukraine a lot more together than they seemed. I don't know why Russia needs a warm water port when their navy sucks, but they think they need it.
Also, it is interesting that the q-anon types online making posts about China needing to invade Taiwan for biolabs too. Its like they forgot all of the last 70 years of history. China wouldn't invade Taiwan cause of biolabs. If they invade its cause they want the territory and believe its part of their country. It seems to me like the conspiracy theory's are being provided by Russia/Chinese shills at this point. They will probably be right about Taiwan going back to China at somepoint. Especially with US decreasing its dependence on Taiwan's semi-conductors and trying to build our own fabrications back in the US again, it looks to me like we are setting ourselves up to let China do it in about a decade. Anyway, thats enough rant for me. Russia sucks, hope they gain nothing from this and get beat back to their borders.
(02-24-2022, 11:13 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Nothing good will come of this.
One of the repeated themes in Russian history is it doesn't matter how many soldiers are brought to the fight, it matters how many actually fight.
Best case scenario is that Russians don't actually want to die for this, and they will lose their will once Ukrainian anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons start inflicting damage.
Worst case scenario is Russia achieves all their military objectives, and we sanction the ever loving crap out of them, but the Russians never leave and we and our allies never see any cause to ease up on the sanctions. That leaves us and our allies having to long term plan on not having any food, wood, steel, oil, natural gas, or coal from Russia, and that leaves Russia massively militarized but with deep economic wounds. That's basically the situation that Japan festered in for four years before they finally lashed out at Pearl Harbor. The worst case seems more likely than the best case, unfortunately. And the worst case will have ramifications for long beyond the time that the tanks stop rolling and the mortars stop launching.
Good call, this does seem more likely
(04-20-2022, 02:04 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Well, they are at least using that as their justification. They may have ulterior motives (as most nations do), but this is one of the primary goals. I think they want Crimea for strategic reasons, and they are looking to set up a buffer zone between Russia and NATO countries. Donbass as an independent nation would serve that purpose. While they are there, they are looking to destroy the infrastructure of Ukraine to make it a less desirable staging area for NATO defenses.
Crimea is definitely a needed area to hold. It will help Russia gain a lot of control and resources.
There's been some mention from the Russian side that Azov was planning to invade. If you look at the army location before the bombing started, they were near or moving towards there to reclaim the territory.
Don't buy it but they have been able to kill over 10,000 civilians without the world or Russia doing anything.
You also have polls showing NATO support was growing and weapons being moved to encroach.
Then you have the Russia is just evil side and wants to kill and enslave people.
It's probably a mix of all of them and more we don't know about yet.
(04-21-2022, 10:13 AM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ]Its surprising to me how many people try and defend Russia invading Ukraine. I got to hear the qanon version from my dad a month ago, that Russia was destroying the 'biolabs' in Ukraine, and that China might need to do the same thing in Taiwan. Seriously? People, from the US, seriously believe that Russia is invading Ukraine for Biolabs? Even after 2 months of war. No, thats [BLEEP]. Russia is invading to add territory. The knock on them prior to their invasion is they wanted a land bridge to Crimea, which just so happens to be all the territory they are still holding/fighting over. I think Russia, and us too if we're honest, thought they would roll over Ukraine. It just turned out that Russia was way less effective then thought, and Ukraine a lot more together than they seemed. I don't know why Russia needs a warm water port when their navy sucks, but they think they need it.
Also, it is interesting that the q-anon types online making posts about China needing to invade Taiwan for biolabs too. Its like they forgot all of the last 70 years of history. China wouldn't invade Taiwan cause of biolabs. If they invade its cause they want the territory and believe its part of their country. It seems to me like the conspiracy theory's are being provided by Russia/Chinese shills at this point. They will probably be right about Taiwan going back to China at somepoint. Especially with US decreasing its dependence on Taiwan's semi-conductors and trying to build our own fabrications back in the US again, it looks to me like we are setting ourselves up to let China do it in about a decade. Anyway, thats enough rant for me. Russia sucks, hope they gain nothing from this and get beat back to their borders.
(02-24-2022, 11:13 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Nothing good will come of this.
One of the repeated themes in Russian history is it doesn't matter how many soldiers are brought to the fight, it matters how many actually fight.
Best case scenario is that Russians don't actually want to die for this, and they will lose their will once Ukrainian anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons start inflicting damage.
Worst case scenario is Russia achieves all their military objectives, and we sanction the ever loving crap out of them, but the Russians never leave and we and our allies never see any cause to ease up on the sanctions. That leaves us and our allies having to long term plan on not having any food, wood, steel, oil, natural gas, or coal from Russia, and that leaves Russia massively militarized but with deep economic wounds. That's basically the situation that Japan festered in for four years before they finally lashed out at Pearl Harbor. The worst case seems more likely than the best case, unfortunately. And the worst case will have ramifications for long beyond the time that the tanks stop rolling and the mortars stop launching.
Good call, this does seem more likely
The Biolabs are real and there are reasons the US set them up in other countries and it's not because they have great scientists. Paperwork, contracts, and money were all available online in the past.
Now Russia invading because of them is just conspiracy theory stuff. Russia did claim the US was working on weapons there to use against Russian people but that's unproven so far.
The sanctions won't do anything but move them closer to China and further show all the EU hypocrisy in still buying oil.
On the good side, it could make countries start growing their own food and making their own things again instead of just buying it from the cheapest possible place.
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Just heard Jennifer Griffin, who is in Ukraine, on the radio reporting that huge amounts of heavy and more lethal U.S. and NATO weapons are pouring into the country. I’ll give Biden credit for responding with the amount of military aid he’s authorized.
Griffin also brought up another good point in that while NATO was criticized (and held accountable by the bad orange man) for shirking their financial responsibilities, they’re digging deep now that the Russian bear is on their doorstep. Hopefully they’ve learned a lesson.
FIFTEEN THOUSAND Russians killed in Ukraine: Defence Secretary Ben Wallace reveals more Kremlin troops have died in two months than the US suffered in its entire war on terror - as he sends Kyiv British armoured anti-aircraft vehicles
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...3VSGSRm29E
(04-25-2022, 11:14 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Just heard Jennifer Griffin, who is in Ukraine, on the radio reporting that huge amounts of heavy and more lethal U.S. and NATO weapons are pouring into the country. I’ll give Biden credit for responding with the amount of military aid he’s authorized.
Griffin also brought up another good point in that while NATO was criticized (and held accountable by the bad orange man) for shirking their financial responsibilities, they’re digging deep now that the Russian bear is on their doorstep. Hopefully they’ve learned a lesson.
What Trump did with NATO was ham-handed but long overdue.
But I don't think he meant to do it!
I think the man honestly thought that NATO owed the US money. Like a bill was due or something. They were supposed to use 2% of their own money to buy weapons from themselves or any other NATO country, not necessarily from us.
It's all good though. They're closer to messing their treaty obligations and we're all better off for it.
(04-26-2022, 09:16 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 11:14 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Just heard Jennifer Griffin, who is in Ukraine, on the radio reporting that huge amounts of heavy and more lethal U.S. and NATO weapons are pouring into the country. I’ll give Biden credit for responding with the amount of military aid he’s authorized.
Griffin also brought up another good point in that while NATO was criticized (and held accountable by the bad orange man) for shirking their financial responsibilities, they’re digging deep now that the Russian bear is on their doorstep. Hopefully they’ve learned a lesson.
What Trump did with NATO was ham-handed but long overdue.
But I don't think he meant to do it!
I think the man honestly thought that NATO owed the US money. Like a bill was due or something. They were supposed to use 2% of their own money to buy weapons from themselves or any other NATO country, not necessarily from us.
It's all good though. They're closer to messing their treaty obligations and we're all better off for it.
Why do you just post your opinions as if they are facts?
He never said NATO owed the US money. He just said the USA has footed the bill for [BLEEP] decades and no one else gave a [BLEEP]. Which is true.
(04-27-2022, 09:19 AM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ] (04-26-2022, 09:16 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]What Trump did with NATO was ham-handed but long overdue.
But I don't think he meant to do it!
I think the man honestly thought that NATO owed the US money. Like a bill was due or something. They were supposed to use 2% of their own money to buy weapons from themselves or any other NATO country, not necessarily from us.
It's all good though. They're closer to messing their treaty obligations and we're all better off for it.
Why do you just post your opinions as if they are facts?
He never said NATO owed the US money. He just said the USA has footed the bill for [BLEEP] decades and no one else gave a [BLEEP]. Which is true.
Statements of fact don't begin with "I don't think" or "I think".
Statements beginning with those words are clearly opinions.
But here are Trump's actual words in 2018, addressing leaders of other NATO countries at a meeting in Europe. "Frankly, many countries owe us a tremendous amount of money for many years back, where they're delinquent, as far as I'm concerned...". I'm cutting the quote of early, but the verb "owe" is used one more time. So this opinion of mine is based in fact.
(04-27-2022, 01:07 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-27-2022, 09:19 AM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you just post your opinions as if they are facts?
He never said NATO owed the US money. He just said the USA has footed the bill for [BLEEP] decades and no one else gave a [BLEEP]. Which is true.
Statements of fact don't begin with "I don't think" or "I think".
Statements beginning with those words are clearly opinions.
But here are Trump's actual words in 2018, addressing leaders of other NATO countries at a meeting in Europe. "Frankly, many countries owe us a tremendous amount of money for many years back, where they're delinquent, as far as I'm concerned...". I'm cutting the quote of early, but the verb "owe" is used one more time. So this opinion of mine is based in fact.
They owe us a [BLEEP] ton of money for the Marshall Plan, not that we'd ever try to collect. They owe us a lot for what we've paid for over the last 70 years, again, not that we'd try to collect. We'd be happy if they just foot the bill for their own defense.