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(02-04-2022, 02:13 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 12:33 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]You mean take a risk on a failed head coach? I'll never get this line of thinking.

Yeah, why would we take a chance on a retread coach when they've won 15 of the last 20 Super Bowls?  What could they be thinking?

BTW, of the five exceptions to the rule where a coach was good enough to win a Super Bowl while still in his first stint as head coach, one of them happens to be named "Doug Pederson".

I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.
(02-04-2022, 01:12 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Many do not know but Pederson was a Journeyman QB for years with the NFL.  Andy Reid was his coach at one point.

In addition to Andy Reid, he was also coached by Don Shula and Mike Holmgren.  For those new to the country, those three legendary coaches rank #1, #5 and #16 in career wins in NFL history.

(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:13 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, why would we take a chance on a retread coach when they've won 15 of the last 20 Super Bowls?  What could they be thinking?

BTW, of the five exceptions to the rule where a coach was good enough to win a Super Bowl while still in his first stint as head coach, one of them happens to be named "Doug Pederson".

I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

First, no one is guaranteeing a Super Bowl.  

Second, your facts are mixed up.  Six different coaches have been to the Super Bowl with two different teams.  I don't have time at the moment to fact check your other statistic.

Third, if you don't think winning 75% of Super Bowls over the last two decades is better than winning 25% of Super Bowls, I'm not sure you are good at statistics.
(02-04-2022, 12:30 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]A nice safe hire.  It's what we need.

We can't afford to take a risk on an untried coach.

Agreed.

Although i was hoping for Leftwich personally... Pederson or Caldwell were the guys we needed right now to bring some stability and professionalism back into this team. Also love that he's reached out to Trevor so early on and Trev seems to give him a full endorsement.
(02-04-2022, 02:26 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 01:12 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Many do not know but Pederson was a Journeyman QB for years with the NFL.  Andy Reid was his coach at one point.

In addition to Andy Reid, he was also coached by Don Shula and Mike Holmgren.  For those new to the country, those three legendary coaches rank #1, #5 and #16 in career wins in NFL history.

(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

First, no one is guaranteeing a Super Bowl.  

Second, your facts are mixed up.  Six different coaches have been to the Super Bowl with two different teams.  I don't have time at the moment to fact check your other statistic.

Third, if you don't think winning 75% of Super Bowls over the last two decades is better than winning 25% of Super Bowls, I'm not sure you are good at statistics.

My facts aren't mixed up, maybe you misunderstand, but I said it clearly.

Only 2 SB WINNING HCs ever made it back to another SB with a NEW TEAM as HC.

Only 7 out of 15 of those SB winning coaches had winning seasons with their new teams as a HC.

I didn't say anything about coaches making it to another SB, I said WINNING SUPER BOWL HCs.

As far as your "Third" comment. What are you even talking about? Are you trying to bring Belichick into this conversation or something? He has nothing to do with this conversation if that's the case.
(02-04-2022, 01:09 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]We need Spielman in the door ASAP, and we need to hire an OC that has not been rumored thus far because yuck.

I think DC and Speilman are more important than the OC right now.... Pederson can help the OC if he's struggling but he is not a defensive guy and he needs someone above Baalke to hold him accountable. without them, the offense won't matter at all and Trevor's career will be over or continuing on another team.
(02-04-2022, 01:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 01:22 AM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure i'd call Vrabel a scrub.

(02-04-2022, 01:24 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Yea Vrabel wasn't a scrub but I see your point.  I like the fact Pederson has QB experience in the league.


Point taken.

Amended statement:  Vrabel was not a scrub...not a Hall of fame starter, either.

It seems to me that the best players very rarely make the best coaches, in any sport. Players who had limited ability but understand how to work and maximize your potential are better coaches IMO.
I'm so freaking happy we made the smart choice over the emotional mistake with Byron.


good job jags.
(02-04-2022, 03:13 AM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 01:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Point taken.

Amended statement:  Vrabel was not a scrub...not a Hall of fame starter, either.

It seems to me that the best players very rarely make the best coaches, in any sport. Players who had limited ability but understand how to work and maximize your potential are better coaches IMO.

i think you're right about this... tends to be the way things end up going.
(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:13 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, why would we take a chance on a retread coach when they've won 15 of the last 20 Super Bowls?  What could they be thinking?

BTW, of the five exceptions to the rule where a coach was good enough to win a Super Bowl while still in his first stint as head coach, one of them happens to be named "Doug Pederson".

I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

The problem with this stat is that there is hidden bias in the stat. In the modern FA era the only coaches to take another job after winning a SB with a different team are:

Jimmy Johnson (Dallas, Miami)
George Siefert (San Fran, Carolina)
Mike Holmgren (Green Bay, Seattle)
Mike Shanahan (Denver, Washington)
Dick Vermeil (St. Louis, Kansas City)
John Gruden (Tampa, Raiders)
Mike McCarthy (Green Bay, Dallas)

The common denominator between most of those teams is that the SB winning team often had the prime HOF QB with the coach. Well past his prime Marino, Beuerlein, Haselback, David Carr, and even Prescott don't compare at all to the Montana, Young, Aikman, Farve, past-his prime Elway, Warner, and Rodger.

Only Gruden got a title with a non-HOF QB, and one of the greatest defenses in the past 20 years built by Tony Dungy. 

Pederson won his title with Nick Foles and Carson Wentz. Neither will ever sniff the HOF. If Trevor Lawrence can live up to even part of his draft hype he should eclipse both of those guys, and the Jaguars will be okay.

Even forgoing that, all those coaches had way more success in those 2nd stints than the Jaguars have had since Coughlin and JDR. I totally understand the ideal plan is win a title while T-Law is on a rookie deal, but the whole point is develop him and set up a franchise mindset and base for the entire team that the Jaguars really have not had since JDR.

You can always let Pederson go if he rights the ship but seems to plateau. It's not like there is only ever 1 great offensive mind/play caller in a generation. Just in the past few years there has been Kyle Shanahan, McVay, and LaFleur. Plus there like 3 guys in this cycle being billed as the next great play caller. There will be more guys with similar potential if needed in a few years.
(02-04-2022, 03:15 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I'm so freaking happy we made the smart choice over the emotional mistake with Byron.


good job jags.

We HAVE to come away with a solid DC & Speil for EVP though.... we need some pull on Baalke and some support for Dougy on the defense. 

Fangio and Speil would be epic tomorrow....

(02-04-2022, 03:19 AM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

The problem with this stat is that there is hidden bias in the stat. In the modern FA era the only coaches to take another job after winning a SB with a different team are:

Jimmy Johnson (Dallas, Miami)
Mike Holmgren (Green Bay, Seattle)
Mike Shanahan (Denver, Washington)
Dick Vermeil (St. Louis, Kansas City)
John Gruden (Tampa, Raiders)
Mike McCarthy (Green Bay, Dallas)

The common denominator between most of those teams is that the SB winning team often had the prime HOF QB with the coach. Well past his prime Marino, Haselback, David Carr, and even Prescott don't compare at all to the Aikman, Farve, past-his prime Elway, Warner, and Rodger.

Only Gruden got a title with a non-HOF QB, and one of the greatest defenses in the past 20 years built by Tony Dungy. 

Pederson won his title with Nick Foles and Carson Wentz. Neither will ever sniff the HOF. If Trevor Lawrence can live up to even part of his draft hype he should eclipse both of those guys, and the Jaguars will be okay.

Even forgoing that, all those coaches had way more success in those 2nd stints than the Jaguars have since Coughlin and JDR. I totally understand the ideal plan is win a title while T-Law is on a rookie deal, but the whole point it develop him and set up a franchise mindset and base for the entire team that the Jaguars really have not had since JDR. You can always let Pederson go if he rights the ship but seems to find a plateau. 

It's not like there is only ever 1 great offensive mind/play caller in a generation. Just in the past few years there has been Kyle Shanahan, McVay, and LaFleur. Plus there like 3 guys in this cycle being billed as the next great play caller. There will be more guys with similar potential if needed in a few years.

Agreed. Great take man!

I also am envisioning this is a potential stop gap hire to one of those up and comers your talking about. 

If nothing else, Doug gives us stability and allows us to go young in 3 years when we are in better shape and not such a dumpster fire.
(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:13 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, why would we take a chance on a retread coach when they've won 15 of the last 20 Super Bowls?  What could they be thinking?

BTW, of the five exceptions to the rule where a coach was good enough to win a Super Bowl while still in his first stint as head coach, one of them happens to be named "Doug Pederson".

I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

Seriously Dwight.  You need to lower your expectations.

Let's stop being the worst team in the league before worrying about a coach who can give us a winning season, playoffs or a superbowl.
(02-04-2022, 03:35 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:20 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]I already told you that only 2 HCs in NFL history who have won the SB, have made it back to the SB with a new team as HC.

Only 7 of 15 of them have had winning seasons with their new teams.

Now you need to factor in that we're now including the most dysfunctional Franchise in NFL history into the mix. History isn't on our side here.

Seriously Dwight.  You need to lower your expectations.

Let's stop being the worst team in the league before worrying about a coach who can give us a winning season, playoffs or a superbowl.

I was just speaking history facts. I wasn't claiming playoffs or superbowl at all, merely just saying the reality.

With that said, people are preaching about him being a SB winner etc etc, so we better get results and it better happen fairly soon. Somebody as accomplished as Pederson seems to be (in many peoples words) shouldn't take 2-3 years for results. We need to see real progress in year 1 and real serious progress in year 2.

6 or 7 wins in year 1 isn't asking much from a SB winning coach who's suppose to be so good and experienced.
Twitter proposal by someone on my timeline... doesn't look bad except Press Taylor.

OC: Matt Nagy
DC: Vic Fangio
QB: Press Taylor
WR: Keenan McCardell
RB: Anthony Lynn
OL: Mike Munchak
TE: Clancy Barone
(02-04-2022, 03:06 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 02:26 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]In addition to Andy Reid, he was also coached by Don Shula and Mike Holmgren.  For those new to the country, those three legendary coaches rank #1, #5 and #16 in career wins in NFL history.


First, no one is guaranteeing a Super Bowl.  

Second, your facts are mixed up.  Six different coaches have been to the Super Bowl with two different teams.  I don't have time at the moment to fact check your other statistic.

Third, if you don't think winning 75% of Super Bowls over the last two decades is better than winning 25% of Super Bowls, I'm not sure you are good at statistics.

My facts aren't mixed up, maybe you misunderstand, but I said it clearly.

Only 2 SB WINNING HCs ever made it back to another SB with a NEW TEAM as HC.

Only 7 out of 15 of those SB winning coaches had winning seasons with their new teams as a HC.

I didn't say anything about coaches making it to another SB, I said WINNING SUPER BOWL HCs.

As far as your "Third" comment. What are you even talking about? Are you trying to bring Belichick into this conversation or something? He has nothing to do with this conversation if that's the case.

(Emphasis added)

As to the point in bold, this is still vaguely worded.

Do you mean to say 2 coaches who won Super Bowls (as a general proposition) went to another Super Bowl with a subsequent team, or do you specifically mean coaches that won Super Bowls at their first coaching stop went to a SB at their subsequent team?

If it is the former interpretation, that is false.

Shula went to a Super Bowl with the Colts (SB III) went to the Dolphins and won two Super Bowls (VII and VIII).

Andy Reid last SB XXXIX with the Eagles but then won the Super Bowl with the Chiefs.

Bill Parcells and Mike Holmgren went to Super Bowls with two different teams, as did Dick Vermeil, John Fox (Carolina and Denver) and Dan Reeves (though he didn't win as a HC).

If it is the latter interpretation (they had to win a Super Bowl at their first stop to satisfy your condition), unless I have completely missed your point/misconstrued your argument, I don't understand why you would have that as a condition or use it as a negative against Pederson.

As a general rule, coaches who reach the Super Bowl are the overwhelming exception rather than the rule.  Most coaches do not reach the Super Bowl, period.  Even if they lose the Super Bowl they reach, it's still quite the accomplishment to get there, and with very few exceptions, it speaks volumes as to the job they did at least that year.

But this condition you have placed is troublesome on other levels, too.

Were Shula and Reid any less successful as coaches in Miami and KC because they didn't meet that condition?

Does a coach winning a Super bowl in his initial stop somehow make him less viable as a head coach for a subsequent team?  

If so, to what do you attribute that?

As I indicated abve, it's hard for a coach to reach a Super Bowl with a team.

Just about everything has to go right.

They have to have the right ownership, management, and scouting departments.

They have to be relatively injury free during the year and have a favorable schedule.  They have to have the right guys on the rosters.  They have to catch the right teams at the right times.  They have to get the right officiating calls, etc.

To have that happen in two different locations is a lot to ask.  Because all of those factors do NOT fall into place the second time does not make the coach somehow lesser for it.

Is it possible that a coach that wins a Super Bowl in one spot somehow become less driven to succeed at his second?  In theory, yes.

Is it possible that a coach that wins a Super Bowl in one spot will find that by the time he reaches his second team, the league may have adjusted to his schemes?  In theory, yes.

But even assuming both of those factors play out, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have anything to offer the second team. 

If all Pederson does here is develop Trevor Lawrence in to the best QB he can be, but never reaches the Super Bowl, his tenure here could be construed on some level as being successful.

But I think Pederson could do more than that.  He was credited with changing the culture in a Philadelphia team that had never won a Super Bowl.  I believe he can definitely do that here.

If your larger point is to suggest Pederson's past success is not guaranteed here, then I can agree with that as a general proposition.  The Jauars still have the clear obligation to put all the right places in place for him to succeed.  The journey doesn't end with Pederson.  He's still part of the beginning.

But if you are making the point about Super Bowl winning coaches not being as successful with teams after leaving their Super Bowl winning teams as a way of knocking Pederson as a coach, I do not subscribe to that theory.
If all Pederson does here is develop Trevor Lawrence in to the best QB he can be, but never reaches the Super Bowl, his tenure here could be construed on some level as being successful.

But I think Pederson could do more than that. He was credited with changing the culture in a Philadelphia team that had never won a Super Bowl. I believe he can definitely do that here.

If your larger point is to suggest Pederson's past success is not guaranteed here, then I can agree with that as a general proposition. The Jaguars still have the clear obligation to put all the right places in place for him to succeed. The journey doesn't end with Pederson. He's still part of the beginning.[quote="TheeKB" pid='1210863' dateline='1556340313']
[quote="Pick 6" pid='1210819' dateline='1556337278']


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Indeed. i think your spot on here brother!
(02-04-2022, 03:53 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2022, 03:35 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]Seriously Dwight.  You need to lower your expectations.

Let's stop being the worst team in the league before worrying about a coach who can give us a winning season, playoffs or a superbowl.

I was just speaking history facts. I wasn't claiming playoffs or superbowl at all, merely just saying the reality.

With that said, people are preaching about him being a SB winner etc etc, so we better get results and it better happen fairly soon. Somebody as accomplished as Pederson seems to be (in many peoples words) shouldn't take 2-3 years for results. We need to see real progress in year 1 and real serious progress in year 2.

6 or 7 wins in year 1 isn't asking much from a SB winning coach who's suppose to be so good and experienced.
This clarifies your stance a great deal for me.  Thanks,

With the above in mind, I agree it is important to put his hiring in context before setting expectations.

He is coming to a team that has finished in last place in the division the last four years, and finished with the worst record in football in each of the last two years.

This team still lacks talent in a lot of areas.

The team needs to learn how to win.

It'll take time to institute the culture change, bring in talented players who will not only fit his schemes, but be able to win individual match ups during games.

I am confident in his ability to assemble a good staff here.  I am also confident in his ability to change the culture and develop Trevor Lawrence into the QB we all think he can be.

I am confident he will take the TE position seriously...perhaps the first Jaguars coach since JDR to do so.

But it's not going to happen overnight.  Because we have botched the drafts before this year and because we are changing schemes (possibly returning to a 4-3)
(02-04-2022, 03:59 AM)MJonesD_32 Wrote: [ -> ]Twitter proposal by someone on my timeline... doesn't look bad except Press Taylor.

OC: Matt Nagy
DC: Vic Fangio
QB: Press Taylor
WR: Keenan McCardell
RB: Anthony Lynn
OL: Mike Munchak
TE: Clancy Barone

Jim Schwartz was Pederson's defensive coordinator in Philadelphia.  He is currently in Tennessee listed as a "senior defensive assistant"...not even a coordinator.

He could be named defensive coordinator here and Tennessee couldn't block the move because it would be a promotion.

If Schwartz were brought in instead of Fangio, it would be interesting to see the schemes he would implement.  He comes from the Ryan/Fisher blitz heavy 46 school of defenses, but the last year or two he's been in Tennessee where they are running a 3-4.

Wound he run some sort of hybrid scheme?  Mostly a 46 type with some 3-4 elements?

Would it be as blitz heavy?

If it's mostly a man scheme, what happens with Tyson Campbell, who did not start to thrive until the team switched to zone?

Of course, if we brought in Fangio, we could certainly do worse for defensive coordinator.

I would love Munchack as OL coach, though I don't know how much of a scheme fit he would be.

I would love Keenan McCardell back here as WR coach.  I wonder if Spielman might push for him if he comes here.
While I think the search went horribly and I feel bad for Byron and Wilson, this is who I wanted as my #1 choice for this team at this time. If we had a little more talent and didn't have a toxic snake of a GM(who seemingly can't be fired) I would love to have seen Byron hired. He can now go back to OC the Bucs and likely goes into a better situation next year as a HC candidate.

Let's all hope this time, it works for us!
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