(02-04-2022, 11:41 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (02-04-2022, 08:37 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]That's the whole point.
It's never been purely about merit.
How else can you explain Josh McCown, whose only coaching experience is on the high school level, actually getting a SECOND NFL head coaching interview?!?
For over a decade, African Americans weren't allowed in the NFL at all as a matter of policy. For several decades to follow, they weren't allowed to play certain positions like QB, C and MLB, under the rationale that blacks were not equipped to handle the more cerebral positions.
As a society, we aren't too far removed from a time where race dictated where you were able to live, where you were able to be after sunset, into what doorway you could enter and exit, whether you could get healthcare at the nearest hospital, where you went to school, who you could marry, what jobs you could hold, where you sat on a bus, what water fountains you could drink from, whether you were allowed to vote or sit on a jury. The racism that created those comprehensive LAWS, policies and practices persists today, manifesting itself in myriad ways that triggers the very outrage you are complaining about.
When I first joined the Jaguars.com board, I literally argued against the entire board on this very topic. I was quite familiar with the subject matter, as I graduated from law school just a couple of years before, and my Upper Level Writing requirement was on this subject.
Cyrus Mehri and Johnnie Cochran (yes that one) threatened an employment discrimination action against the NFL and its member clubs for the failure to hire black coaches. The immediate, reflective reaction to that was aversion to the idea NFL teams would somehow be forced to hire unqualified minorities. Interestingly, a few months later, the Jaguars hired Jack Del Rio to be their next head coach.
At the time, he had all of ONE (1) year as an NFL defensive coordinator, and maybe 6 years as a position coach. At the time, there were numerous other candidates, black and white, who had way more experience as coordinators and coaches than JDR. Yet when he was hired, there was universal celebration. People gleefully echoed the sentiment he expressed in the pres conference that "there would be no more 3 yards and a cloud of dust." Yet these same people were dead silent about JDR's comparative lack of qualifications. As a group, the people on this board associated a lack of qualifications to black coaching candidates, but did not subject guys like JDR to the same scrutiny. He was given the the unquestioned presumption of qualification they denied to the hypothetical black coaching candidate without having any idea what qualifications that unnamed coach might actually have. When I called them on it, nobody had anything remotely resembling an explanation for the double standards.
Whether you think this double standard is the end result of conscious or unconscious bias, the end result is the same. Sadly, NFL owners are not exempt from these biases, and neither are black/latino/Asian coaches. This disparity has state and federal law implications, to say nothing about ramifications in the lives of the coaches involved.
I disagree in most cases. Sure there are going to be a few racist coaches but overall I believe the owners want to win above all else. If there was a black coach who was above other candidates I believe in most cases they would be hired.
There hasn't been any female, Asian, Indian, and many other types of head coaches either. It's not because racist bias in most case.
I don't believe in the whole critical race theory rhetoric.
(02-04-2022, 11:40 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]This can't be done as one it creates levels so it takes to long to move up. The second thing is the coaches have to be a good fit personally and be able to work with the team.
Pederson got himself fired because he wasn't a fit with the GM and the GM had more control with the owner.
Leftwich didn't get hired because Khan isn't going to fire Baalke or wasn't just going to hire whoever Leftwich wanted without an interview process.
The NFL is going to have a bigger problem coming soon. Look at who is getting interviews now. Younger coordinators who may or may not played the game. If they played football, they usually weren't good enough to play much in college. They worked as unpaid assistants, took classes, GAs, etc. They went wherever to learn how to create an off/Def.
These are not your normal past NFL coaches who were jocks themselves usually. The game has moved past that and you can't force teams to hire coaches based on skin color.
Even though the majority of the players are minorities, there are a lot of environment and societal norms that make it a small chance that minority will have the same resume as the coaches getting hired now.
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Agreed. Hiring anybody based on skin tone is pure racist both ways. Maybe there aren't that many African American candidates currently either want the job, not qualified or experienced enough, or applied for head coaching jobs right now.
Saying it's all racism is a complete load of crap.
I'm not getting into coaches being racist. I'm talking about the decisionmakers who hire and fire coaches that have produced the disparate impact that is the subject of this suit. For the purposes of clarification, "Disparate treatment is explicit, purposeful racism (i.e. Blacks need not apply). "Disparate impact" involves presumably race neutral policies that have discriminatory effect. For the purposes of this discussion, I'll accept the presumption that owners want to win above all else. However, if owners have paradigms that, wittingly or not, lead them to conclude minority coaches are less qualified to produce the desired winning, then the disparate impact will be produced.
As to your belief that a hypothetical black coach above all else would be hired in most cases:
1. Sherm Lewis was OC of an offense that went to back to back Super Bowls in the 1990s, that produced an MVP QB and was never hired. Rich Kotite got hired twice but Lewis never got his shot. Similarly, Eric bienemy has been OC for the KC Chiefs the last four years. During that span, the Chiefs have been to four straight AFC championships, went to two Suoer Bowls, won a world title with one of the most explosive offenses the league has seen. He hasn't been hired. Meanwhile, Josh McDaniels was OC for the Patriots, got hired in Denver, failed spectacularly, got another job offer from the Colts, accepted it then backed out, and now is on his third head coaching opportunity. At the same time, Josh McCown is working on his second interview with the Texans without any NFL coaching experience.
This is from CBS Sports...
Quote:The Houston Texans are zeroing in on their new head coach, and a former NFL quarterback is getting the first opportunity to showcase why he deserves the job. Per NFL Network's Tom Pelissero and Mike Garafolo, the Texans will interview Josh McCown again for their vacant head coaching position -- the first-known interview with a candidate for a second time. McCown is "all-in" on becoming the Texans head coach, unlike when he interviewed last year and wasn't ready to commit to the job.
McCown was on the Texans' short list of reported interviews for their head coaching vacancy, joining former Dolphins coach Brian Flores, Chargers offensive coordinator Joe Lombardi, Eagles defensive coordinator Jonathan Gannon and Florida Atlantic University assistant Hines Ward. Gannon had interviews for the Broncos job (which went to Nathaniel Hackett) and the Vikings (yet to be filled). Flores has interviewed for the Giants and Bears job (which went to Matt Eberflus), and the Saints also plan to interview him. McCown is viewed as a serious candidate for the Texans job, per Pelissero.
McCown's only official coaching experience came in 2019, when he served as QBs coach for his son's Myers Park High School team in North Carolina -- a role he held while employed by the Eagles as Carson Wentz's backup. Long lauded for his mentoring as a veteran reserve, he's been linked to several high-profile openings since then.
(emphasis added)
In these cases emphasized above, it's clear the African American candidate with the clearly superior resume did NOT get the job over the lesser qualified white candidate. Eberflus had no head coaching experience, and he got the position over Flores, who has three years as a coach, two winning seasons. The McCown example is even more egregious. He's getting a 2nd interview with the Texans with only one year of coaching experience-on the high school level....part time...back in 2019. Merit was absolutely meaningless in him getting that opportunity. In this coaching cycle, nine job openings have come up. Six coaches have been hired-none of whom were black. In at least one documented instance in the remaining three openings, more qualified black candidates (or for that matter non candidates) are not getting the same consideration as McCown.
2. But implicit in your statement is that black coaches would have to be "above all else" to get the job in most instances. Aside from that being demonstrably not true, what happens in the more likely scenario where there are two or more candidates comparably and similarly qualified? What we've been seeing in the overwhelming majority of cases is the white coach gets the benefit of the doubt.
As for the lack of female, Indian (dots and/or feathers) coaches, I agree that lack exists. However, I submit there aren't many women, Indians, etc from those groups who are playing football and staying involved long enough to develop into viable coaching candidates. I've only known maybe three Asian players in the NFL (former Patriot and Jaguar Eugene Chung, former Cardinals PK John Lee, who strangely had a weird phobia about kicking on CBS, and the current kicker on the Falcons). There is no such lack of African Americans involved in the game. Similarly, I would not expect many African American coaches in hockey, because there aren't too many African Americans playing the sport.
In closing, I've no doubt you don't believe in the whole critical race theory thing. Despite the availability of supporting evidence, there are people who deny the holocaust, who believe there was no racist motivation to the South's actions during the Civil War, who believe that the Earth is flat, that Americans never landed on the moon, and any number of things widely accepted as fact by those sufficiently inquisitive.
(02-05-2022, 10:43 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2022, 10:39 AM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]I will be surprised if anyone else makes it to this front office. Baalke won his power play and the ownership of this team sucks. Basically Doug caved and now he gets a bunch of torn ACLs and Baalke smartest man in the room nonsense. He gets a leaker and a back stabber because he wasn't as hot a candidate as he thought he would be this year.
Khan sucks but I will hope for the best again. And then again and again. I wonder how many more dang years the dude has on his GM Contract.
From jaguars.com
The Jacksonville Jaguars will formally introduce Doug Pederson as the team's head coach during a press conference at TIAA Bank Field on Saturday, Feb. 5 at noon ET. Owner Shad Khan and General Manager Trent Baalke will join Pederson. The livestream will begin with Senior Reporter and Editor J.P. Shadrick hosting pre-press conference coverage at 11:50 AM ET as well as post-press conference coverage immediately following.
I am so thrilled
I still think Spielman comes.
Like I said yesterday, they’re giving Pederson his limelight today and then Spielman will have his soon.
We ahould get a better grasp of what will happen in about an hour, when the Jaguars have their press conference announcing the Pederson hire.
It's my deepest hope Spielman's hiring is announced too.