(06-07-2023, 01:29 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I do not envy Mark Lamping in what he’ll have to encounter during his “community conversations”.
"HoW dOeS tHiS fIx MuH cRapPeR?!?"
"H'wut AbOuT CrImE!?!?"
"Ya'LL GuNNa STaHp PLaYin's CrOss Lantic' Sea in LoNdON!??"
(06-07-2023, 01:29 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I do not envy Mark Lamping in what he’ll have to encounter during his “community conversations”.
They will treat them like any other community meeting. They will let people speak so they feel heard and still do what they want. It's just a big waste of time and money to try and show the city council the people are on the side of building it.
They should have player appearances and autograph signings at the meetings.
(06-07-2023, 01:29 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I do not envy Mark Lamping in what he’ll have to encounter during his “community conversations”.
Me either. Especially if he tries to push the give us this money and we are going to borrow your team for 2 years. He can help himself not trying to have his cake and eat it too. I have been a season ticket holder since day 1, they even have my name on the wall there. They can have the money or the team not both.
I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
(06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
That's fair. I think it has open areas so a breeze should just cut right on through. Like a strong fart in the middle of the night that bleeds through your favorite blanket. No worries. It's science!
(06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but do you really think they'd pay engineering and design firms to come up with something like this (in Florida) without baking that into the plan?
I can't imagine they'd be so shortsighted.
And I wouldn't make such assumptions based on drawings.
(06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
Florida Building Code will take care of it.
(06-07-2023, 12:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 12:16 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Read the comments. There are some stunningly stupid people in this city.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2023/06/...sentation/
Skimmed through it. A lot of the argument is that you're just throwing a nice diamond in a turd tainted punch bowl because downtown Jacksonville will remain as it is. Which is kind of fair. I don't go downtown for anything unless it's a sports game, concert or some kind of here and there event worth the drive.
I am curious what the cost would be to build a new stadium (this is same exact concept) and relocate it somewhere more accessible in Jacksonville. I know we'll lose the river view and everything else it entails though. I do see what you're saying though. Seems like most people commenting have zero faith in the team being worth a lick to keep the seats filled. Some fans are questioning why just 62K seats for the price tag? They didn't see the part I guess where it can expand up to 72K for CFB.
Which, that part is interesting as well. Can't the current stadium hold well more than that figure for the Florida / Georgia game? I thought it was close to six figures if I am not mistaken. This is going to be rough man. I know Deegan claims to be a lifelong fan and she has the pictures and pedigree to prove that, but, good luck on getting everybody onboard here in this city.
If we lose this team. It'll be years before the NFL gives us another chance. I also don't understand the logic about "Well, what's the point if he's playing games in London". You really think Khan is going to put this concept out there and spend what looks like a little over or close to 10% of his overall net worth at over $1B for it sit here on the river and collect dust? It's not just about football with that stadium. There's other attractions for that design.
I have a younger brother just like some of these people. I turned 35 this year. He'll be 29 in July. He doesn't care for the NFL since the woke movement a few years ago. He also lives on the north side of town and has had the same water and septic issues and [BLEEP] that a lot of folks are complaining about now for fixing. He doesn't see the point in paying taxes towards something like this when the city in general needs work.
I would personally like to see public transportation, maybe skyline style railways added across the entire city to make ease of access better for everybody. Being able to bridge downtown JAX somehow to JAX beaches and bypassing the streets, traffic, etc. That would be awesome for this city but I understand that's probably a mountain of a project with herculean costs and efforts that would need to be factored in. Would be nice though.
The city definitely does needs a lot of infrastructure development. However, the taxes to fund the stadium are mainly from hotel/bed fees. Also, no one will vote to increased taxes in any capacity to fix any of the infrastructure issues you mention.
Than means for the city to get those tax dollars they have to increase the businesses and population in the area to increase the tax base. To do that you have to sell the city and market to people and businesses outside of Jax. Waiting for natural progression from 2nd-3rd generation Jax residents or such to do that will take way too long to net the results you are looking for. Also, people and families are way more willing to move/relocate now than they did 20-30 years ago, because of job market and ease of doing so. So the city can't really bet on 20-40 year generational cycles playing out in their favor.
Having a giant billboard for the city like a NFL football team that should be playing well and in the playoffs is ideal to get the city name out there. As is having the team having the spotlight game in London for a game every year to get international recognition for the city. No it will not happen quickly no matter what strategy is used. But there is has to be a strategy. Just waiting and hoping people/businesses outside the region will notice Jacksonville will not work. Honestly, I know more people who immediately jump to to Jacksonville, NC rather than Jacksonville, FL when I say the city name around NYC and New England.
Also the city has to show they ware willing to invest in projects like the shipyards and the stadium to bring to sell to other businesses that they should relocate here or start a secondary site here. Kind of what happened for Indianapolis due to Peyton Manning. Though that city is older, has more national pedigree, and name recognition being the largest city in that state. That only means the process will be harder for Jacksonville. And lots of cities screwed up their opportunities unlike Indy.
The process is circle, and you have to start it somewhere. Or it just never happens, and Jax will never become the city you want it to become.
(06-07-2023, 03:01 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but do you really think they'd pay engineering and design firms to come up with something like this (in Florida) without baking that into the plan?
I can't imagine they'd be so shortsighted.
And I wouldn't make such assumptions based on drawings.
Initial renderings are often created before actual engineers are brought on to tell them what can and cannot be done. Especially these are superficial renderings. Not like like the rendering they actually use to fully plan out the project with full 3D detail.
Plus I've pointed out before the Sofi stadium has already have a lot a issues with rain and wind, that should have been predicted for before hand.
(06-07-2023, 03:01 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
Florida Building Code will take care of it.
Oh I know the final building will be. I'm just tempering expectations a bit. It definitely looks fabulous, but you know how many people will want exactly this and then get pissy when they modify the designs and get something different.
(06-07-2023, 03:13 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 12:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Skimmed through it. A lot of the argument is that you're just throwing a nice diamond in a turd tainted punch bowl because downtown Jacksonville will remain as it is. Which is kind of fair. I don't go downtown for anything unless it's a sports game, concert or some kind of here and there event worth the drive.
I am curious what the cost would be to build a new stadium (this is same exact concept) and relocate it somewhere more accessible in Jacksonville. I know we'll lose the river view and everything else it entails though. I do see what you're saying though. Seems like most people commenting have zero faith in the team being worth a lick to keep the seats filled. Some fans are questioning why just 62K seats for the price tag? They didn't see the part I guess where it can expand up to 72K for CFB.
Which, that part is interesting as well. Can't the current stadium hold well more than that figure for the Florida / Georgia game? I thought it was close to six figures if I am not mistaken. This is going to be rough man. I know Deegan claims to be a lifelong fan and she has the pictures and pedigree to prove that, but, good luck on getting everybody onboard here in this city.
If we lose this team. It'll be years before the NFL gives us another chance. I also don't understand the logic about "Well, what's the point if he's playing games in London". You really think Khan is going to put this concept out there and spend what looks like a little over or close to 10% of his overall net worth at over $1B for it sit here on the river and collect dust? It's not just about football with that stadium. There's other attractions for that design.
I have a younger brother just like some of these people. I turned 35 this year. He'll be 29 in July. He doesn't care for the NFL since the woke movement a few years ago. He also lives on the north side of town and has had the same water and septic issues and [BLEEP] that a lot of folks are complaining about now for fixing. He doesn't see the point in paying taxes towards something like this when the city in general needs work.
I would personally like to see public transportation, maybe skyline style railways added across the entire city to make ease of access better for everybody. Being able to bridge downtown JAX somehow to JAX beaches and bypassing the streets, traffic, etc. That would be awesome for this city but I understand that's probably a mountain of a project with herculean costs and efforts that would need to be factored in. Would be nice though.
The city definitely does needs a lot of infrastructure development. However, the taxes to fund the stadium are mainly from hotel/bed fees. Also, no one will vote to increased taxes in any capacity to fix any of the infrastructure issues you mention.
Than means for the city to get those tax dollars they have to increase the businesses and population in the area to increase the tax base. To do that you have to sell the city and market to people and businesses outside of Jax. Waiting for natural progression from 2nd-3rd generation Jax residents or such to do that will take way too long to net the results you are looking for. Also, people and families are way more willing to move/relocate now than they did 20-30 years ago, because of job market and ease of doing so. So the city can't really bet on 20-40 year generational cycles playing out in their favor.
Having a giant billboard for the city like a NFL football team that should be playing well and in the playoffs is ideal to get the city name out there. As is having the team having the spotlight game in London for a game every year to get international recognition for the city. No it will not happen quickly no matter what strategy is used. But there is has to be a strategy. Just waiting and hoping people/businesses outside the region will notice Jacksonville will not work. Honestly, I know more people who immediately jump to to Jacksonville, NC rather than Jacksonville, FL when I say the city name around NYC and New England.
Also the city has to show they ware willing to invest in projects like the shipyards and the stadium to bring to sell to other businesses that they should relocate here or start a secondary site here. Kind of what happened for Indianapolis due to Peyton Manning. Though that city is older, has more national pedigree, and name recognition being the largest city in that state. That only means the process will be harder for Jacksonville. And lots of cities screwed up their opportunities unlike Indy.
The process is circle, and you have to start it somewhere. Or it just never happens, and Jax will never become the city you want it to become.
(06-07-2023, 03:01 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Not trying to be a jerk here, but do you really think they'd pay engineering and design firms to come up with something like this (in Florida) without baking that into the plan?
I can't imagine they'd be so shortsighted.
And I wouldn't make such assumptions based on drawings.
Initial renderings are often created before actual engineers are brought on to tell them what can and cannot be done. Especially these are superficial renderings. Not like like the rendering they actually use to fully plan out the project with full 3D detail.
Plus I've pointed out before the Sofi stadium has already have a lot a issues with rain and wind, that should have been predicted for before hand.
Yeah, maybe these guys aren't as smart as I think they are, but it would be insanely stupid, in my opinion, to get to this point in the process without considering these design elements. Including the issues of recent builds and renovations.
Also - yes, I wager they HAVE done a fair amount of engineering to back up these renderings.
They are literally beginning negotiations with the city to fund this thing. How would they be anywhere near accurate with cost had they not considered this?
I have experience in this area.
There were definitely engineers who quantified something sort of buildable and stable, and then accountants and planners who made estimates of dollars and weeks and months based on that. But the rendering people were off on their own. They had some interaction with the engineers before they began their effort, but no interaction with the accountants, and neither the engineer nor the accountant back-checked the renderings before they came out.
I’ll believe it when I see it started.
(06-07-2023, 03:01 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 02:52 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]I have trouble seeing how the rendering of the new building would be resilient to a hurricane.
I get that in Jax, we tend not to care because they basically never get a direct hit. But a billion dollar investment in a structure expected to last 30 years should take into consideration withstanding a CAT 2-3 hurricane at minimum.
Florida Building Code will take care of it.
One of the few times I agree with you.
(06-07-2023, 03:41 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 03:13 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]The city definitely does needs a lot of infrastructure development. However, the taxes to fund the stadium are mainly from hotel/bed fees. Also, no one will vote to increased taxes in any capacity to fix any of the infrastructure issues you mention.
Than means for the city to get those tax dollars they have to increase the businesses and population in the area to increase the tax base. To do that you have to sell the city and market to people and businesses outside of Jax. Waiting for natural progression from 2nd-3rd generation Jax residents or such to do that will take way too long to net the results you are looking for. Also, people and families are way more willing to move/relocate now than they did 20-30 years ago, because of job market and ease of doing so. So the city can't really bet on 20-40 year generational cycles playing out in their favor.
Having a giant billboard for the city like a NFL football team that should be playing well and in the playoffs is ideal to get the city name out there. As is having the team having the spotlight game in London for a game every year to get international recognition for the city. No it will not happen quickly no matter what strategy is used. But there is has to be a strategy. Just waiting and hoping people/businesses outside the region will notice Jacksonville will not work. Honestly, I know more people who immediately jump to to Jacksonville, NC rather than Jacksonville, FL when I say the city name around NYC and New England.
Also the city has to show they ware willing to invest in projects like the shipyards and the stadium to bring to sell to other businesses that they should relocate here or start a secondary site here. Kind of what happened for Indianapolis due to Peyton Manning. Though that city is older, has more national pedigree, and name recognition being the largest city in that state. That only means the process will be harder for Jacksonville. And lots of cities screwed up their opportunities unlike Indy.
The process is circle, and you have to start it somewhere. Or it just never happens, and Jax will never become the city you want it to become.
Initial renderings are often created before actual engineers are brought on to tell them what can and cannot be done. Especially these are superficial renderings. Not like like the rendering they actually use to fully plan out the project with full 3D detail.
Plus I've pointed out before the Sofi stadium has already have a lot a issues with rain and wind, that should have been predicted for before hand.
Yeah, maybe these guys aren't as smart as I think they are, but it would be insanely stupid, in my opinion, to get to this point in the process without considering these design elements. Including the issues of recent builds and renovations.
Also - yes, I wager they HAVE done a fair amount of engineering to back up these renderings.
They are literally beginning negotiations with the city to fund this thing. How would they be anywhere near accurate with cost had they not considered this?
Look at the what happened to the building sitting next to the stadium. If I was the city, I would require finished plans that have been reviewed and approved by all code enforcement and whoever else needs to approve them before voting on anything.
Then put in contingencies to the deals that the city is refunded if it ends up looking like the crap nextdoor.
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Remember all those cookie cutter baseball stadiums back in the 70's - 80's? Yeah these designs are like that only way more expensive.
(06-07-2023, 12:51 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]I see in the concept that they got rid of the pool..
Need a lazy river that flows around the stadium.. Maybe we could just rent an inner tube and float around the stadium during the games.
Still waiting on the volleyball nets..
The pools are still there. You can see the architect talk about the pools in this video.
https://youtu.be/zMiN_BqamyQ
I'm thrilled for the design, but a new stadium with more verticality would have been better. This will make me happy, though.
Finally, truly exciting things are happening in Cowford. Who'd a thunk?
(06-07-2023, 06:09 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 03:41 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, maybe these guys aren't as smart as I think they are, but it would be insanely stupid, in my opinion, to get to this point in the process without considering these design elements. Including the issues of recent builds and renovations.
Also - yes, I wager they HAVE done a fair amount of engineering to back up these renderings.
They are literally beginning negotiations with the city to fund this thing. How would they be anywhere near accurate with cost had they not considered this?
Look at the what happened to the building sitting next to the stadium. If I was the city, I would require finished plans that have been reviewed and approved by all code enforcement and whoever else needs to approve them before voting on anything.
Then put in contingencies to the deals that the city is refunded if it ends up looking like the crap nextdoor.
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Daily's Place should definitely be a bargaining chip for the city to demand quality and accuracy of final plan to execution.
They crapped the bed with that add on IMO. Original concept was something better than that.
I think it got rushed because the football staff convinced Khan they needed a flew field ASAP and they cut corners to get it done quick.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not the designers have consulted engineers and considered Hurricane durability.
(06-07-2023, 08:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 06:09 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]Look at the what happened to the building sitting next to the stadium. If I was the city, I would require finished plans that have been reviewed and approved by all code enforcement and whoever else needs to approve them before voting on anything.
Then put in contingencies to the deals that the city is refunded if it ends up looking like the crap nextdoor.
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Daily's Place should definitely be a bargaining chip for the city to demand quality and accuracy of final plan to execution.
They crapped the bed with that add on IMO. Original concept was something better than that.
I think it got rushed because the football staff convinced Khan they needed a flew field ASAP and they cut corners to get it done quick.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not the designers have consulted engineers and considered Hurricane durability.
You have some experience here. Could they upgrade the existing design to make it acoustically better? Or even respectable?