I am very impressed by this initial rendering of what could become the iconic image of Jacksonville. 10 years from now, downtown will have a very different look with the Shipyards, the Emerald Trail and the state of the art stadium.
They're preserving the video boards.
They're preserving the Bud Zone and maybe making the north end zone more like a second Bud Zone.
Looks like they're going to leave the rest of the 100 and 200 level concrete but move the aisles and openings around. Then they're going to take the 400 levels down all the way to the columns and rebuild them so the top elevation is an arc instead of a flat line. That allows them to make te roof structure a bit smaller and create new flexible seating for FL GA.
So far all of these things are no brainers in terms of creating fewer seats, less cramped seats, and most importantly a roof, at low cost.
The new garden ramps leading up to garden terraces so you basically enter between 100 and 200, that's nice, and probably not very expensive (dirt is cheap) but also not super necessary. For the LA football stadium and the Orlando soccer stadium, this "enter on the second level" was actually a cost cutting move. But on this reno it's a cost add, albeit a small one.
The outside video board idea seems like a total waste to ne. I get that they want to figure out a way to bring people there more than 9 times a year, and have them stay and spend money, but I don't think a video board adds to that. Something that might really help is integrating six day a week restaurants and bars into the terrace level. Give people the chance to have a craft brew with acoustic guitar dude or a steak dinner, or one and then the other, while they have a view of the field. Then these places also function as the stadium clubs on game day, just with a buffet menu. Same name, different service style. You can create that with just some minor changes to the layout of the club level concourses. Cheap. TV screen would be expensive and no one would come watch it.
Doing the "enter on terrace level" makes the "open the clubs 6 days a week" idea viable. I hope the do both. Just don't do the outside screen
(06-07-2023, 08:40 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 08:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Daily's Place should definitely be a bargaining chip for the city to demand quality and accuracy of final plan to execution.
They crapped the bed with that add on IMO. Original concept was something better than that.
I think it got rushed because the football staff convinced Khan they needed a flew field ASAP and they cut corners to get it done quick.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not the designers have consulted engineers and considered Hurricane durability.
You have some experience here. Could they upgrade the existing design to make it acoustically better? Or even respectable?
They could definitely make Daily's Place less acoustically horrible by treating a number of reflective surfaces with various coatings and mounted diffusion panels. It's a pricey endeavor in a space with open air elements. But do-able.
Spreading satellite speakers and smaller arrays of speakers to the challenged areas of the room is another solution when two giant arrays create too much reflection in a large space. It's pricey to link them all and get the satellites timed/delayed perfectly with the main arrays, but it is definitely doable.
IIRC - the overall look of the exterior was originally a very different concept than what we ended up with as well.
(06-07-2023, 09:37 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/JStCyrTV/status/1666612203405885442
2 years no football downtown....
Taxslayer bowl year 1 --- 30,000,000 impact
Taxslayer bowl year 2 --- 30,000,000 impact
Florida Georgia year 1 --- 33,000.000 impact
Florida Georgia year 2 --- 33,000.000 impact
Jag year 1 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Jag year 2 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Total ----------------------- 186,000,000
Additionally, all current stadium employees, consessions, grounds, mantenance, parking, security etc wave goodbye and good luck for the next 2 years.
Team travel expenses 8 additional games gotta be quite the expense.
Local fans lose 2 prime years of our QB's career after enduring many, many, many years of not having one.
Taxslayer link below. You can get each year of the Gator bowl off the City of Jax website as they track it in pretty good detail. I used 33 million as they vary between 30 and 35. The last link is other losses not included above.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/busin...mic-impact
/15741455007/
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opini...932982007/
(06-07-2023, 09:37 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/JStCyrTV/status/1666612203405885442
He says the price tag for playing games in downtown Jacksonville during construction is two more years of construction time and $190 million more dollars. That's to preserve two years worth of NFL games.
Preseason doesn't count, 7 games one year and 8 games the next gives 15 games if no home playoff games. Be super optimistic and say 18 games. Then you have two FL GA games and 2 gator bowls. Assuming each NFL game brings in 10,000 out of town visitors and each CFL game brings in 70,000 out of town visitors, that's over $400 per visiting butt in seat. That sounds like a horrendous investment for the city to make. The visitors will not spend that much money when they visit.
Another way to look at the number is it changes their ask from the city from $800 million to $1 billion. A 25% increase. Not exactly marginal.
Consider the alternatives. He mentioned building a temporary stadium somewhere else in Jax. He mentioned a cost of $125 million to do that. That's inaccurate. Look at where the Chargers played for 3 years after they left San Diego. Three years! The place didn't even have 30,000 seats! The UNF soccer stadium is concrete and has 12,000 seats. It would cost less than $50 million to get it up to 40 to 50,000 seats with temporary prefab steel structures. And if UNF decided they wanted to leave it in place afterwards, no demolition cost. There's a small chance those stadium upgrades bring the Jacksonville Armada back as a USLC team. That's probably not enough to keep FL GA but it would be enough to keep the gator bowl. The reduced budget divided by the reduced return on investment would work out to about $200 per visiting butt in seat. That's still high-ish, but low enough that you start to factor in the intangible spiritual and reputational value of a home playoff game actually being in Duval County rather than Gainesville or Orlando.
Then ask would it really be that bad to move the games? The city would never actually do this, but suppose they wanted to charter buses for each game. 60,000 fans in buses that hold 56 passengers each, rented and used 18 times at a cost of $1500 per bus per day works put to $30 million. That's ridiculous of course because Florida does not have 1,100 spare charter buses sitting around, but I thought it would help put that high number into context.
(06-07-2023, 10:11 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 09:37 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/JStCyrTV/status/1666612203405885442
2 years no football downtown....
Taxslayer bowl year 1 --- 30,000,000 impact
Taxslayer bowl year 2 --- 30,000,000 impact
Florida Georgia year 1 --- 33,000.000 impact
Florida Georgia year 2 --- 33,000.000 impact
Jag year 1 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Jag year 2 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Total ----------------------- 186,000,000
Additionally, all current stadium employees, consessions, grounds, mantenance, parking, security etc wave goodbye and good luck for the next 2 years.
Team travel expenses 8 additional games gotta be quite the expense.
Local fans lose 2 prime years of our QB's career after enduring many, many, many years of not having one.
Taxslayer link below. You can get each year of the Gator bowl off the City of Jax website as they track it in pretty good detail. I used 33 million as they vary between 30 and 35. The last link is other losses not included above.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/busin...mic-impact
/15741455007/
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opini...932982007/
That number is taking one year where the game was scheduled close to the new year's holiday, and a lot of visitors stayed additional days, then looking at the total boost in hotel revenue, then making an arbitrary assumption that they spent $5 at local businesses for every $1 they spent on a hotel.
I went to NYC recently and bought a lot of nice meals, took in a Broadway show, multiple museum admissions, and took a lot of Ubers and public transit. I'd estimate I spent about $3 for every $1 I spent on a hotel. That doesn't include airfare (nor should it).
Look guys that 186 mill number is not that far off. My point is it is basically a push for the city when looking at the 850 million (2year) vs the 1billion (4 year plan). My preference is to keep the Taxslayer and not risk the Fls/GA game and have the Jags play here. I am just not a buyer of the 2 year deal. I am sure you guys have your own opinion.
and yes it would be that bad...
Instead of calling them terraced gardens, could we call it a jungle? Feel it fits better with Jaguars.
I’d be miffed if Jags play their best football in franchise history, and it’s in Gville or Orlando
(06-08-2023, 06:27 AM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]I’d be miffed if Jags play their best football in franchise history, and it’s in Gville or Orlando
It won't happen until at least 2026.
(06-07-2023, 10:39 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 09:37 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/JStCyrTV/status/1666612203405885442
He says the price tag for playing games in downtown Jacksonville during construction is two more years of construction time and $190 million more dollars. That's to preserve two years worth of NFL games.
Preseason doesn't count, 7 games one year and 8 games the next gives 15 games if no home playoff games. Be super optimistic and say 18 games. Then you have two FL GA games and 2 gator bowls. Assuming each NFL game brings in 10,000 out of town visitors and each CFL game brings in 70,000 out of town visitors, that's over $400 per visiting butt in seat. That sounds like a horrendous investment for the city to make. The visitors will not spend that much money when they visit.
Another way to look at the number is it changes their ask from the city from $800 million to $1 billion. A 25% increase. Not exactly marginal.
Consider the alternatives. He mentioned building a temporary stadium somewhere else in Jax. He mentioned a cost of $125 million to do that. That's inaccurate. Look at where the Chargers played for 3 years after they left San Diego. Three years! The place didn't even have 30,000 seats! The UNF soccer stadium is concrete and has 12,000 seats. It would cost less than $50 million to get it up to 40 to 50,000 seats with temporary prefab steel structures. And if UNF decided they wanted to leave it in place afterwards, no demolition cost. There's a small chance those stadium upgrades bring the Jacksonville Armada back as a USLC team. That's probably not enough to keep FL GA but it would be enough to keep the gator bowl. The reduced budget divided by the reduced return on investment would work out to about $200 per visiting butt in seat. That's still high-ish, but low enough that you start to factor in the intangible spiritual and reputational value of a home playoff game actually being in Duval County rather than Gainesville or Orlando.
Then ask would it really be that bad to move the games? The city would never actually do this, but suppose they wanted to charter buses for each game. 60,000 fans in buses that hold 56 passengers each, rented and used 18 times at a cost of $1500 per bus per day works put to $30 million. That's ridiculous of course because Florida does not have 1,100 spare charter buses sitting around, but I thought it would help put that high number into context.
I think everyone is missing the long term vision of creating a robust river front that will be a destination place. Once the Shipyard project is complete and the new stadium is completed the revitalization will continue to expand in both directions but especially west towards downtown. With open lots where the courthouse and jail used to be I see East Bay street completely revamped with bars, night clubs and restaurants all the way to the Lerp sign.
(06-07-2023, 10:11 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 09:37 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/JStCyrTV/status/1666612203405885442
2 years no football downtown....
Taxslayer bowl year 1 --- 30,000,000 impact
Taxslayer bowl year 2 --- 30,000,000 impact
Florida Georgia year 1 --- 33,000.000 impact
Florida Georgia year 2 --- 33,000.000 impact
Jag year 1 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Jag year 2 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Total ----------------------- 186,000,000
Additionally, all current stadium employees, consessions, grounds, mantenance, parking, security etc wave goodbye and good luck for the next 2 years.
Team travel expenses 8 additional games gotta be quite the expense.
Local fans lose 2 prime years of our QB's career after enduring many, many, many years of not having one.
Taxslayer link below. You can get each year of the Gator bowl off the City of Jax website as they track it in pretty good detail. I used 33 million as they vary between 30 and 35. The last link is other losses not included above.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/busin...mic-impact
/15741455007/
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opini...932982007/
Even with the figures removed. The biggest takeaway is that in bold above. We finally get a competent, bona fide superstar at the prime position in all of sports, only to turn around potentially and lose out on two years of his potential ascension into the upper echelon of QB's. No thanks. Pay the [BLEEP] extra fees. Keep the revenue here and stretch it out over four years. This two year idea is really, really souring everything for me as a fan.
(06-07-2023, 12:16 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 12:14 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Telling you man. You have to give them a coupon book with some vouchers.
Read the comments. There are some stunningly stupid people in this city.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2023/06/...sentation/
Rule 1 is never read the comments.
(06-07-2023, 12:51 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]I see in the concept that they got rid of the pool..
Need a lazy river that flows around the stadium.. Maybe we could just rent an inner tube and float around the stadium during the games.
Still waiting on the volleyball nets..
...You wanna spend four hours of gameday in wet jorts? no thanks.
(06-08-2023, 08:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 10:11 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]2 years no football downtown....
Taxslayer bowl year 1 --- 30,000,000 impact
Taxslayer bowl year 2 --- 30,000,000 impact
Florida Georgia year 1 --- 33,000.000 impact
Florida Georgia year 2 --- 33,000.000 impact
Jag year 1 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Jag year 2 ------------------ 30,000,000 impact
Total ----------------------- 186,000,000
Additionally, all current stadium employees, consessions, grounds, mantenance, parking, security etc wave goodbye and good luck for the next 2 years.
Team travel expenses 8 additional games gotta be quite the expense.
Local fans lose 2 prime years of our QB's career after enduring many, many, many years of not having one.
Taxslayer link below. You can get each year of the Gator bowl off the City of Jax website as they track it in pretty good detail. I used 33 million as they vary between 30 and 35. The last link is other losses not included above.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/busin...mic-impact
/15741455007/
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opini...932982007/
Even with the figures removed. The biggest takeaway is that in bold above. We finally get a competent, bona fide superstar at the prime position in all of sports, only to turn around potentially and lose out on two years of his potential ascension into the upper echelon of QB's. No thanks. Pay the [BLEEP] extra fees. Keep the revenue here and stretch it out over four years. This two year idea is really, really souring everything for me as a fan.
I agree. The cost of keeping the team in the stadium while it is being renovated is offset by the local revenues lost if the team moves out for 2 years.
In addition to that, there is the overriding intangible- the fans want to see the team and it's much more convenient if the team is in the stadium downtown.
(06-08-2023, 08:07 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 12:16 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Read the comments. There are some stunningly stupid people in this city.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2023/06/...sentation/
Rule 1 is never read the comments.
(06-07-2023, 12:51 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]I see in the concept that they got rid of the pool..
Need a lazy river that flows around the stadium.. Maybe we could just rent an inner tube and float around the stadium during the games.
Still waiting on the volleyball nets..
...You wanna spend four hours of gameday in wet jorts? no thanks.
You mean you don’t have a TV next to the pool on game days?
Some of the images I saw this morning look better. I still don't like the supports running over the roof and the field. This is going to create shadows all over the field but they probably don't care from a design standpoint. The outside being reflective is just asking for problems with the sun.
The outside being reflective, just like the outside TV screens, is one of those things that isn't super important and could be a good target for cost cutting. Maybe it can be done economically, in which case why not do it, but it probably can't. Plus there's the chance that it could create hotspots on the ground and in the air.
(06-08-2023, 07:58 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2023, 10:39 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]He says the price tag for playing games in downtown Jacksonville during construction is two more years of construction time and $190 million more dollars. That's to preserve two years worth of NFL games.
Preseason doesn't count, 7 games one year and 8 games the next gives 15 games if no home playoff games. Be super optimistic and say 18 games. Then you have two FL GA games and 2 gator bowls. Assuming each NFL game brings in 10,000 out of town visitors and each CFL game brings in 70,000 out of town visitors, that's over $400 per visiting butt in seat. That sounds like a horrendous investment for the city to make. The visitors will not spend that much money when they visit.
Another way to look at the number is it changes their ask from the city from $800 million to $1 billion. A 25% increase. Not exactly marginal.
Consider the alternatives. He mentioned building a temporary stadium somewhere else in Jax. He mentioned a cost of $125 million to do that. That's inaccurate. Look at where the Chargers played for 3 years after they left San Diego. Three years! The place didn't even have 30,000 seats! The UNF soccer stadium is concrete and has 12,000 seats. It would cost less than $50 million to get it up to 40 to 50,000 seats with temporary prefab steel structures. And if UNF decided they wanted to leave it in place afterwards, no demolition cost. There's a small chance those stadium upgrades bring the Jacksonville Armada back as a USLC team. That's probably not enough to keep FL GA but it would be enough to keep the gator bowl. The reduced budget divided by the reduced return on investment would work out to about $200 per visiting butt in seat. That's still high-ish, but low enough that you start to factor in the intangible spiritual and reputational value of a home playoff game actually being in Duval County rather than Gainesville or Orlando.
Then ask would it really be that bad to move the games? The city would never actually do this, but suppose they wanted to charter buses for each game. 60,000 fans in buses that hold 56 passengers each, rented and used 18 times at a cost of $1500 per bus per day works put to $30 million. That's ridiculous of course because Florida does not have 1,100 spare charter buses sitting around, but I thought it would help put that high number into context.
I think everyone is missing the long term vision of creating a robust river front that will be a destination place. Once the Shipyard project is complete and the new stadium is completed the revitalization will continue to expand in both directions but especially west towards downtown. With open lots where the courthouse and jail used to be I see East Bay street completely revamped with bars, night clubs and restaurants all the way to the Lerp sign.
The long term vision is the same either way. It's just a question of how many years you wait and how many dollars you spend to get there. Playing games in downtown Jacksonville adds 2 years and nearly 200 million to the construction costs. Playing games at a temporarily upgraded UNF stadium is a vastly superior option for keeping the games in Jax.
Then you end up in the same place. Upgraded stadium in downtown Jax.
I loved going to games when we lived in Arlington. I could bus in and out crazy fast. Friends who tailgated loved how convenient the location is compared to other places. I really hope they remake downtown and breath in some life. When I go out to Arlington Texas for events, the traffic adds such a major headache to everything you want to do. I loved my experience in Jacksonville. We miss it and would love to go home if it wasn't for work.
(06-08-2023, 10:30 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]The outside being reflective, just like the outside TV screens, is one of those things that isn't super important and could be a good target for cost cutting. Maybe it can be done economically, in which case why not do it, but it probably can't. Plus there's the chance that it could create hotspots on the ground and in the air.
(06-08-2023, 07:58 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]I think everyone is missing the long term vision of creating a robust river front that will be a destination place. Once the Shipyard project is complete and the new stadium is completed the revitalization will continue to expand in both directions but especially west towards downtown. With open lots where the courthouse and jail used to be I see East Bay street completely revamped with bars, night clubs and restaurants all the way to the Lerp sign.
The long term vision is the same either way. It's just a question of how many years you wait and how many dollars you spend to get there. Playing games in downtown Jacksonville adds 2 years and nearly 200 million to the construction costs. Playing games at a temporarily upgraded UNF stadium is a vastly superior option for keeping the games in Jax.
Then you end up in the same place. Upgraded stadium in downtown Jax.
As long as the games are in Jacksonville ok by me. The 2 years of impact that they would remove are part of the current agreement and payback on our previous investment. It is like saying I am getting another house so I am not gonna pay 2 years of mortgage to your current landlord.