(03-18-2024, 05:06 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 04:24 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ]I understand the cap about as well as anyone else...
Again, those teams lucked up to have drafted WR high and they actually performed as a #1. Most teams, most times, it takes 1, 2, 3 years before a rookie perform as you need them to. And bout that time it's time to pay them or they hold out.
You can't gamble your job that a rookie will be exceptional. You don't have the 1-3 years it takes for a good 1st round pick to perform as needed. We don't need 40 catches, 680 yards, which is what a normal rookie will put up.
It's nice to have a rookie immediately put up probowl numbers...but it's exceptional.
Which is fine. I believe the impetus is on Kirk and his 24 (I believe) million cap hit to be the gaudy number guy. If the rook puts up 700 this year getting his legs under him and learning the nuance of beating NFL corners week in and out, that's fine.
What happens if you pay Higgins Ridley money, and he's the one putting up 700 yard seasons?
I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
(03-18-2024, 11:42 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 05:06 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Which is fine. I believe the impetus is on Kirk and his 24 (I believe) million cap hit to be the gaudy number guy. If the rook puts up 700 this year getting his legs under him and learning the nuance of beating NFL corners week in and out, that's fine.
What happens if you pay Higgins Ridley money, and he's the one putting up 700 yard seasons?
I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
Ok so the solution to our WR room is to fire all the players we currently we have and get the players you want? Cool-a-rooney
(03-18-2024, 11:42 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 05:06 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Which is fine. I believe the impetus is on Kirk and his 24 (I believe) million cap hit to be the gaudy number guy. If the rook puts up 700 this year getting his legs under him and learning the nuance of beating NFL corners week in and out, that's fine.
What happens if you pay Higgins Ridley money, and he's the one putting up 700 yard seasons?
I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
Kirk's first year here, he had more yards and TDs than Higgins has ever had in a season. I wouldn't cut Kirk to give up a high pick in a trade for Higgins
Our WR room needs to get better, younger, and cheaper. You do that by drafting a good one in the first after years of ignoring it. Trade up for Rome or hope brian thomas falls to you.
(03-18-2024, 11:33 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 04:34 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]What are you on about?
I believe its time to update team building philosophy.
A coach and GM no longer have 5, 8, 10 years to build a playoff team thru the draft. I'd guess they get 2-3 years now.
No matter what a rookie has done in college, GMs can only pray they transition well to the NFL.
It seems safer to build your core thru free agency, and fill in the rest thru drafting. You don't pass up proven stars like Aiyuk and Higgins...for a 17th pick.
That's always been the way. Build thru the darft, patch in FA. Doing it the other way will eventually come back to bite you in the rear. Guys get old, guys get expensive, and relying on FA to build allows the competition to get younger, cheaper, and sustainable.
I think there's some nuance, too. It's a lot easier to get big uglies and plug them in immediately and get production, same with RB. They can be drafted early and often, and it's ok to let them walk unless they are the second coming of Aaron Donald or Tony Boselli. The skill positions require a little more patience, but you pay the price if you choose FA over waiting. If you are in win now mode, spending big-splash type of FA moves is best suited to pass rush, passer, or receivers.
(03-18-2024, 11:40 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 11:33 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ]I believe its time to update team building philosophy.
A coach and GM no longer have 5, 8, 10 years to build a playoff team thru the draft. I'd guess they get 2-3 years now.
No matter what a rookie has done in college, GMs can only pray they transition well to the NFL.
It seems safer to build your core thru free agency, and fill in the rest thru drafting. You don't pass up proven stars like Aiyuk and Higgins...for a 17th pick.
In other words. "[BLEEP] them picks!"
Your way is illustrated best by the Rams and their recent Super Bowl win. I don't think a team could ever build a dynasty in such a way, but if you want to go all in for a particular year and then pay for it for a few years after, that's how you'd do it. I don't hate it if it actually does result in a Super Bowl win, but I'd still prefer the year in year out competitive squad that comes from building through the draft and doing it that way well. It requires an owner that doesn't cow tow to vocal fan outrage when things don't work out after years 1 and 2. We seem to have such an owner and we seem to have the coach and QB and some pieces on the roster. I think we're in a good spot to do it the right way to build a consistent competitor.
Their prior appearance came when they had Goff, Gurley and Donald playing lights out. All darft picks.
Hitting on picks hides a lot of blemishes, too. Kupp and Nacua were both surprises for how well they did that early in their careers. If you can manage to find all stars in mid to late rounds, shifting the balance toward FA isn't as detrimental in the short term. But Stafford is showing signs of age, Donald just retired, and it would be nice to have a young core waiting in the wings. Look at where the Aints have been since Brees and Payton walked. And they're still not out of the woods.
I really like the base-hit approach to FA. We brought in a number of guys, all who can and should contribute, but we aren't going to be sacrificing roster spots due to over-committing cap to them. We're generally hitting on the early picks, and they will be the core upon which everything else builds.
(03-18-2024, 11:42 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 05:06 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Which is fine. I believe the impetus is on Kirk and his 24 (I believe) million cap hit to be the gaudy number guy. If the rook puts up 700 this year getting his legs under him and learning the nuance of beating NFL corners week in and out, that's fine.
What happens if you pay Higgins Ridley money, and he's the one putting up 700 yard seasons?
I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
You're grotesquely over thinking it.
Kirk is our most productive receiver when healthy and it doesn't matter that he does that from the slot.
Cutting him would be insane.
We don't need a "#1" - we need a guy suited to play the X at an above average level. We have a bunch of y's and z's.
Gabe Davis may be that guy, not sure.
But even without that - this current receiving corps will "get the job done" if they just fix the damn OL enough to allow more PA and downfield attempts that don't end with Trevor being mangled.
(03-19-2024, 11:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 11:42 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
You're grotesquely over thinking it.
Kirk is our most productive receiver when healthy and it doesn't matter that he does that from the slot.
Cutting him would be insane.
We don't need a "#1" - we need a guy suited to play the X at an above average level. We have a bunch of y's and z's.
Gabe Davis may be that guy, not sure.
But even without that - this current receiving corps will "get the job done" if they just fix the damn OL enough to allow more PA and downfield attempts that don't end with Trevor being mangled.
Yes. Some people just don't seem to understand how much a better running game will help the passing game. A better offensive line will help this passing game much more than adding a "#1 receiver" would. By far. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Jaguars had 120 running plays last year that went for zero or less than zero yards. That's 7 times per game we ran for no yards or a loss of yards. We're seeing 2nd and 12 or 3rd and 12 SEVEN TIMES PER GAME!!!
You can put Randy Moss and Jerry Rice out there, and if you can't run the ball any better than that, your offensive will struggle.
(03-19-2024, 01:03 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (03-19-2024, 11:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]You're grotesquely over thinking it.
Kirk is our most productive receiver when healthy and it doesn't matter that he does that from the slot.
Cutting him would be insane.
We don't need a "#1" - we need a guy suited to play the X at an above average level. We have a bunch of y's and z's.
Gabe Davis may be that guy, not sure.
But even without that - this current receiving corps will "get the job done" if they just fix the damn OL enough to allow more PA and downfield attempts that don't end with Trevor being mangled.
Yes. Some people just don't seem to understand how much a better running game will help the passing game. A better offensive line will help this passing game much more than adding a "#1 receiver" would. By far. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Jaguars had 120 running plays last year that went for zero or less than zero yards. That's 7 times per game we ran for no yards or a loss of yards. We're seeing 2nd and 12 or 3rd and 12 SEVEN TIMES PER GAME!!!
You can put Randy Moss and Jerry Rice out there, and if you can't run the ball any better than that, your offensive will struggle.
Because the QB is running for his life AND GETTING INJURED.
Are you hearing us, Trent Baalke??
(03-19-2024, 07:04 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Our WR room needs to get better, younger, and cheaper. You do that by drafting a good one in the first after years of ignoring it. Trade up for Rome or hope brian thomas falls to you.
This brings me to question who really were the top 5 WRs actually drafted by the Jags. It kind of sucks to think Allen Robinson, Allen Hurns, Cecil Shorts, Reggie Williams, and Kellan Cole, who combined for a total of ~ 12,500 yards were our Top 5 Best Drafted WRs .... I mean, Jimmy Smith alone had 12,287 yards receiving.
(03-19-2024, 01:46 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (03-19-2024, 07:04 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Our WR room needs to get better, younger, and cheaper. You do that by drafting a good one in the first after years of ignoring it. Trade up for Rome or hope brian thomas falls to you.
This brings me to question who really were the top 5 WRs actually drafted by the Jags. It kind of sucks to think Allen Robinson, Allen Hurns, Cecil Shorts, Reggie Williams, and Kellan Cole, who combined for a total of ~ 12,500 yards were our Top 5 Best Drafted WRs .... I mean, Jimmy Smith alone had 12,287 yards receiving.
Hurns and Cole were UDFAs.
(03-19-2024, 11:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2024, 11:42 PM)Mandeezee Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the problem is Kirk's salary. 24 million too much for a #2 who can't do the things of a #1. Which make no mistake about it, he can't. He doesn't have the athleticism and explosiveness.
That salary should go to someone like Aiyuk or Higgins. If the contract allowed, it would work if they could cut Kirk and give his salary to a #1. Even though it won't happen because it would be a slimy thing to do but a WR Corp of Aiyuk/Higgins, Davis, Washington would get the job done.
You're grotesquely over thinking it.
Kirk is our most productive receiver when healthy and it doesn't matter that he does that from the slot.
Cutting him would be insane.
We don't need a "#1" - we need a guy suited to play the X at an above average level. We have a bunch of y's and z's.
Gabe Davis may be that guy, not sure.
But even without that - this current receiving corps will "get the job done" if they just fix the damn OL enough to allow more PA and downfield attempts that don't end with Trevor being mangled.
I was going to write exactly this, we don’t need a number 1 receiver, we have it in Kirk, we just need someone who we can go over the top to, I really like Kirk, he’s been really reliable and love having him.
(03-19-2024, 01:55 PM)Dockerill91 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-19-2024, 11:32 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]You're grotesquely over thinking it.
Kirk is our most productive receiver when healthy and it doesn't matter that he does that from the slot.
Cutting him would be insane.
We don't need a "#1" - we need a guy suited to play the X at an above average level. We have a bunch of y's and z's.
Gabe Davis may be that guy, not sure.
But even without that - this current receiving corps will "get the job done" if they just fix the damn OL enough to allow more PA and downfield attempts that don't end with Trevor being mangled.
I was going to write exactly this, we don’t need a number 1 receiver, we have it in Kirk, we just need someone who we can go over the top to, I really like Kirk, he’s been really reliable and love having him.
One way to get "over the top" is to run the ball better. Draw the defense forward. Make them respect the run.
Forget about that fabled "#1 receiver." Get a better offensive line, and that'll make it much easier for any of our receivers to get over the top.
(03-19-2024, 01:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (03-19-2024, 01:46 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]This brings me to question who really were the top 5 WRs actually drafted by the Jags. It kind of sucks to think Allen Robinson, Allen Hurns, Cecil Shorts, Reggie Williams, and Kellan Cole, who combined for a total of ~ 12,500 yards were our Top 5 Best Drafted WRs .... I mean, Jimmy Smith alone had 12,287 yards receiving.
Hurns and Cole were UDFAs.
Neither of them did anything after they left here. They were a product of us being terrible and airing out the ball in the second halves of blowouts than they were good receivers.
(03-19-2024, 05:14 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-19-2024, 01:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Hurns and Cole were UDFAs.
Neither of them did anything after they left here. They were a product of us being terrible and airing out the ball in the second halves of blowouts than they were good receivers.
Neither of them were drafted by the Jags, so you can't include them in a list of "top 5 receivers drafted by the Jags."
