(12-07-2023, 09:32 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2023, 09:29 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Josh Allen gets paid, then disappears. It’s a nagging suspicion I can’t shake. #jagstrauma
I don't worry about that at all, just that we can keep enough around him to let him work. He's the antithesis of Who Douglas, and a man of upstanding character. I think he's going to be at the top of the League for the next 5 years.
Yeah I don't worry about that with Allen at all. Like literally the thought has never crossed my mind except when I read it here.
(12-04-2023, 09:55 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (12-03-2023, 12:01 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, it's been a discussion since his rookie season that Allen's play isn't consistent. He'll have a monster game and then be invisible the next couple weeks. That's been a real thing with him. Anyone that says otherwise is lying. With that said, I hope we can make him an offer that he'll accept. He's worth paying top 5 money, especially when teamed up with Walker. But the concern that he'll get his bag and then become inconsistent again is real and valid.
I always notice that you comment on my posts but really have nothing to contribute but some lame insult to me. Like bro, relax. First, I shouldn't take up so much of your time. Second, Trolling, much like spamming the board will not be tolerated. If a user's behavior is determined to be trolling in nature, posting privileges can be suspended.
Lighten up. You've been here long enough to get the joke.
We all poke fun at each other. When you drop a bad taek (of which 10-15M offer certainly was), you gotta expect a few jabs your way. Roll with em, kinda like the guy who started the week 9 stuff did.
On the topic, I still think your attempted analysis is way off base. You fail to acknowledge any of the so-called support that led to Allen's prior inconsistency; for several years, he was playing opposite Chaisson, and got negligible help in drawing focus from opposing linemen. He's never been asked to solely rush the passer like some other of the stat sheet heroes are. I don't see how you look at the present makeup of the team and say that the only change being his payroll that you would expect his talent, effort or character to change. He's been on some piss poor defenses and asked to carry the brunt of the load, and not once did he pout, demand a bag, or seek a ticket to greener pasture. The inconsistency, in my mind, is a symptom of the group that surrounded him in the past, not a result in him cherrry picking which teams were going to be best yields for his stat sheet, or conservation of effort to ensure he can chase a payday elsewhere when the rookie deal runs out.
If you've got concern that he changes who he is (and has been) once the check clears, I question whether you've been paying attention to him over the years.
(12-07-2023, 04:12 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2023, 09:32 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I don't worry about that at all, just that we can keep enough around him to let him work. He's the antithesis of Who Douglas, and a man of upstanding character. I think he's going to be at the top of the League for the next 5 years.
Yeah I don't worry about that with Allen at all. Like literally the thought has never crossed my mind except when I read it here.
20 million would be worthy of his performance...
Everyone loves Josh Allen, but he's not a a top 20 Defensive Edge Rusher... He's just not. But he absolutely should get paid.
I'm the guy that said 10 Million. Welp, I was [BLEEP] wrong. I completely blew that. But I wouldn't pay Josh Allen any more than 20 Million.
The high end D-Edge rushers are making 34 to 21 million.
https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Josh Allen isn't a top 12 DE. His stats prove he's right around the 15th best. So pay him that much, and give him a prove it contract. It's not that hard.
(12-07-2023, 05:06 PM)jagshype Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2023, 04:59 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]20 million would be worthy of his performance...
Everyone loves Josh Allen, but he's not a a top 20 Defensive Edge Rusher... He's just not. But he absolutely should get paid.
I'm the guy that said 10 Million. Welp, I was [BLEEP] wrong. I completely blew that. But I wouldn't pay Josh Allen any more than 20 Million.
The high end D-Edge rushers are making 34 to 21 million. https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Josh Allen isn't a top 12 DE. His stats prove he's right around the 15th best. So pay him that much, and give him a prove it contract. It's not that hard.
bare minimum 24 aav
24 Million a year puts him at the top 5 Edge rusher in the league... Is his stats top 5 for edge rushers?
https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
(12-07-2023, 05:14 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2023, 05:06 PM)jagshype Wrote: [ -> ]bare minimum 24 aav
24 Million a year puts him at the top 5 Edge rusher in the league... Is his stats top 5 for edge rushers?
https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
irrelevant
thats the market conditions
Are you going to be able to sign a top 5 pass rusher? no
Do I expect Allen to continue his ascent? yes
Hes a home grown leader, his contract wont be solely based on pure performance
Allen would get paid a monster contract in the open market
(12-07-2023, 04:59 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (12-04-2023, 09:55 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Lighten up. You've been here long enough to get the joke.
We all poke fun at each other. When you drop a bad taek (of which 10-15M offer certainly was), you gotta expect a few jabs your way. Roll with em, kinda like the guy who started the week 9 stuff did.
On the topic, I still think your attempted analysis is way off base. You fail to acknowledge any of the so-called support that led to Allen's prior inconsistency; for several years, he was playing opposite Chaisson, and got negligible help in drawing focus from opposing linemen. He's never been asked to solely rush the passer like some other of the stat sheet heroes are. I don't see how you look at the present makeup of the team and say that the only change being his payroll that you would expect his talent, effort or character to change. He's been on some piss poor defenses and asked to carry the brunt of the load, and not once did he pout, demand a bag, or seek a ticket to greener pasture. The inconsistency, in my mind, is a symptom of the group that surrounded him in the past, not a result in him cherrry picking which teams were going to be best yields for his stat sheet, or conservation of effort to ensure he can chase a payday elsewhere when the rookie deal runs out.
If you've got concern that he changes who he is (and has been) once the check clears, I question whether you've been paying attention to him over the years.
(12-07-2023, 04:12 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah I don't worry about that with Allen at all. Like literally the thought has never crossed my mind except when I read it here.
20 million would be worthy of his performance...
Everyone loves Josh Allen, but he's not a a top 20 Defensive Edge Rusher... He's just not. But he absolutely should get paid.
I'm the guy that said 10 Million. Welp, I was [BLEEP] wrong. I completely blew that. But I wouldn't pay Josh Allen any more than 20 Million.
The high end D-Edge rushers are making 34 to 21 million. https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Josh Allen isn't a top 12 DE. His stats prove he's right around the 15th best. So pay him that much, and give him a prove it contract. It's not that hard.
Not a top 20 edge player? Are you high?
In what universe is Allen NOT a top 12 DE right now?
(12-07-2023, 05:29 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2023, 04:59 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]20 million would be worthy of his performance...
Everyone loves Josh Allen, but he's not a a top 20 Defensive Edge Rusher... He's just not. But he absolutely should get paid.
I'm the guy that said 10 Million. Welp, I was [BLEEP] wrong. I completely blew that. But I wouldn't pay Josh Allen any more than 20 Million.
The high end D-Edge rushers are making 34 to 21 million. https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Josh Allen isn't a top 12 DE. His stats prove he's right around the 15th best. So pay him that much, and give him a prove it contract. It's not that hard.
Not a top 20 edge player? Are you high?
Why attribute to narcotics what can more accurately be attributed to ignorance?
Allen has been good last year and insanely good this year.. we would be dumb to not keep him. I admit I had my doubts about him for awhile but there's no denying it now, he good.
Pay the man……should be an easy decision.
(12-07-2023, 09:29 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Josh Allen gets paid, then disappears. It’s a nagging suspicion I can’t shake. #jagstrauma
My anxiety is he gets paid and week 1 there goes the Achilles.
Would be the most Jaguar outcome possible.
(12-07-2023, 05:29 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]In what universe is Allen NOT a top 12 DE right now?
on the stats sheet, duh.
@because that's the only thing that matters.@
Again, until another player or two is either drafted, developed or picked up via free agency that can give you the production Allen has provided this year? You keep him on the football team. Doesn't matter if you have to franchise tag him or break the bank for him.
The reality is that this team's fortunes are vastly, vastly different over the last two years without his direct impact in football games. You can go back and look at everything on paper, but, right off the top of my head, he had the big play against the tacks in the final week of last year to secure the divisional title. He also sacked Stroud, put them a little bit further out of field goal range, and, that was ultimately the difference in us being swept or splitting the difference with them this year.
He also comes up big against the clots time and time again. Think he had a big play awhile back earlier this year that was either a fumble or some type of big TD play defensively. So, the idea that you're going to allow a guy that good, especially against your divisional rivals, who, by all accounts, looks like they're pretty damn good this year and moving forward, you don't let that talent walk out of here.
He's on pace to break Bracken's franchise sack record here. It's a whopping 60 some odd sacks. That's poultry compared to other franchise's. That's how STARVED this franchise has been with a consistent, viable presence in the pass rushing department. You cannot take that for granted. If he dips in production after the contract extension? Ship his [BLEEP] off for some picks to a team that WILL gamble on him. But, I think, as long as this team is winning? And the culture is good? And these guys see what Pederson, and, especially what Lawrence is doing, and his willingness to gut it out with injuries?
They'll feed off of him. It's scary, but, if this offense could just get a little bit better in the trenches moving forward, or, next year at the minimum, you can fully expect this team to play with more leads and give this defense ample cushion to pin their ears back more. Allen and Walker would probably have a few more sacks had we not had to play in some closely contested football games this year where the running game or short passing game was still on the table to be used on our defense.
(12-08-2023, 10:24 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Again, until another player or two is either drafted, developed or picked up via free agency that can give you the production Allen has provided this year? You keep him on the football team. Doesn't matter if you have to franchise tag him or break the bank for him.
The reality is that this team's fortunes are vastly, vastly different over the last two years without his direct impact in football games. You can go back and look at everything on paper, but, right off the top of my head, he had the big play against the tacks in the final week of last year to secure the divisional title. He also sacked Stroud, put them a little bit further out of field goal range, and, that was ultimately the difference in us being swept or splitting the difference with them this year.
He also comes up big against the clots time and time again. Think he had a big play awhile back earlier this year that was either a fumble or some type of big TD play defensively. So, the idea that you're going to allow a guy that good, especially against your divisional rivals, who, by all accounts, looks like they're pretty damn good this year and moving forward, you don't let that talent walk out of here.
He's on pace to break Bracken's franchise sack record here. It's a whopping 60 some odd sacks. That's poultry compared to other franchise's. That's how STARVED this franchise has been with a consistent, viable presence in the pass rushing department. You cannot take that for granted. If he dips in production after the contract extension? Ship his [BLEEP] off for some picks to a team that WILL gamble on him. But, I think, as long as this team is winning? And the culture is good? And these guys see what Pederson, and, especially what Lawrence is doing, and his willingness to gut it out with injuries?
They'll feed off of him. It's scary, but, if this offense could just get a little bit better in the trenches moving forward, or, next year at the minimum, you can fully expect this team to play with more leads and give this defense ample cushion to pin their ears back more. Allen and Walker would probably have a few more sacks had we not had to play in some closely contested football games this year where the running game or short passing game was still on the table to be used on our defense.
I agree with locking up Allen, but to the bolded, they were kicking for the tie to go to overtime not necessarily the win. Huge timely play by Allen nonetheless.
20 million to Allen.
20 million to Walker in 2 years...
You realize that Oloukun also needs to get paid.
Let's not forget that we need to pay our high end CB, who while nursing a hamstring is still considered a top 5 Corner Back. Unless we all decide to let him go cuz we need to hold on to Josh Allen.
There are plenty of high end talent on this team on the Defense. We'll see how it all works out.
(12-08-2023, 09:46 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]20 million to Allen.
20 million to Walker in 2 years...
You realize that Oloukun also needs to get paid.
Let's not forget that we need to pay our high end CB, who while nursing a hamstring is still considered a top 5 Corner Back. Unless we all decide to let him go cuz we need to hold on to Josh Allen.
There are plenty of high end talent on this team on the Defense. We'll see how it all works out.
Cap is also going up by like $35 million in 2025. We’re fine.
The cap isn’t real anyway, EVERYTHING can be manipulated.
(12-08-2023, 09:57 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2023, 09:46 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]20 million to Allen.
20 million to Walker in 2 years...
You realize that Oloukun also needs to get paid.
Let's not forget that we need to pay our high end CB, who while nursing a hamstring is still considered a top 5 Corner Back. Unless we all decide to let him go cuz we need to hold on to Josh Allen.
There are plenty of high end talent on this team on the Defense. We'll see how it all works out.
Cap is also going up by like $35 million in 2025. We’re fine.
The cap isn’t real anyway, EVERYTHING can be manipulated.
No doubt. But let's not pretend that this franchise doesn't let top talent go in order to cheap out...
Especially on Defense and WRs we don't hang on to drafted talent.
So I guess we'll see. I'd prefer to keep Josh Allen, but he's not a top 10 Edge rusher...
https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Plus there are other players we should sign. 20 million for Josh Allen is a good sign. If Josh Allen isn't going to sign for 20 million, then is an idiot and I'd let him walk. He's Unique IndounKewey.
Why over pay for that same type of player. Josh Allan and Unique IndunKuay are the same player. Give him 20 Million. He's not worth anymore than that.
(12-08-2023, 10:05 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2023, 09:57 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]Cap is also going up by like $35 million in 2025. We’re fine.
The cap isn’t real anyway, EVERYTHING can be manipulated.
No doubt. But let's not pretend that this franchise doesn't let top talent go in order to cheap out...
Especially on Defense and WRs we don't hang on to drafted talent.
So I guess we'll see. I'd prefer to keep Josh Allen, but he's not a top 10 Edge rusher... https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Plus there are other players we should sign. 20 million for Josh Allen is a good sign. If Josh Allen isn't going to sign for 20 million, then is an idiot and I'd let him walk. He's Unique IndounKewey.
Why over pay for that same type of player. Josh Allan and Unique IndunKuay are the same player. Give him 20 Million. He's not worth anymore than that.
You did not just say Allen and Ngakoue are the same player. You can’t be serious.
(12-08-2023, 10:13 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2023, 10:05 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]No doubt. But let's not pretend that this franchise doesn't let top talent go in order to cheap out...
Especially on Defense and WRs we don't hang on to drafted talent.
So I guess we'll see. I'd prefer to keep Josh Allen, but he's not a top 10 Edge rusher... https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Plus there are other players we should sign. 20 million for Josh Allen is a good sign. If Josh Allen isn't going to sign for 20 million, then is an idiot and I'd let him walk. He's Unique IndounKewey.
Why over pay for that same type of player. Josh Allan and Unique IndunKuay are the same player. Give him 20 Million. He's not worth anymore than that.
You did not just say Allen and Ngakoue are the same player. You can’t be serious.
yannick ngakoue was the darling of Jacksonville for his entire rookie contract. When we made our playoff run, and the year before when we looked dangerous, Yannick was highly loved by the fanbase.
I'm sure there's a Yannick mega-thread here where you can go back and refer to...
(12-09-2023, 06:56 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2023, 10:13 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]You did not just say Allen and Ngakoue are the same player. You can’t be serious.
yannick ngakoue was the darling of Jacksonville for his entire rookie contract. When we made our playoff run, and the year before when we looked dangerous, Yannick was highly loved by the fanbase.
I'm sure there's a Yannick mega-thread here where you can go back and refer to...
What, exactly, does that have to do with him being the 'same player'?
(12-09-2023, 07:39 PM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (12-09-2023, 06:56 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]yannick ngakoue was the darling of Jacksonville for his entire rookie contract. When we made our playoff run, and the year before when we looked dangerous, Yannick was highly loved by the fanbase.
I'm sure there's a Yannick mega-thread here where you can go back and refer to...
What, exactly, does that have to do with him being the 'same player'?
Nothing. I guess. Other than Ngakoue and Allen were both amazing players when they wanted to be, but they also didn't show up quite often.
Sorry, I guess I'm just a very cynical fan. Josh Allen does great when he does great. Yannick was the same. After Yannick got his bag from Chicago, he basically became irrelevant. I don't mind keeping Allen. I just don't think he's worth a top 10 Edge Rush contract. 20 million per would be a good contract for him... That is the going rate...
While I love Allen, he's not worth a top 5 annual contract. He's just not.
I'm not sure if I'm being unclear with what I'm saying... He's worth keeping. But he's not worth keeping as a top 5 Edge Rusher. He's top 10... There's no need to break the bank. And if he want to go that route, he'll wind up like Yannick. With a huge bag but on an under performing team...
I'm not saying anything revolutionary here.
Edit: Here's the payout range for Edge Rushers...
https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher
Assuming that the Cap increases by 5% for next year. I still don't see why we'd pay Allen 30 million per year. He's worthy of a 20 Million contract over 4 years, with a signing bonus. Then we can re-sign Walker so long as he continues to progress. And we also have room for Aloukun, and Campbell so long as he gets health. All while also having to consider that money we're about to invest into Lawrence while determining which recievers and Linemen we're gonna invest in...
Pay Josh Allen? Absolutely. But I hope we don't over-pay to the point we lose other talent. Josh Allen, while having a really good year, isn't a game changer to where you give him all the monies.