(10-16-2023, 05:26 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I'd pay Josh Allen what he's worth. A mid Edge Rusher and a top level interior lineman. Give him incentives and increase his pay by the cost of living. Just like all of us get. 10 million per year to 15 million per year. That's a nice little increase for a guy that is a Jaguar and we love, but isn't a real deal Edge Rusher that teams fear.
Dude's not elite. Don't get it twisted. Remember when some of you all were wanting to give Jawaan Taylor all the monies? The "good" Josh Allen is similar. Not to say he's trash. He's a good player and a great Locker Room guy. But you don't overpay for a guy that isn't elite now and won't ever be elite.
Wait. Who said that?
(10-16-2023, 07:25 PM)Charlie Sheen Wrote: [ -> ] (10-16-2023, 05:26 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I'd pay Josh Allen what he's worth. A mid Edge Rusher and a top level interior lineman. Give him incentives and increase his pay by the cost of living. Just like all of us get. 10 million per year to 15 million per year. That's a nice little increase for a guy that is a Jaguar and we love, but isn't a real deal Edge Rusher that teams fear.
Dude's not elite. Don't get it twisted. Remember when some of you all were wanting to give Jawaan Taylor all the monies? The "good" Josh Allen is similar. Not to say he's trash. He's a good player and a great Locker Room guy. But you don't overpay for a guy that isn't elite now and won't ever be elite.
Wait. Who said that?
The guy in carp8dm's mirror?
(10-15-2023, 07:26 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's review Josh Allen's career:
2019: Rookie Season. Pro Bowler.
2020: Injury plagued season. He didn't play in half of the games and wasn't completely healthy for much of the half he did play. I pretty much just throw out this season. Injuries happen.
2021: The Urban Meyer season. While 7.5 sacks isn't great, it did lead the team. He also had a forced fumble and an interception. Again, this was the Urban Meyer season. Most players looked bad this season. I think Allen didn't have a good team behind him. You also have to remember that this was a team that would earn the top pick in the following year's draft. Most sack leaders get a decent portion of their sacks when their team is up and often up big and the other team needs to throw. How often did this happen to the Jaguars in 2021? Most of our opponents were running the ball late in the game to kill the clock. It's hard to get a sack when the play call is a running play.
2022: Last year. He had 7 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and was 6th in the NFL in pressures. Many questioned him for "disappearing" in terms of sacks in the middle of the season. I think it had less to do with Josh Allen and was more about our secondary. His sackless streak "coincidentally" matches up with the period after Shaquill Griffin was injured and before Darious Williams was moved to outside cornerback. His sackless streak was when Tre Herndon was mostly playing outside cornerback. I think teams were telling their quarterbacks that if a defender gets close to them, just throw it to whoever Herndon is supposed to be covering. It's hard to get a sack when a receiver is wide open. I would note that Josh Allen still did a good job at getting pressures during these games. He just didn't get sacks. If you pro-rated the games where either Griffin or Williams were playing, Allen would have had double digit sacks over a full season. The 6th ranking in NFL in pressures is also key. Sacks can depend on circumstances. However, if you keep getting pressures, over time, the sacks usually come. The pressures, combined with a full year of Williams at outside corner, is why I thought Allen would have a big season in 2023. I thought we should have re-signed after the 2022 off-season as his price would likely go up after 2023.
2023: This year. He now has 7 sacks in 6 games. 8 if you count the one that was taken away on a very questionable penalty.
Let's extend him long term.
Whole lotta cope here. I agree with extending, but the amount of excuses you are making for the majority of his seasons is telling. We should not sign him with the thought that he will be a double didgit sack guy every year. This is a classic contract year performance.
I think he gets a Bradley Chubb type contract and he is better than Chubb, although a 4 yr deal instead of 5. 4 yr 85 -88 mil. 50 mil guaranteed
(10-16-2023, 05:26 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I'd pay Josh Allen what he's worth. A mid Edge Rusher and a top level interior lineman. Give him incentives and increase his pay by the cost of living. Just like all of us get. 10 million per year to 15 million per year. That's a nice little increase for a guy that is a Jaguar and we love, but isn't a real deal Edge Rusher that teams fear.
Dude's not elite. Don't get it twisted. Remember when some of you all were wanting to give Jawaan Taylor all the monies? The "good" Josh Allen is similar. Not to say he's trash. He's a good player and a great Locker Room guy. But you don't overpay for a guy that isn't elite now and won't ever be elite.
That’s not what he’s worth. He’s getting 15-20 a year minimum. That’s what even average Edge rushers are worth when they hit free agency. Allen is fringe top 10, he’s getting paid
(10-16-2023, 09:59 PM)NoShoes Wrote: [ -> ] (10-16-2023, 05:26 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I'd pay Josh Allen what he's worth. A mid Edge Rusher and a top level interior lineman. Give him incentives and increase his pay by the cost of living. Just like all of us get. 10 million per year to 15 million per year. That's a nice little increase for a guy that is a Jaguar and we love, but isn't a real deal Edge Rusher that teams fear.
Dude's not elite. Don't get it twisted. Remember when some of you all were wanting to give Jawaan Taylor all the monies? The "good" Josh Allen is similar. Not to say he's trash. He's a good player and a great Locker Room guy. But you don't overpay for a guy that isn't elite now and won't ever be elite.
That’s not what he’s worth. He’s getting 15-20 a year minimum. That’s what even average Edge rushers are worth when they hit free agency. Allen is fringe top 10, he’s getting paid
Exactly
Fans personal feelings have no bearing
It's the free market of NFL free agency positionally that decides the offers made and the minimum accepted
I don’t understand how hard it is for people to comprehend, a pass rusher not getting many sacks when you play on a poor team that is down 2/3 scores and other teams are running all second half, that has been the story of Josh’s career. He’s had 4 sacks in 3 games (should be 5) when we’ve taken an early lead. And it’s probably the only time in his career we’ve been up in 3 games for the majority of game.
(10-16-2023, 05:26 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I'd pay Josh Allen what he's worth. A mid Edge Rusher and a top level interior lineman. Give him incentives and increase his pay by the cost of living. Just like all of us get. 10 million per year to 15 million per year. That's a nice little increase for a guy that is a Jaguar and we love, but isn't a real deal Edge Rusher that teams fear.
Dude's not elite. Don't get it twisted. Remember when some of you all were wanting to give Jawaan Taylor all the monies? The "good" Josh Allen is similar. Not to say he's trash. He's a good player and a great Locker Room guy. But you don't overpay for a guy that isn't elite now and won't ever be elite.
uh....no? Gonna call for some citations here, bud. I think you're gradually straying from reality the deeper you dig your heels into this take.
And you need to change your first line. You'd OFFER Allen that sum. If you do, good news, you stilll got all that cash, cuz he's signing with the team that is not mired in delusion.
Josh Allen is probably going to stay in Jacksonville. I heard Prince Lawrence give an interview and was asked about Allen. He basically said you need guys like that. He stamped it.
Could mean that Lawrence cuts the team a little bit of a break come contract time which will leave them enough room to keep his guys around him.
Brian BaLdinger broke down some Jags/colts tape this morning and it's on his twitter feed for anyone using that app.
Good clips of Allen in there
He will get paid. We should be the ones that pay him.
(10-16-2023, 09:12 PM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-15-2023, 07:26 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's review Josh Allen's career:
2019: Rookie Season. Pro Bowler.
2020: Injury plagued season. He didn't play in half of the games and wasn't completely healthy for much of the half he did play. I pretty much just throw out this season. Injuries happen.
2021: The Urban Meyer season. While 7.5 sacks isn't great, it did lead the team. He also had a forced fumble and an interception. Again, this was the Urban Meyer season. Most players looked bad this season. I think Allen didn't have a good team behind him. You also have to remember that this was a team that would earn the top pick in the following year's draft. Most sack leaders get a decent portion of their sacks when their team is up and often up big and the other team needs to throw. How often did this happen to the Jaguars in 2021? Most of our opponents were running the ball late in the game to kill the clock. It's hard to get a sack when the play call is a running play.
2022: Last year. He had 7 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and was 6th in the NFL in pressures. Many questioned him for "disappearing" in terms of sacks in the middle of the season. I think it had less to do with Josh Allen and was more about our secondary. His sackless streak "coincidentally" matches up with the period after Shaquill Griffin was injured and before Darious Williams was moved to outside cornerback. His sackless streak was when Tre Herndon was mostly playing outside cornerback. I think teams were telling their quarterbacks that if a defender gets close to them, just throw it to whoever Herndon is supposed to be covering. It's hard to get a sack when a receiver is wide open. I would note that Josh Allen still did a good job at getting pressures during these games. He just didn't get sacks. If you pro-rated the games where either Griffin or Williams were playing, Allen would have had double digit sacks over a full season. The 6th ranking in NFL in pressures is also key. Sacks can depend on circumstances. However, if you keep getting pressures, over time, the sacks usually come. The pressures, combined with a full year of Williams at outside corner, is why I thought Allen would have a big season in 2023. I thought we should have re-signed after the 2022 off-season as his price would likely go up after 2023.
2023: This year. He now has 7 sacks in 6 games. 8 if you count the one that was taken away on a very questionable penalty.
Let's extend him long term.
Whole lotta cope here. I agree with extending, but the amount of excuses you are making for the majority of his seasons is telling. We should not sign him with the thought that he will be a double didgit sack guy every year. This is a classic contract year performance.
I agree -- why wasn't he dialed in like this last season? I'd extend him but push for incentives. If not, I'd franchise tag him. I'd also try to work a trade for Brian Burns or Danielle Hunter. If you're going to have a high priced unit, it should be D-line.
Also, I'm OK with letting Ridley walk to save money for Trevor, Allen, and Hunter/Burns. Ridley might get better as the season progresses, but he's not Davante Adams like he was hyped to be. Most teams' #1 corners can hold him in check. Kirk, Engram, and Zay are a solid, unselfish trio. A draft pick could be added to this mix.
(10-19-2023, 10:17 AM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: [ -> ] (10-16-2023, 09:12 PM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ]Whole lotta cope here. I agree with extending, but the amount of excuses you are making for the majority of his seasons is telling. We should not sign him with the thought that he will be a double didgit sack guy every year. This is a classic contract year performance.
I agree -- why wasn't he dialed in like this last season? I'd extend him but push for incentives. If not, I'd franchise tag him. I'd also try to work a trade for Brian Burns or Danielle Hunter. If you're going to have a high priced unit, it should be D-line.
Also, I'm OK with letting Ridley walk to save money for Trevor, Allen, and Hunter/Burns. Ridley might get better as the season progresses, but he's not Davante Adams like he was hyped to be. Most teams' #1 corners can hold him in check. Kirk, Engram, and Zay are a solid, unselfish trio. A draft pick could be added to this mix.
Purely anecdotal, but I remember JA dropping into coverage a LOT more last season. Kind of wondering if they were simplifying calls for TW (just rush, no coverage) especially early on. It seems like this season they are putting the onus on Allen to focus on pass rush and much less coverage.
Could also be that if the LB corps are holding their own, we don't have to get nearly as fancy with pulling OLB into coverage.
Again, absolutely nothing concrete to base these on, but this D and last year's D seem significantly different in who is doing what, even if the same guys are on the field.
Allen has “risk” written all over him. It’s risky to not sign him because replacing his production would be difficult. It’s risky to sign him because you could be paying 20 million against the cap for a guy that doesn’t impact the game often enough.
Incentive based contract? I can agree with that but he’s going to go to the team that offers the most guaranteed money imo.
Trevor will get paid, the interior O-Line needs addressing as well as depth, Campbell and Cisco contracts are coming up, maybe no second round pick and Baalke is terrible in rounds 4-7.
(10-19-2023, 04:13 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]Allen has “risk” written all over him. It’s risky to not sign him because replacing his production would be difficult. It’s risky to sign him because you could be paying 20 million against the cap for a guy that doesn’t impact the game often enough.
Incentive based contract? I can agree with that but he’s going to go to the team that offers the most guaranteed money imo.
Trevor will get paid, the interior O-Line needs addressing as well as depth, Campbell and Cisco contracts are coming up, maybe no second round pick and Baalke is terrible in rounds 4-7.
Yeah. I get that when you try and weigh it all out on a balancing scale. It'll be tough no matter what direction they decide to go in.
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The floor for Allen's contract is likely a 4 year 100 mil. after the Sweat contract.
(11-04-2023, 02:38 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]The floor for Allen's contract is likely a 4 year 100 mil. after the Sweat contract.
If he gives a discount to stay here. I think he commands more on the street.
(11-04-2023, 03:34 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (11-04-2023, 02:38 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]The floor for Allen's contract is likely a 4 year 100 mil. after the Sweat contract.
If he gives a discount to stay here. I think he commands more on the street.
Nice to think about but an issue for after the season. Lot of time between then and now who knows what will happen? It would be nice to sign him.