Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Good for you. You're awesome.


Maybe one day I can achieve such blissful ignorance. Pray for me.

Actually you've exceeded the ignorance part.

Quote:Actually you've exceeded the ignorance part.

The sad part is, you still don't understand how bad you look. And my guess is, you'll respond to me to compound it.

Quote:The sad part is, you still don't understand how bad you look. And my guess is, you'll respond to me to compound it.

Yet... I... And every pessimist for the Jaguars... Look better than you dip [BLEEP].


I could be mistaken, but aren't you one of Gus' jock riders?


Who am I kidding? Of course you were.


Lol I'll stop talking when I'm wrong.

From the average standpoint this makes no sense.   However progress is all around.  The scoring improved,  the offense improved.  And lost two keys in Fowler and Marks. 

 

In a business you set out a plan.  And things happen what stuff gets delayed.  It stinks it is in the ticket holder expense.  However new practice field, new lockers, huge scoreboard, and a pool.  Not including great cell reception as well as wifi.  So not like saying forget the fans.

 

I am not on board with Gus.  However Wash seams like a hardworking no nonsense guy.  And our d providing we get some good FA and hit on most of our picks.  Could make us 500 or better next year. 

 

No one said playoffs or bust. 

 

The whole foundation when gus and dave took over was in shambles.  Had to rebuild it all and start fresh.   We may have won the Afc South if Marks and Fowler were there who knows. 

 

I just want a winning record or at least 500 for 2016.    And look forward to see the Free Agents we get and Draft picks. 

Quote:That's actually more than just my opinion, the majority of Jag fans would expect to be able to defend Brian Hoyer after a three year rebuild.


But you're right, it HAS taken that long, mostly because we have a clown for a head coach.


Slow roster build?

Too many key pieces missing?


Who's fault is that?


You don't think that maybe... The guy that was saying this team was "built"... Was actually full of [BAD WORD REMOVED] the whole time?

Here's something to think about...After a couple years, JDR had no pass rush and used the same crappy soft zone Gus is using now... It didn't get better with Mel Tucker as interim HC, and it wasn't fixed with Mularky either...So through 3 HCs and an interim HC the same problem(s) exist...That being said, it would seem that it's more of a personnel problem than a coaching problem...

 

3 separate HCs with the same problem(s) would certainly indicate a lack of talent...

Quote:Here's something to think about...After a couple years, JDR had no pass rush and used the same crappy soft zone Gus is using now... It didn't get better with Mel Tucker as interim HC, and it wasn't fixed with Mularky either...So through 3 HCs and an interim HC the same problem(s) exist...That being said, it would seem that it's more of a personnel problem than a coaching problem...


3 separate HCs with the same problem(s) would certainly indicate a lack of talent...

Because Jack Del Rio, Mel Tucker, Mike Mularkey, AND Gus Bradley use the same defensive scheme?

Quote:Because Jack Del Rio, Mel Tucker, Mike Mularkey, AND Gus Bradley use the same defensive scheme?

they all had ZERO pass rush, and used the same crappy soft zone coverage...THAT is what the problem is...scheme doesn't matter, None of them could generate a pass rush nor cover receivers...The problem with the defense goes back farther than Gus's tenure here

The D coach has to get grown men to focus and respect him.   A lot harder then in college when men have the drive and desire to make it at the NFL Level.  They already made it.   So it is easy to say we'll the drive is the super bowl. 

 

But at the end of the day to many the playoffs and super bowl is just another game.  So that is why it is highly important to get the right guys in there with that drive and focus and the the right coach to push them.

 

Just like at our normal every day jobs our drive and desire was the interview and once in to pass the Probation period.  And then the companys rewards matter to the right team.  The others are just cruising along doing their job.   No difference.   Media makes it look more glamorous then it really is to the player.

Quote:they all had ZERO pass rush, and used the same crappy soft zone coverage...THAT is what the problem is...scheme doesn't matter, None of them could generate a pass rush nor cover receivers...The problem with the defense goes back farther than Gus's tenure here

We've had zero pass rush for 15 years now.


Yea, all of those coaches run completely different defenses... But yea...


lol people on this board have no clue what they speak of.

Arguing with an idiot is counter-productive... Ol' Joe will beat you with experience.

Quote:That's actually more than just my opinion, the majority of Jag fans would expect to be able to defend Brian Hoyer after a three year rebuild.

But you're right, it HAS taken that long, mostly because we have a clown for a head coach.


Slow roster build?

Too many key pieces missing?


Who's fault is that?


You don't think that maybe... The guy that was saying this team was "built"... Was actually full of [BAD WORD REMOVED] the whole time?

For the purposes of the post, I do not specifically absolve Bradley.

 

However, your logic here is baffling.

 

We were the worst team in football in 2012. This team was about as devoid of talent as you could find.

 

This team has had three drafts.  How many quality starters do you think a team starting at rock bottom should get per draft?

 

Does development factor into this at all?  Assuming, for argument's sake, a team starting at rock bottom should expect 7 new starters per draft, is it reasonable to expect all of these new starters to be able to contribute at a high level immediately, or is progression from the rookie season to subsequent seasons more likely?

Quote:For the purposes of the post, I do not specifically absolve Bradley.

 

However, your logic here is baffling.

 

We were the worst team in football in 2012. This team was about as devoid of talent as you could find.

 

This team has had three drafts.  How many quality starters do you think a team starting at rock bottom should get per draft?

 

Does development factor into this at all?  Assuming, for argument's sake, a team starting at rock bottom should expect 7 new starters per draft, is it reasonable to expect all of these new starters to be able to contribute at a high level immediately, or is progression from the rookie season to subsequent seasons more likely?

 

This team bought enough band aids to be substantially better than they were. The coaching staff did not get them to function at their potential and that is their number one responsibility.

Quote:This team bought enough band aids to be substantially better than they were. The coaching staff did not get them to function at their potential and that is their number one responsibility.

So which one of these "band aids" was the catalyst that, absent Gus Bradley, would have otherwise catapulted this team to 10-6?

Quote:For the purposes of the post, I do not specifically absolve Bradley.


However, your logic here is baffling.


We were the worst team in football in 2012. This team was about as devoid of talent as you could find.


This team has had three drafts. How many quality starters do you think a team starting at rock bottom should get per draft?


Does development factor into this at all? Assuming, for argument's sake, a team starting at rock bottom should expect 7 new starters per draft, is it reasonable to expect all of these new starters to be able to contribute at a high level immediately, or is progression from the rookie season to subsequent seasons more likely?

First of I want to say I truly enjoy reading your post but I have to ask why do you still try to make things make sense to people who just don't get it? We just watched Ted Ginn ball out last nigh and it took this man all of 9 years to look like a competent wideout. These guys think we are supposed to draft 5th and 6th rounds and they play like probowlers. They can't understand how bad this team was in 2012. They believe players like Bradon Marshall and Pot Roast would have carried us to the playoffs.



Just look at the teams playing in the super bowl. They have 1st and 2nd rounds who can't get pt and we're over here looking for starters in the 3 and 4 rounds still lol. I agree with you to the T. I just wish more here could understand what you are saying.

Quote:For the purposes of the post, I do not specifically absolve Bradley.


However, your logic here is baffling.


We were the worst team in football in 2012. This team was about as devoid of talent as you could find.


This team has had three drafts. How many quality starters do you think a team starting at rock bottom should get per draft?


Does development factor into this at all? Assuming, for argument's sake, a team starting at rock bottom should expect 7 new starters per draft, is it reasonable to expect all of these new starters to be able to contribute at a high level immediately, or is progression from the rookie season to subsequent seasons more likely?

Are you telling me Gus Bradley's only fault is that he hasn't had enough time? Not like bad personnel hiring, poor clock management, or inability to make halftime adjustments?


Talk about baffling.


We have had top draft picks, huge cap space, an owner willing to spend, pretty much anything a head coach needs to be successful.


I'm all for development, and realizes it takes time, but in year 3 of a rebuild,if you are getting destroyed by an easy schedule/ back up QBs, it's not development. Literally, the only thing that has developed ( the only thing that hasn't been a joke actually) are players named Blake, Allen, and Telvin. Everything else is a joke.


We had a brand new football team in 96 and only lost one more game than we did this year. Carolina had like 8 wins or something in their first season. Turning around a football team does take time, but seriously, besides the players I mentioned earlier, what has developed?



Dude got an extension and you know what his supporters had to say?


" it's not a big deal, it won't save him from being fired".


Yea. Awesome head coach.


BTW, what's keeping us from being the worst team in the league now? Is there a team we would play that would make you feel like victory was guaranteed?


Not me.

Quote:So which one of these "band aids" was the catalyst that, absent Gus Bradley, would have otherwise catapulted this team to 10-6?

 

Sadly we'll never know.

 

But we do know that the current coach came out and told us that he didn't know what else to do.

 

At that point it's time to part ways.

Quote:First of I want to say I truly enjoy reading your post but I have to ask why do you still try to make things make sense to people who just don't get it? We just watched Ted Ginn ball out last nigh and it took this man all of 9 years to look like a competent wideout. These guys think we are supposed to draft 5th and 6th rounds and they play like probowlers. They can't understand how bad this team was in 2012. They believe players like Bradon Marshall and Pot Roast would have carried us to the playoffs.



Just look at the teams playing in the super bowl. They have 1st and 2nd rounds who can't get pt and we're over here looking for starters in the 3 and 4 rounds still lol. I agree with you to the T. I just wish more here could understand what you are saying.

Thanks for the kind words about my posts.

 

There are several ways I can answer your question. 

 

Some would suggest I am a glutton for punishment.  Some would suggest I am slow, or just plain stubborn.

 

I think it's a combination of factors.  I absolutely love football and I love discussing/debating it.  I like the idea of being able to convince someone to at least question their logic and challenge their paradigms.  Not only that, I think some of the best and most interesting message board discussions involve topics that foster disagreement.  Though I often feel strongly about the principles I advance here, strong conviction is not necessarily a driving force.  Sometimes, I have a problem with a poster's logic/reasoning, but not necessarily with the conclusion.

 

In this part of the thread, I can understand Joe's sentiment that Bradley's record is unacceptable to most football fans and under most circumstances.  I do NOT, however, think he was being particularly reasonable in his rationale for reaching his conclusion, which is why I asked him the questions I did.

The panthers have quite a few older, some people thought washed up players.....of course they've rallied behind an up and coming quarterback who inspires them all.

 

Going to be an interesting SuperBowl.

The Old Pro that might be on the way out versus a Rising Star.

Couldn't have been scripted better. :thumbsup:

Jimmy’s and Joe’s or X’s and O’s?


Does Cleveland suck because they have had 8 bad coaches or because they haven’t found a QB?


Brady or Belichick?


 

My vote is for the players not the coaches.  You have to have good players to win regardless of the coach.


I’ve been on teams that won championships and teams that lost a lot.  The difference was never our coach.  The difference was who was pitching.

Quote:Are you telling me Gus Bradley's only fault is that he hasn't had enough time? Not like bad personnel hiring, poor clock management, or inability to make halftime adjustments?


Talk about baffling.

We have had top draft picks, huge cap space, an owner willing to spend, pretty much anything a head coach needs to be successful.


I'm all for development, and realizes it takes time, but in year 3 of a rebuild,if you are getting destroyed by an easy schedule/ back up QBs, it's not development. Literally, the only thing that has developed ( the only thing that hasn't been a joke actually) are players named Blake, Allen, and Telvin. Everything else is a joke.


We had a brand new football team in 96 and only lost one more game than we did this year. Carolina had like 8 wins or something in their first season. Turning around a football team does take time, but seriously, besides the players I mentioned earlier, what has developed?



Dude got an extension and you know what his supporters had to say?


" it's not a big deal, it won't save him from being fired".


Yea. Awesome head coach.


BTW, what's keeping us from being the worst team in the league now? Is there a team we would play that would make you feel like victory was guaranteed?


Not me.

No I am NOT saying Bradley's only fault was not having enough time.  You can certainly question the hiring of his coordinators, and perhaps some of his adjustments in game.  What I DO suggest is that his faults as a coach are NOT the primary reason why the team has struggled in his tenure.  The lack of talent from the top to the bottom of his roster has been the primary culprit. 

 

An examination of this team's first round draft picks from 2003-2012 shows exactly what Bradley and Caldwell were facing.

 

2003 QB Byron Leftwich

2004 WR Reggie Williams

2005 WR Matt Jones

2006 TE Marcedes Lewis

2007 S Reggie Nelson

2008 DE Derrick Harvey

2009 T Eugene Monroe

2010 DL Tyson Alualu

2011 QB Blaine Gabbert

2012 WR Justin Blackmon

 

That represents ten (10) years' worth of first round picks that should have formed a competent, credible nucleus of veteran talent around which to rebuild.  Right off the bat, before Caldwell has even arrived in 2013, five of them are gone.  Of the remaining 5 first round picks, Marcedes Lewis has been an average at best starter much of his time here, as was Monroe.  Alualu stunk and is a decent backup at best.  Gabbert was on the roster when Caldwell arrived, but was already well established as a bust.  Of those ten picks, only Justin Blackmon had any semblance to a guy you could label as a building block, but he has a serious substance abuse issue.  He had been suspended his first and second years, and has been suspended indefinitely now.

 

But the first round isn't the only round in which to find talent.  In fact, during Shack Harris' tenure, the second round picks were often very successful.  Let's look at those picks.

 

2003  CB Rashean Mathis

2004  FB Greg Jones

          LB Darryl Smith

2005  T Khalif Barnes

2006  RB Maurice Jones Drew

2007  Justin Durant

2008 DE Quentin Groves

2009 T Eben Britton

2010-N/A

2011-N/A

2012-DE Andre Branch

 

While that record of success with draft picks is better than the first round picks, notice what happened.  The picks from 2003-2007 were the most successful, but by the time Bradley and Caldwell got here, Mathis was in his 11th season and way past his prime.  Greg Jones was gone, and Darryl Smith was in his 30s and past his prime.  MJD was finished.  Justin Durant was gone.  The second round from 2008 on was an unmitigated disaster.  We didn't even have 2nd round picks in 2010 (due to the Derek Cox trade in 2009) and 2011 (due to the trade up for Gabbert).  Groves, Britton, and Branch have bombed.  So again, instead of having key positions filled with reasonably talented and experienced players, we had nothing resembling any basis for a young nucleus.

 

Let's suppose the marquee positions of any football team are QB, LT, pass rushing DE, and CB.  Those are typically the most important positions to fill on a team and the ones most difficult to find.

 

Upon his arrival, Caldwell had to fill:  QB, LT, pass rushing DE, and CB at the marquee positions, to say nothing of

 

RB

WR x2

LG

C

RG

RT

DT (at least 1)

LB

CB x 2

S (at least 1)

 

That's at least FIFTEEN (15) new starters the team had to come up with the day Caldwell and Bradley arrived.

 

This brings me to the points I made to you previously.

 

How many starters can you realistically expect a team to obtain through a draft?  For argument's sake, I threw out the number 7, but most reasonable people know that was not a realistic expectation.  How soon could you expect the rookies to play well?  While there have been some instances of rookies coming in and making immediate impact, the fact is, it usually takes a while for rookies to adjust to the NFL game-even assuming you hit on the pick (see Stroud, Marcus; see also Bortles, Blake; Watt, J.J.).  The point is, if you were to endeavor to build the team through the draft under the circumstances presented here, it was going to take a while.

 

(cont'd)