Figured we may as well give this its own thread. Gonna be a topic for a while.
Much ado has been generated over Allen's ability to affect the QB without actually registering sacks, and much more has been generated over the way he can seemingly do neither for a few games occasionally. The contract year performance is also a sticking point. Will he keep it up?
Is he worthy of a top ten pass rusher type of deal?
Top 16?
When it comes to the pressures vs sacks discussion - I really like this quote from the browns DL coach regarding the topic:
https://twitter.com/CodySuek/status/1712...18139?s=20
https://twitter.com/CodySuek/status/1712...18139?s=20
I want to resign him, still want to see how he does the rest of the year but I would tag him depending on what he is asking for
4 year 88 mil.
Went on record not too long ago on this subject. After being in the camp of "he sucks, trade him before the deadline" last year.
I am in the "I was wrong. We really need him now. Because we have nothing else" camp this year. I looked at the top guys in his catergory.
I think you can make him the 5th highest paid at his position. Just a notch above Joey Bosa and Randy Gregory who have underperformed due to a variety of combinations.
Would be something close to $16.5M per year to make that work. Would shoot for a 5 year deal. Maybe front load it or incentivize the hell out of it to make the 80 some odd million dollar deal cap friendly somewhat over time.
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It's going to be a tough decision. I think we all like Allen and think he's probably our best pass rusher. He's had some very up and down stretches over the years but some of that was probably down to the different coaching staff and him getting experience.
I agree with Caldrac above, $16.5m per year is what I'd expect it to be around. That's probably slightly overpaying for him but could easily see him getting that if he hit FA. I want to keep him as I think his best years are ahead of him and I think he'll get better. Not sure if he'll be 'best in the league' level but certainly a big weapon for us. I also want to keep him as I want us to start building some vets and having guys that can instill a culture on rookies and have that respect.
The only concern with paying Allen is we're going to have to let someone walk at some point. I know we have some big contracts that won't be renewed but just that can't pay everyone situation. We need to be able to bring in rookies that step up and contribute but that would also be true if we pay Lawrence, Ridley etc.
They really need Hamilton back to see if that helps both Allen and Walker.
(10-14-2023, 11:53 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It's going to be a tough decision. I think we all like Allen and think he's probably our best pass rusher. He's had some very up and down stretches over the years but some of that was probably down to the different coaching staff and him getting experience.
I agree with Caldrac above, $16.5m per year is what I'd expect it to be around. That's probably slightly overpaying for him but could easily see him getting that if he hit FA. I want to keep him as I think his best years are ahead of him and I think he'll get better. Not sure if he'll be 'best in the league' level but certainly a big weapon for us. I also want to keep him as I want us to start building some vets and having guys that can instill a culture on rookies and have that respect.
The only concern with paying Allen is we're going to have to let someone walk at some point. I know we have some big contracts that won't be renewed but just that can't pay everyone situation. We need to be able to bring in rookies that step up and contribute but that would also be true if we pay Lawrence, Ridley etc.
Agreed. We're going to lose somebody important one way or another. Unless Walker flips a light switch and comes on strong starting tomorrow it cements my beliefs even further in keeping Allen.
(10-14-2023, 11:57 AM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]They really need Hamilton back to see if that helps both Allen and Walker.
It would certainly help. They exteneded him already so we're hoping he's at least a long term solution to help bridge the gap we're going to inevitably face like all teams do come free agency losses.
I just want to see Walker find himself defensively as a pass rusher out there. Gives you that sense of security we need moving forward in the event we cannot retain Allen.
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I doubt the team will be able to replace Allen’s production with a low first imo unless Baalke lucks out. Some free agents to be, possibly. Not to mention a first may be needed to address the O-Line.
I’m just not ready to sign him to a long term deal yet. I need to see some consistency for at least two years back to back. I’m concerned that when he gets paid he reverts to being a “decent” player only. The Chiefs certainly paid Taylor and look at how that has worked out for them.
As of now I am leaning toward tagging him. Yes, that might be overpaying him, but only for one year.
(10-14-2023, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 11:53 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It's going to be a tough decision. I think we all like Allen and think he's probably our best pass rusher. He's had some very up and down stretches over the years but some of that was probably down to the different coaching staff and him getting experience.
I agree with Caldrac above, $16.5m per year is what I'd expect it to be around. That's probably slightly overpaying for him but could easily see him getting that if he hit FA. I want to keep him as I think his best years are ahead of him and I think he'll get better. Not sure if he'll be 'best in the league' level but certainly a big weapon for us. I also want to keep him as I want us to start building some vets and having guys that can instill a culture on rookies and have that respect.
The only concern with paying Allen is we're going to have to let someone walk at some point. I know we have some big contracts that won't be renewed but just that can't pay everyone situation. We need to be able to bring in rookies that step up and contribute but that would also be true if we pay Lawrence, Ridley etc.
Agreed. We're going to lose somebody important one way or another. Unless Walker flips a light switch and comes on strong starting tomorrow it cements my beliefs even further in keeping Allen.
(10-14-2023, 11:57 AM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]They really need Hamilton back to see if that helps both Allen and Walker.
It would certainly help. They exteneded him already so we're hoping he's at least a long term solution to help bridge the gap we're going to inevitably face like all teams do come free agency losses.
I just want to see Walker find himself defensively as a pass rusher out there. Gives you that sense of security we need moving forward in the event we cannot retain Allen.
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Your absolutely right. You would hope Walker would start to dominate more and have those stand out plays where he wrecks a play. It just isn't happening for him yet and I think we all hope he can become that guy but the drop off behind Allen is quite scary, that's why keeping Allen feels the right move right now.
I think we'll add to the Dline in the draft, maybe some FA depth and I hope Walker doesn't end up like Chaisson.
(10-14-2023, 03:17 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. We're going to lose somebody important one way or another. Unless Walker flips a light switch and comes on strong starting tomorrow it cements my beliefs even further in keeping Allen.
It would certainly help. They exteneded him already so we're hoping he's at least a long term solution to help bridge the gap we're going to inevitably face like all teams do come free agency losses.
I just want to see Walker find himself defensively as a pass rusher out there. Gives you that sense of security we need moving forward in the event we cannot retain Allen.
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Your absolutely right. You would hope Walker would start to dominate more and have those stand out plays where he wrecks a play. It just isn't happening for him yet and I think we all hope he can become that guy but the drop off behind Allen is quite scary, that's why keeping Allen feels the right move right now.
I think we'll add to the Dline in the draft, maybe some FA depth and I hope Walker doesn't end up like Chaisson.
If Walker busts Baalke has to go. Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
I was one who was arguing for extending Josh Allen this past off-season. He was posed to have a good year and his price would only go up. We can't do anything about that now, but yes, we should re-sign him to a long term deal.
(10-14-2023, 03:22 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 03:17 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Your absolutely right. You would hope Walker would start to dominate more and have those stand out plays where he wrecks a play. It just isn't happening for him yet and I think we all hope he can become that guy but the drop off behind Allen is quite scary, that's why keeping Allen feels the right move right now.
I think we'll add to the Dline in the draft, maybe some FA depth and I hope Walker doesn't end up like Chaisson.
If Walker busts Baalke has to go. Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
Agreed. He went out on a massive limb to make the pick. Doug probably warned, "you're overthinking this." And then Shad handed him a rope and chimed in, "are you sure you want to do this?"
(10-14-2023, 04:53 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 03:22 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]If Walker busts Baalke has to go. Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
Agreed. He went out on a massive limb to make the pick. Doug probably warned, "you're overthinking this." And then Shad handed him a rope and chimed in, "are you sure you want to do this?"
Based on the tea leaves l was reading in the post draft pressers - the Walker pick was what Caldwell wanted.
Baalke emphasized collaboration with the coaching staff in several post draft pressers that year and Caldwell couldn't wipe the grin off of his face in his post draft presser. (just did a search for that one to post here and I can't find it)
Baalke could have vetoed of course and he went along - but I really think he gave his DC what he wanted in Walker.
I'm still pretty optimistic he starts to come on this year. His pressure rate is up in 5 games from what is was last year. He may start getting home soon despite the obvious need to learn some technique working from the outside and using his hands effectively.
Annnnyway.... I'd like to see Allen re-signed, but it would sting a bit to pay him more than 20 mil a year if he doesn't have a fantastic season. The contract year uptick sticks in my craw. He's off to a good start this year for sure, though.
Should have already extended him, but of course the team doesn't and now it's going to bite us in the [BLEEP] regardless of what happens. He either walks and we lose him, or we have to pay him a crap load more than we would of had to this past off season, or the season prior.
(10-14-2023, 06:55 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Should have already extended him, but of course the team doesn't and now it's going to bite us in the [BLEEP] regardless of what happens. He either walks and we lose him, or we have to pay him a crap load more than we would of had to this past off season, or the season prior.
I think they gambled on Walker and unless he magically flips a switch and turns into a pass rushing speed demon that hits the QB soon they'll be forced to keep Allen.
That was more than likely the plan and hopes all along. At the minimum you tag him. So there's that and then you try and draft his replacement once again.
Not sure I want Baalke here for that decision though.
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Josh is exactly the kind of player I want on this team. If he can be signed for something like $50 million guaranteed money I'd do it in a second.
However if he's looking to set the market I'd probably look at franchising him with an eye toward trading him.
I doubt he keeps up the sack pace he's set so far, but if he does maybe we can get another team to give us a high pick or two (second or a couple of thirds?) for his rights.
Unfortunately this team has continually drafted so poorly that we had to spend tons on free agents, that may stop us from being able to afford Josh, which is a shame, because he's not just a great player on the field, he is off the field, too.
(10-14-2023, 07:09 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Josh is exactly the kind of player I want on this team. If he can be signed for something like $50 million guaranteed money I'd do it in a second.
However if he's looking to set the market I'd probably look at franchising him with an eye toward trading him.
I doubt he keeps up the sack pace he's set so far, but if he does maybe we can get another team to give us a high pick or two (second or a couple of thirds?) for his rights.
Unfortunately this team has continually drafted so poorly that we had to spend tons on free agents, that may stop us from being able to afford Josh, which is a shame, because he's not just a great player on the field, he is off the field, too.
I think they can work something out. You figure, Robinson is out next year. Jenkins more than likely as well.
I don't think his track record demands a market to be set at his position. TJ Watt has that set in stone for now.
I think $16.5M per year for 5 years, maybe front loaded with some heavy incentives towards the backend to motivate him as he gets up there in age is reasonable.
It puts him at 5th highest. Right above guys like Joey Bosa, Rashaan Gary and Randy Gregory. Which is fair.
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(10-14-2023, 07:23 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 07:09 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Josh is exactly the kind of player I want on this team. If he can be signed for something like $50 million guaranteed money I'd do it in a second.
However if he's looking to set the market I'd probably look at franchising him with an eye toward trading him.
I doubt he keeps up the sack pace he's set so far, but if he does maybe we can get another team to give us a high pick or two (second or a couple of thirds?) for his rights.
Unfortunately this team has continually drafted so poorly that we had to spend tons on free agents, that may stop us from being able to afford Josh, which is a shame, because he's not just a great player on the field, he is off the field, too.
I think they can work something out. You figure, Robinson is out next year. Jenkins more than likely as well.
I don't think his track record demands a market to be set at his position. TJ Watt has that set in stone for now.
I think $16.5M per year for 5 years, maybe front loaded with some heavy incentives towards the backend to motivate him as he gets up there in age is reasonable.
It puts him at 5th highest. Right above guys like Joey Bosa, Rashaan Gary and Randy Gregory. Which is fair.
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I don't think Jenkins is out next year unless his play declines. His dead cap would be over 7 mil. 2025 we have a lot of money come off the books and we will need it
(10-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 06:55 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Should have already extended him, but of course the team doesn't and now it's going to bite us in the [BLEEP] regardless of what happens. He either walks and we lose him, or we have to pay him a crap load more than we would of had to this past off season, or the season prior.
I think they gambled on Walker and unless he magically flips a switch and turns into a pass rushing speed demon that hits the QB soon they'll be forced to keep Allen.
That was more than likely the plan and hopes all along. At the minimum you tag him. So there's that and then you try and draft his replacement once again.
Not sure I want Baalke here for that decision though.
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Drafting Walker should have nothing to do with the decision to re-sign Allen or not. You need more than 1 pass rusher in this league. If we lose Allen we're [BLEEP]. They aren't going to be able to replace him.
(10-14-2023, 07:30 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I think they gambled on Walker and unless he magically flips a switch and turns into a pass rushing speed demon that hits the QB soon they'll be forced to keep Allen.
That was more than likely the plan and hopes all along. At the minimum you tag him. So there's that and then you try and draft his replacement once again.
Not sure I want Baalke here for that decision though.
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Drafting Walker should have nothing to do with the decision to re-sign Allen or not. You need more than 1 pass rusher in this league. If we lose Allen we're [BLEEP]. They aren't going to be able to replace him.
I hear you but I feel like that is there logic. To be fair. Josh hasn't hit home like this sack wise since his rookie season.
He has plenty of time to set the new franchise mark. I know you need two guys but it feels like you shouldn't have to invest top picks like we did in Chaisson and Walker to compensate.
This front office being dog [BLEEP] at finding good impact players along the lines consistently on both sides continues to haunt them.
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(10-14-2023, 07:30 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 07:23 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I think they can work something out. You figure, Robinson is out next year. Jenkins more than likely as well.
I don't think his track record demands a market to be set at his position. TJ Watt has that set in stone for now.
I think $16.5M per year for 5 years, maybe front loaded with some heavy incentives towards the backend to motivate him as he gets up there in age is reasonable.
It puts him at 5th highest. Right above guys like Joey Bosa, Rashaan Gary and Randy Gregory. Which is fair.
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I don't think Jenkins is out next year unless his play declines. His dead cap would be over 7 mil. 2025 we have a lot of money come off the books and we will need it
We'll see. Tough cuts ahead and decisions to be made soon for sure.
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(10-14-2023, 07:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 07:30 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Drafting Walker should have nothing to do with the decision to re-sign Allen or not. You need more than 1 pass rusher in this league. If we lose Allen we're [BLEEP]. They aren't going to be able to replace him.
I hear you but I feel like that is there logic. To be fair. Josh hasn't hit home like this sack wise since his rookie season.
He has plenty of time to set the new franchise mark. I know you need two guys but it feels like you shouldn't have to invest top picks like we did in Chaisson and Walker to compensate.
This front office being dog [BLEEP] at finding good impact players along the lines consistently on both sides continues to haunt them.
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There's far more that goes into it than just Sacks.. People really need to stop focusing on just Sacks in judging if a player is good or not.