(05-31-2020, 11:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ][BLEEP] all this. [BLEEP] everyone who wants to say there’s no racism involved. [BLEEP] everyone who’s of the opinion that anyone with a differing opinion is a terrorist. [BLEEP] MAGA, [BLEEP] BLM, [BLEEP] looters, [BLEEP] pigs. If something as simple as acknowledging that, you know, maybe it’s not ok for civilians to chase down and murder a man, or that it’s not ok for a cop to kneel on someone’s throat for eight minutes, or that it’s not ok for a government to systematically ignore 10% of its own population, if all of those concepts are either foreign to you or somehow the work of Antifa, then I’ll pray for you, and that’s the nicest thing I have to say to you. I’m sick of this echo chamber. Might as well just call it the Hannity Forum.
*edit: fixed typos
eric holder should be offended.
(05-31-2020, 12:06 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 12:01 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's not ok for those guys to kill the jogger. It's not ok for the cop to cause that man's death. It's also not ok to burn down our cities, rob our neighbors, and attack our police officers because those things happened.
I agree.
It’s also not Ok to blame everything bad that happens on a certain political party which is exactly what happens on this board.
How Many elected republicans are there in Minnesota again? I mean... Just saying...
(05-31-2020, 12:09 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 11:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ][BLEEP] all this. [BLEEP] everyone who wants to say there’s no racism involved. [BLEEP] everyone who’s of the opinion that anyone with a differing opinion is a terrorist. [BLEEP] MAGA, [BLEEP] BLM, [BLEEP] looters, [BLEEP] pigs. If something as simple as acknowledging that, you know, maybe it’s not ok for civilians to chase down and murder a man, or that it’s not ok for a cop to kneel on someone’s throat for eight minutes, or that it’s not ok for a government to systematically ignore 10% of its own population, if all of those concepts are either foreign to you or somehow the work of Antifa, then I’ll pray for you, and that’s the nicest thing I have to say to you. I’m sick of this echo chamber. Might as well just call it the Hannity Forum.
*edit: fixed typos
eric holder should be offended.
(05-31-2020, 12:06 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I agree.
It’s also not Ok to blame everything bad that happens on a certain political party which is exactly what happens on this board.
How Many elected republicans are there in Minnesota again? I mean... Just saying...
Good grief.
Thanks for proving the point.
To the charge that "no one's listening," "we're voiceless etc. That's just not the case.
1.) Black people own the largest political party in the country. If it wasn't for 90% plus patronage from black Americans that translates into roughly 10 million plus raw vote advantage for Democrats then that party would cease to exist. That's a large reason why things like Gay Marriage and other uber left items can't make it thought state legislatures or ballot initiatives.
2.) No one listened to Collin Kaepernick: Collin Kaepernick is a multi-million dollar spokesman for one of the largest companies in the world. Every time he tweets or takes a shower it shows up on CNN. Because of his actions Jerry Jones was on the floor of his stadium kneeling with players. The NFL gave 10's of millions of dollars to charitable causes. Jay Z was appointed as essentially a defacto owner. They were considering a rule to give black coaches and GMs more draft picks and decided instead to expand the Rooney Rule.
3.) from 2009 to 2016 the AG for the United States were both Black. Eric Holder and Lorreta Lynch may have had their short comings, but no one thinks that they were shills for the "MAN". They both had the ability to oversee any police action that they deemed was a violation of civil rights and prosecute those they deemed responsible. This includes investigations of things like the Mike Brown Case, Freddie Gray, Eric Garner etc. Not only did they exercise that power, but they essentially took over certain police departments of the country and issued guidelines to others.
4.) In the Mike Brown Case specifically, you had a situation where people LIED TO A GRAND JURY about material facts in the case in order to frame someone who didn't look like them. That lie was then repeated on a loop by the Main Stream media as proof of the flying spaghetti monster "Systemic Racism". Up to the time that the Grand Jury declined charges the Local Prosecutor and the police were in constant contact with protesters about the role the police department had in civil unrest and what steps they could take to bridge mistrust. After several black witnesses exonerated Darren Wilson, and the autopsy results showed that he was a.) not shot in the back b.) didn't have his hands up (confirmed by the autopsy initiated by the BLACK USAG) they still burned the city down.
5.) All policing, by definition, is locally managed. As pointed out in this thread, the overwhelming number of major urban areas in this country are run by Democrats. Going back to the Freddie Gray Case, they Prosecutor was a (FINE) Black woman, the Mayor was a (FINE) black woman, the police chief was a minority, the Governor was a democrat, the USAG was Black and the President was black. That's a far cry from protesting citizens openly run by members of the white citizens council. Again, they still had riots and childishness. Killer Mike (while literally wearing a shirt that read "Kill Your Masters") talked about the need to organize, strategize and beat up prosecutors we don't like at the ballot office. For some reason he neglected to mention that the prosecutors in most cases were supported in overwhelming fashion by black Americans or are POC's Themselves.
6.) The most conservative President elected in 4 decades just passed CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM. Specifically to alleviate or overcome previous sentencing disparities etc. We let thousands of POCs out of jail through the first step act. His most visible ally on the state level just appointed two minority justices to the Florida Supreme Court. So much for the Racist in Chief.
7.) Since the outbreak of the Ferguson Riots, jurisdictions have adopted different standards and deployment patterns to limit police interactions with black suspects. The results? Increased crime, property damage, and loss of life in the very communities people claim to want to protect.
Police kill nearly twice as many white people than they do black people, but, around 60% of the people in the US are white compared to only around 15% being black. White people are killed by the police,too, just not at the same rate as do black people.
(05-31-2020, 12:32 PM)Olive Wrote: [ -> ]Police kill nearly twice as many white people than they do black people, but, around 60% of the people in the US are white compared to only around 15% being black. White people are killed by the police,too, just not at the same rate as do black people.
Females make up over 50% of the population while less than 5% of people killed by police. If you want to use your argument then you'd have to say that males are discriminated against far more than any other minority group.
But if you divide by the number of arrests for violent crimes the gender disparity mostly goes away and whites are twice as likely to be shot as blacks.
(05-31-2020, 12:32 PM)Olive Wrote: [ -> ]Police kill nearly twice as many white people than they do black people, but, around 60% of the people in the US are white compared to only around 15% being black. White people are killed by the police,too, just not at the same rate as do black people.
There are definitely some concerning statistics about the rate at which the police kill people, but in 2019 all of 1,099 people were killed by police in a country of 300+ million people. That is without a notation on the cause or reason for the killing. Now of those 1,099 people AAs are an outsized portion of that number, but AAa also commit an outsized number of the crimes. There's a problem, but the problem is not just with the police.
(05-31-2020, 12:06 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 12:01 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's not ok for those guys to kill the jogger. It's not ok for the cop to cause that man's death. It's also not ok to burn down our cities, rob our neighbors, and attack our police officers because those things happened.
I agree.
It’s also not Ok to blame everything bad that happens on a certain political party which is exactly what happens on this board.
I agree, the way problems that have existed for 20 years now are blamed on Trump is both funny and sad.
Oh wait, that isn't what you meant...
POTUS said ANTIFA will be considered a terrorist group, putting the left in a very tough position to have to defend them.
Again, chess vs checkers.
(05-31-2020, 12:48 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 12:32 PM)Olive Wrote: [ -> ]Police kill nearly twice as many white people than they do black people, but, around 60% of the people in the US are white compared to only around 15% being black. White people are killed by the police,too, just not at the same rate as do black people.
There are definitely some concerning statistics about the rate at which the police kill people, but in 2019 all of 1,099 people were killed by police in a country of 300+ million people. That is without a notation on the cause or reason for the killing. Now of those 1,099 people AAs are an outsized portion of that number, but AAa also commit an outsized number of the crimes. There's a problem, but the problem is not just with the police.
(05-31-2020, 12:06 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I agree.
It’s also not Ok to blame everything bad that happens on a certain political party which is exactly what happens on this board.
I agree, the way problems that have existed for 20 years now are blamed on Trump is both funny and sad.
Oh wait, that isn't what you meant...
Cleatwood, you just got worked.
Delete your account.
(05-31-2020, 12:57 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]POTUS said ANTIFA will be considered a terrorist group, putting the left in a very tough position to have to defend them.
Again, chess vs checkers.
(05-31-2020, 12:48 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]There are definitely some concerning statistics about the rate at which the police kill people, but in 2019 all of 1,099 people were killed by police in a country of 300+ million people. That is without a notation on the cause or reason for the killing. Now of those 1,099 people AAs are an outsized portion of that number, but AAa also commit an outsized number of the crimes. There's a problem, but the problem is not just with the police.
I agree, the way problems that have existed for 20 years now are blamed on Trump is both funny and sad.
Oh wait, that isn't what you meant...
Cleatwood, you just got worked.
Delete your account.
Oh is that how it works? Because if so, you should most likely delete yours as well.
(05-31-2020, 12:46 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 12:32 PM)Olive Wrote: [ -> ]Police kill nearly twice as many white people than they do black people, but, around 60% of the people in the US are white compared to only around 15% being black. White people are killed by the police,too, just not at the same rate as do black people.
Females make up over 50% of the population while less than 5% of people killed by police. If you want to use your argument then you'd have to say that males are discriminated against far more than any other minority group.
But if you divide by the number of arrests for violent crimes the gender disparity mostly goes away and whites are twice as likely to be shot as blacks.
I was making no argument, only providing statistics. Police brutality doesn't just happen to black people, and I would surmise that the vast majority of Police are upstanding law enforcement officers.
Martin Luther King did associate with communists and had affairs. Neither of those accusations are useful in discrediting his primary goal of brotherly unity. It is still relevant... not as a way to discredit King, but to show the tactics "progressives" have used and will use to undermine American culture. They were opportunistic predators that attached themselves to any cause that could undermine a shared identity. This by no means suggests that blacks were treated fairly. No. The cause was real. The struggle and mistreatment of the black community was a perfect place to foment dissent and generate influence for their cause. As the Cold War escalated, these groups were driven underground, but the tactics and goals haven't changed.
To this day, progressives (specifically those in positions of influence) don't care about any of the ideology that made America unique. They no longer claim to want to refine the parts that are broken (and there were broken parts, certainly). They want to replace it with what they believe to be a superior system. There are those that believe it can be done via conversation and influence. Some take it too far. They rewrite history, when convenient, and twist facts to support narratives that will expand their base. They change language to adjust the narrative and demagoguery to silence their opponents. In the last 10 years, I have watched liberal minded thinkers move drastically to the left to keep up with the narrative that's being crafted. This gives rise to the ANTIFA types, which is spreading in most major cities. These people are much more overt about their goals and actively champion destroying America. Not only do the appropriate the black cause to advance their own agenda, they undermine good will and shared identity in the process. So, much like yesterday, I believe progressives align themselves with minorities not because they want justice, but because they see it as a bridge to socialism and control. Then, when the inevitable pushback follows the riots, they slink into the shadows and move onto the next cause.
When I point out the numbers, I do so to specifically undermine the narrative that is being spun by progressives. It's not a tool that I wield with the hopes of silencing the black voice. I am just fighting a different enemy. I believe that destroying the narrative is important to healing our nation. Truth be told, I am all for looking at biases in the justice system. I have no doubt that bias plays a role in sentencing. We have to figure out a way to remove it, but it's clear that we are looking into it and we are improving. Even the article you linked, which was designed to condemn bias, made it clear that this is a problem Florida recognizes and wants to solve. Even assuming intrinsic bias exists and is a real problem (which I have no doubt plays some role; it's clearly evident in the sentencing between men and women), the solution is not patently clear or achievable for a multitude of reasons. I could go on about that, but it's really speculative. It's not like we have a clear understanding of how bias works or ways to correct it. Personally, I believe the best way to remove bias is for a group to share a culture, which is why I think identity politics actually undermines unity and feeds intrinsic bias.
Ultimately, I agree with Bullseye, that I don't see things getting better any time soon. You ask the question how do blacks protest? Here's a start: Get rid of the leaders that exploit them. I think blacks need to recognize that the democratic party doesn't care about them except as a numbers game. They need to re-embrace the idea of the black family unit. They need to reject the current iteration of welfare that cripples their communities and stifles their economic growth. They should reject gangs that ensnare their youth and encourage the pursuit of middle class careers. I agree that they should to arm themselves and start policing their own. These aren't my ideas. Malcolm X proposed them. Imo, the black community lost a powerful voice when he was mercilessly gunned down. Malcolm X understood the power of autonomy (post nation of Islam), and would have loved to see how he would have helped shaped the black psyche had he not been mercilessly gun-downed.
Antifa isn't even an organisation so he's basically just giving the cops carte blanche to deem anybody antifa and brutalize them
(05-31-2020, 01:46 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Antifa isn't even an organisation so he's basically just giving the cops carte blanche to deem anybody antifa and brutalize them
Will allow the use of federal resources to go after the terrorist and maybe make Jimmy, who resides in his mom's basement think twice before brutalizing society.
(05-31-2020, 01:52 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 01:46 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Antifa isn't even an organisation so he's basically just giving the cops carte blanche to deem anybody antifa and brutalize them
Will allow the use of federal resources to go after the terrorist and maybe make Jimmy, who resides in his mom's basement think twice before brutalizing society.
white Christians in America have committed much worse domestic terrorism than antifa, maybe they should be dealt with first
(05-31-2020, 06:59 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 12:49 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]While I am here, I want to address the self righteous finger wagging from the right about the unrest we are currently experiencing throughout the country.
First let me start by saying that I have always enjoyed talking with you Bullseye. I have always respected your intellect, reasoning and the way you articulate yourself. That being said, as a POC, I have to disagree with everything about your basic premise in the strongest terms possible.
Your servility to those that hate us is your choice. I have no obligation or inclination to capitualate.
Throughout this country's history, we tried the non violent route against those of you who refused to offer us the same courtesy.
From this point on you are trying to justify violence and destruction against innocent people.
Justify it? No. Explain it? Yes.
Also during the Civil Rights era, there were black olympians who won medals who gave raised fists on the medal platform-a silent form of political expression. They were stripped of their medals.
Kaepernick silently kneeled on the sidelines-even consulted with a former Green Beret, on how to best express displeasure over the extrajudicial killings of African Americans by police and others who wrongfully asserted some sort of authority.
That's just a lie. In this country the legal expression of justice is DUE PROCESS. Whether it's Mike Brown, Rice, Castillo, Aubery, Floyd etc. there's no case in this country (that I'm aware of) in which the person of colors death wasn't investigated and prosecuted with the basic respect that we afford to anyone of any color. Not liking a verdict, charge, or outcome doesn't make an action EXTRAJUDICIAL.
There is absolutely NOTHING false in either of my statements. The olympians were stripped of their medals. Kaepernick kneeled on the sidelines. Kaepernick consulted with a Green beret on how to best express dissent. Right wingers trashed him for it. Furthermore, I have zero problems with Due process being afforded to accused police. Howeveer, your argument, or what you don't say in your argument, speaks volumes. In your pathetic attempt to jump on the proverbial grenade to defend in inherently unjust system, not once-either expressly or tacitly-do you give ANY consideration whatsoever to the due process rights of African Americans killed in these various instances, which is endemic with right wingers. Whether you deemed them guilty or not of the underlying crimes, if any, that merited the confrontation with police, they never had the chance to be tried on the basis of fact or law. Their right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," their rights to substantive and procedural "Due process," their right to equal protection under the law is of ZERO import to you. That is the point you spectacularly miss. Everything else stems towards your indifference to African American rights
He too was vilified by the right. He was called a traitor, disrespectful, and players who knelt were called sons of [BLEEP] by the racist in chief, urged to leave the country and blackballed from the league.
He was vilified by the right, and that's nothing compared to the disrespect he should have gotten. Anyone who posts about "revolution" while the city burns should be charged with conspiracy to commit the same property damage, violence and chaos that is being perpetrated on this country right now.
[BLEEP]! His vilification by the right began long before he said anything about revolution and long before Minneapolis burned. Furthermore if he DID talk revolution, so [BLEEP] what?!? Throughout the Obama presidency, there were constant references to 2nd Amendment remedies, and quotes about the Tree of Liberty being refreshed by the blood of tyrants from the right. The only tyranny from the Obama Administration is presidenting while black.
But throughout that time, those on the right offered no constructive criticism regarding how African Americans should express dissent. I know I have asked numerous times over the years and have received no answer, other than to be called an "outside agitator" (despite at the time living here almost 30 years, and being told in myriad ways to shut up, some by past members of the earlier iteration of this board.
Another lie. This isn't the first time this has happened. Ferguson, Baltimore etc. Don't break things. Don't set things on fire. Don't take things that aren't yours. It's seems pretty simple to me.
Fine. King set nothing on fire. King didn't break things. The onlympians didn't take things not belonging to them. Kaepernick did none of those things, yet each and every one of them were castigated by the right for taking a stand. All of them had their patriotism questioned and charachter assailled by having the temerity to demand what is cnstitutionally promised to all Americans.
As unfortunate as these things were, they don't tell the complete story.
A few years back, the overwhelmingly white Bundy militia were protesting the government's imposition of a grazing fee. When the government tried to collect on years of unpaid grazing fees from the Bundy's, his heavily armed supporters trained high caliber weapons upon the federal law enforcement from strategic points surrounding the scene. Notably absent from the conservative discussion were the talk of noncompliance. Non compliance with directives from law enforcement was the blanket justification used to excuse the police killings of various African Americans. Hannity and others on the right labeld them as heroes. There were no shootings by law enforcement. There were no fire hoses or tear gas deployed.
More recently, groups of armed white "militia men," some flying Nazi and Confederate flags, stormed state government buildings in Michigan. They were belligerent towards law enforcement. They too, were hailed as heroes by the right. They received encouragement by the bastard in the white house. Notably absent from the discourse were assaults on the patriotism of the Nazi and confederate flag fliers, even though they represented entities that actually waged war against the United States, killing thousands of American soldiers. The right was silent on the disrespect of the military they alleged Kaepernick and the kneeling NFL players displayed. There was no talk about the lack of deference towards law enforcement. Just adulation.
Taken together the message from the right is tacit but clear... the conclusion iinescapable: the African American First Amendment right to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances is inferior to those of the white man to that of the white man to redress grievances- peacably or otherwise-if it exists at all.
Actually Hannity, since you bring him up, condemned the Michigan Protests. I personally don't have any affection for the Bundy response. But that doesn't change the fact that in both of those cases you had demonstrations against STATE AGRESSORS and you didn't have wanton property destruction, theft, violence against police officers etc. To compare either of those demonstrations to the carnage being blared across our TV screens is beneath you.
Hannity's "chiding" of the Michigan protest was more about its impact on law enforcement. He did NOT assail the patriotism of those nazi and Confederate flag flyers, and neither have you or any other conservative participating in this thread. Furthermore, as I said above, there was no wanton property destryction when Kaepernick and the NFL players kneeled. You are purposely conflating the sequence of events. I would say that is beneath you, but conservatives generally are unprincipled, amoral and fundamentally dishonest, especially on matters of race. For you to be a conservative, such disingenuous claptrap is par for the course.
I reject any paradigm reflecting that. Hell, you guys are taking up arms because you can't get haircuts or having to wear masks during a pandemic. Certainly you would be furious if anyone suggested your first amendment rights are not to be respected.
Accordingly, those who do not acknowledge the blatant hypocrisy in those dissonant stances have lost any moral high ground to dictate how Americans express dissent.
And I reject any paradigm built on false equivalence.
See above. Zero false equivalency.
(05-31-2020, 07:06 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-30-2020, 10:44 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]But accepting, at face value your ludicrous assertion that most racism ended circa 1970 with the passage of the Civil Rights laws, it doesn't address the lingering effect that pre 1970 discrimination has. A key to wealth accumulation is the acquisition of real property. With redlining, the ability of African Americans to have access to loans to start businesses and acquire houses was constrained. Furthermore, to the extent African Americans could obtain mortgages, their options were limited to areas with suppressed property values. That limited generational wealth. Furthermore the fact that it took a series of comprehensive federal legislation and Supreme Court decisions (Not traditional notions of common human decency or Christian values) to eliminate racism from the country speaks volumes.
As to traditional notions of common human decency or values, that's an insult to all those who of their own volition fought and died for the ideal of common freedom since the inception of this country, specifically those who don't look like us who died in their teens to reunite the union, advance civil rights, oppose the ideals of past generations and embrace people who were different. And ultimately, the decisions of the supreme court and the legislation passed (starting with the slave amendments through the 60's) were a reflection of the economic realities won by black Americans that sacraficed more than you and I will ever know to bring forth talent, goods and services that created demand from every ilk in this country.
Complete [BLEEP].
I am eternally grateful to abolitionists like John Brown, founding members of the NAACP, the white freedom riders of the Civil Rights era, and countless others, to those whites speaking out against the injustice we've seen in the Floyd murder. But think about what you are saying. If this country were truly governed by traditional notions of common human decency, would their sacrifices have even been necessary? Would there have been a Confederacy and a civil war over slavery? Would the supreme court cases and the Civil Rights legislation have been necessary?
No, they wouldn't, unless you consider comprehensive racism to be consistent with traditional notions of common human decency.
(05-31-2020, 01:39 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]To this day, progressives (specifically those in positions of influence) don't care about any of the ideology that made America unique. They no longer claim to want to refine the parts that are broken (and there were broken parts, certainly). They want to replace it with what they believe to be a superior system. There are those that believe it can be done via conversation and influence. Some take it too far. They rewrite history, when convenient, and twist facts to support narratives that will expand their base. They change language to adjust the narrative and demagoguery to silence their opponents. In the last 10 years, I have watched liberal minded thinkers move drastically to the left to keep up with the narrative that's being crafted. This gives rise to the ANTIFA types, which is spreading in most major cities. These people are much more overt about their goals and actively champion destroying America. Not only do the appropriate the black cause to advance their own agenda, they undermine good will and shared identity in the process. So, much like yesterday, I believe progressives align themselves with minorities not because they want justice, but because they see it as a bridge to socialism and control. Then, when the inevitable pushback follows the riots, they slink into the shadows and move onto the next cause.
You're shadowboxing. Even Marx said that the new society would have birthmarks of the old. America will always be unique even if (God forbid) she gets taken over by communists. Anyone seeking elective office is by definition going for incremental change rather than revolution.
When I point out the numbers, I do so to specifically undermine the narrative that is being spun by progressives. It's not a tool that I wield with the hopes of silencing the black voice. I am just fighting a different enemy. I believe that destroying the narrative is important to healing our nation. Truth be told, I am all for looking at biases in the justice system. I have no doubt that bias plays a role in sentencing. We have to figure out a way to remove it, but it's clear that we are looking into it and we are improving. Even the article you linked, which was designed to condemn bias, made it clear that this is a problem Florida recognizes and wants to solve. Even assuming intrinsic bias exists and is a real problem (which I have no doubt plays some role; it's clearly evident in the sentencing between men and women), the solution is not patently clear or achievable for a multitude of reasons. I could go on about that, but it's really speculative. It's not like we have a clear understanding of how bias works or ways to correct it. Personally, I believe the best way to remove bias is for a group to share a culture, which is why I think identity politics actually undermines unity and feeds intrinsic bias.
Regardless of your intention, the sentiment above is "the reason we discriminate against you is that you talk, act, and pray differently than us. So be more like us, and we'll stop discriminating against you." It's despicable. "All you have to change is everything you are." No. So long as they don't hurt anybody, no subculture should have to change anything as a precondition to equal rights and opportunities. A more serious proposal would be something like, the trial judge presides over the sentencing hearing, but the sentence is decided by a different judge. That second judge would only ever read a transcript of the sentencing hearing, with racially identifying information removed. That might sound crazy to you, but asking a whole group of people to delete their 400-year-old culture sounds crazy to me.
Ultimately, I agree with Bullseye, that I don't see things getting better any time soon. You ask the question how do blacks protest? Here's a start: Get rid of the leaders that exploit them. I think blacks need to recognize that the democratic party doesn't care about them except as a numbers game. They need to re-embrace the idea of the black family unit. They need to reject the current iteration of welfare that cripples their communities and stifles their economic growth. They should reject gangs that ensnare their youth and encourage the pursuit of middle class careers. I agree that they should to arm themselves and start policing their own. These aren't my ideas. Malcolm X proposed them. Imo, the black community lost a powerful voice when he was mercilessly gunned down. Malcolm X understood the power of autonomy (post nation of Islam), and would have loved to see how he would have helped shaped the black psyche had he not been mercilessly gun-downed.
I know you're getting this from Sowell but it's half-baked. No-fault divorce and "great society" programs hit all parts of society at once. Poor black families started qualifying for food stamps the same day that poor white families did. Poor black couples started qualifying for no fault divorce the same day that white couples did. So, to the extent that there is a disparity of the presence of a father between black families and white families, is the disparity really correlated to race, or is it more correlated to income? Or is it more correlated to generational wealth? Because one federal subsidy that didn't hit all races at once is the subsidized mortgage. White folks started getting them around 1934, but black folks across all 50 states had to wait 34 more years to get theirs.
(05-31-2020, 02:21 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Complete [BLEEP].
I am eternally grateful to abolitionists like John Brown, founding members of the NAACP, the white freedom riders of the Civil Rights era, and countless others, to those whites speaking out against the injustice we've seen in the Floyd murder. But think about what you are saying. If this country were truly governed by traditional notions of common human decency, would their sacrifices have even been necessary? Would there have been a Confederacy and a civil war over slavery? Would the supreme court cases and the Civil Rights legislation have been necessary?
No, they wouldn't, unless you consider comprehensive racism to be consistent with traditional notions of common human decency.
Not trying to get in the middle of this, Bullseye, but do you know of people of any color that isn’t pissed to the max over the George Floyd murder? Every person I know are horrified by the actions of the officers that killed him, and most like myself believe all four officers should be facing way more charges than just the current charges against just one. I don’t think black or white people are divided on this murder. We agree, and also the vast majority also believe police forces in general do have officers that are racist, not all officers … but we do need more effort to identify and remove those officers.
(05-31-2020, 01:39 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Ultimately, I agree with Bullseye, that I don't see things getting better any time soon. You ask the question how do blacks protest? Here's a start: Get rid of the leaders that exploit them. I think blacks need to recognize that the democratic party doesn't care about them except as a numbers game. They need to re-embrace the idea of the black family unit. They need to reject the current iteration of welfare that cripples their communities and stifles their economic growth. They should reject gangs that ensnare their youth and encourage the pursuit of middle class careers. I agree that they should to arm themselves and start policing their own. These aren't my ideas. Malcolm X proposed them. Imo, the black community lost a powerful voice when he was mercilessly gunned down. Malcolm X understood the power of autonomy (post nation of Islam), and would have loved to see how he would have helped shaped the black psyche had he not been mercilessly gun-downed.
First, who African Americans choose to lead us is our choice, nobody else's.
From a purely theoretical standpoint, there is an argument to be made for more African Americans to be conservative. Having been previously denied the right to vote, it only makes sense that we'd use our franchise in accordance to our beliefs, interests, consciences, etc. Not being a monolith, it stands to reason some would choose various political parties. However, politics do not occur in a theoretical vacuum. There are real world concerns to weigh. Do we have a strength in numbers approach, or do we seek to have influence in both parties? It may well be the case the Democratic Party doesn't truly care about African Americans beyond the extent our voting block leads to political power (though there are certainly arguments against that proposition, and that is party ambivalence is also the case for just about any political constituency). But Democratic ambivalence towards African Americans is a far lesser evil than Republican HOSTILITY to African Americans. Had republicans not so thoroughly aligned their platform with the racist/segregationist cause, I guarantee there would be more black republicans. I might be one. Instead, they embraced disaffected segregationists who continue to work to undermine the very laws that have supposedly "ended racism" as the other poster posited earlier. If conservative ideology/methodology (race notwithstanding) is truly a superior approach, make the effort to convince African Americans. Don't weaken the laws that gave us the right to vote. Don't dismiss the African American vote as not worth the effort. Don't look to suppress our vote (2000 election and voting roll purges). Don't presume we embrace gangs Most African Americans are repulsed at the concept, but there are many who truly see no other viable options.
In fairness, there have been conservatives who have taken a stance against the blatant racism and general dysfunction of the current administration, including George Will, Joe Walsh, Steve Schmidt, and William Kristol. They are to be lauded to at least some degree. However, their current dalliance with political conscience is sullied by past indifference towards their party's embrace of racial politics, and it pales in comparison to the sycophantic devotion to the current occupant in the white house.
I have to say old friend, I am very disappointed.
In a world of fallen men, tragedy can befall anyone. The just and the unjust both face the prospect of loosing property, safety, or even their lives. The concept of Justice is to erect among men governments and institutions to protect the natural rights of men. Under the law, any person has the right to take the life of another if they they are in fear for their own life. It is the role of the state to determine if the death was justified in self defense. In a just society we treat each party as equally valid in the image of their creator under the laws of this country and the state or municipality making the inquiry. To make an accusation against a system you would have to demonstrate not just that you dislike the outcome of any one or series of trials among peers, but that one party was treated without the basic decency and value as a human being in the eyes of the law. So I can't see how you or anyone else can use a judicial outcome you disagree with the say that something, while tragic, was EXTRAJUDICIAL...
As for "Servility to those who hate us..." Young man. The police chief in Minneapolis is a person of Color, the Mayor of the city is of Hebrew decent. The Attorney General of the state is Keith Ellison, an African American Muslim man. Is having faith that those people will faithfully discharge this element of their office being "Servile to those who hate us?" Is Keith Ellison hiding a copy of Mein Kempf in his briefcase? I think not.
As for being Vilified by the right, historically the left have been the ones in this country who advocate for the usurpation of individual rights for whatever utopian ideals please a voting majority. At times in this countries history that has been white working class afraid of competition for labor, at times it was slave owners in the deep south, and now we see an emerging coalition around identity politics, but it was never those advocating for the primacy of the individual that had a problem with everyone in the society having self ownership.
Conversely, it was Woodrow Wilson, the father of modern progressivism, that screened birth of a nation at the White house. It was FDR and the new deal that traded social security for anti lynching legislation. It was FDR that courted Fascists. It was the NY times that celebrated this new iteration of progressivism called fascism. It was a block of segregationist democrats who held up the voting rights act. Every element of segregation was passed by the Democratic party. in 1860 ever slave owner was a Democrat. It was the Eugenics movement of the left that helped guide the Nazi Party in Germany. Its the same movement that has killed millions of black children in the womb today. And you can read the early literature and statements of planned parenthood that they intended to rid the world of migrants, minorities and genetic undesirables. Half the pregnancies of Black Women in NY city today end in abortion. It was LBJ who placed MLK under surveillance, he was the one who called him the N word. But oddly enough you and your ilk are the first ones to give this demonstrable racist (used the N word like peoples name) credit for MLK's legacy!
(05-31-2020, 02:51 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-31-2020, 01:39 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]To this day, progressives (specifically those in positions of influence) don't care about any of the ideology that made America unique. They no longer claim to want to refine the parts that are broken (and there were broken parts, certainly). They want to replace it with what they believe to be a superior system. There are those that believe it can be done via conversation and influence. Some take it too far. They rewrite history, when convenient, and twist facts to support narratives that will expand their base. They change language to adjust the narrative and demagoguery to silence their opponents. In the last 10 years, I have watched liberal minded thinkers move drastically to the left to keep up with the narrative that's being crafted. This gives rise to the ANTIFA types, which is spreading in most major cities. These people are much more overt about their goals and actively champion destroying America. Not only do the appropriate the black cause to advance their own agenda, they undermine good will and shared identity in the process. So, much like yesterday, I believe progressives align themselves with minorities not because they want justice, but because they see it as a bridge to socialism and control. Then, when the inevitable pushback follows the riots, they slink into the shadows and move onto the next cause.
You're shadowboxing. Even Marx said that the new society would have birthmarks of the old. America will always be unique even if (God forbid) she gets taken over by communists. Anyone seeking elective office is by definition going for incremental change rather than revolution.
When I point out the numbers, I do so to specifically undermine the narrative that is being spun by progressives. It's not a tool that I wield with the hopes of silencing the black voice. I am just fighting a different enemy. I believe that destroying the narrative is important to healing our nation. Truth be told, I am all for looking at biases in the justice system. I have no doubt that bias plays a role in sentencing. We have to figure out a way to remove it, but it's clear that we are looking into it and we are improving. Even the article you linked, which was designed to condemn bias, made it clear that this is a problem Florida recognizes and wants to solve. Even assuming intrinsic bias exists and is a real problem (which I have no doubt plays some role; it's clearly evident in the sentencing between men and women), the solution is not patently clear or achievable for a multitude of reasons. I could go on about that, but it's really speculative. It's not like we have a clear understanding of how bias works or ways to correct it. Personally, I believe the best way to remove bias is for a group to share a culture, which is why I think identity politics actually undermines unity and feeds intrinsic bias.
Regardless of your intention, the sentiment above is "the reason we discriminate against you is that you talk, act, and pray differently than us. So be more like us, and we'll stop discriminating against you." It's despicable. "All you have to change is everything you are." No. So long as they don't hurt anybody, no subculture should have to change anything as a precondition to equal rights and opportunities. A more serious proposal would be something like, the trial judge presides over the sentencing hearing, but the sentence is decided by a different judge. That second judge would only ever read a transcript of the sentencing hearing, with racially identifying information removed. That might sound crazy to you, but asking a whole group of people to delete their 400-year-old culture sounds crazy to me.
Ultimately, I agree with Bullseye, that I don't see things getting better any time soon. You ask the question how do blacks protest? Here's a start: Get rid of the leaders that exploit them. I think blacks need to recognize that the democratic party doesn't care about them except as a numbers game. They need to re-embrace the idea of the black family unit. They need to reject the current iteration of welfare that cripples their communities and stifles their economic growth. They should reject gangs that ensnare their youth and encourage the pursuit of middle class careers. I agree that they should to arm themselves and start policing their own. These aren't my ideas. Malcolm X proposed them. Imo, the black community lost a powerful voice when he was mercilessly gunned down. Malcolm X understood the power of autonomy (post nation of Islam), and would have loved to see how he would have helped shaped the black psyche had he not been mercilessly gun-downed.
I know you're getting this from Sowell but it's half-baked. No-fault divorce and "great society" programs hit all parts of society at once. Poor black families started qualifying for food stamps the same day that poor white families did. Poor black couples started qualifying for no fault divorce the same day that white couples did. So, to the extent that there is a disparity of the presence of a father between black families and white families, is the disparity really correlated to race, or is it more correlated to income? Or is it more correlated to generational wealth? Because one federal subsidy that didn't hit all races at once is the subsidized mortgage. White folks started getting them around 1934, but black folks across all 50 states had to wait 34 more years to get theirs.
Bravo! You expressed this far better than I did!