(06-01-2020, 09:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2020, 09:34 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Rational discourse is going out the window.
Rational political discourse went out of the window ages ago, and certainly was not present during the previous administration.
Terrorist fist jabs?
Imposition of Sharia law?!?
Jade Helm?!?
Fema Camps?!?
Rational dialogue must first be held internally. I can't change those people who argue in bad faith. I can only try to argue in good faith. There are actors on this board that are going to represent the extreme sides of issues (and those points need to be addressed), but they should be ignored. Why hold them up as examples of each party's ideology? Most people in this world are followers and simpletons. People have a way of reducing complex issues to their most reductionist form because they don't care enough about the topic to investigate it with an open mind. When I see intelligent people doing this, it blows my mind. This is not to say I am not guilty of it. I am sure there are times when I suffer from this myself. How would I even know? There are also times emotions get the better of us, but, we need to take a step back, recommit to finding the truth and having rational discourse, and move forward.
The problem is that a narrative is created, and there is a lie that is told, then people repeat it, then the facts come out that contradict the lie, then people justify the lie, then they go on repeating the lie. How can you have rational discourse if there aren't at least SOME people from each side that stick to the facts and have civil dialogue. To make matters worse, there are people who are intentionally creating that narrative to feed it to the masses. They know they are distorting the truth and they don't care. I have fallen victim to this many times from sources I have trusted. So much so, that I have just started believing everything is a lie. A LOT of people feel this way right now. However, since I have the time, I spend a lot of it looking up information and trying to find multiple sources with different perspectives so I can get some semblance of the truth. Other people don't or can't do that, so we live in a world where you just end up picking a side because the other side is worse.
I agree that the dialogue has long been devolving in the US. I just don't want to see our intelligent people reduce themselves to bruh's and one liners. It doesn't help that internet message boards are probably the worst possible venue for finding mutual understanding. They are great for people with shared interests, though.
(06-02-2020, 01:13 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2020, 11:15 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]You meant radical white Christians, of course. Because the average Christian, white or otherwise, lives the daily grind just as everyone else does.
yeh id assume they are fairly radical if committing domestic terrorism
It's an important distinction. Some of my liberal white Christian friends are out in the streets blaming themselves for what's wrong with the AA community. White Privilege means you are the cause and solution to all of the minority community's problems I guess.
(06-02-2020, 09:24 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 01:13 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]yeh id assume they are fairly radical if committing domestic terrorism
It's an important distinction. Some of my liberal white Christian friends are out in the streets blaming themselves for what's wrong with the AA community. White Privilege means you are the cause and solution to all of the minority community's problems I guess.
What a poor understanding of what white privilege is.
(06-02-2020, 09:24 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's an important distinction. Some of my liberal white Christian friends are out in the streets blaming themselves for what's wrong with the AA community. White Privilege means you are the cause and solution to all of the minority community's problems I guess.
I have a good buddy who is the stereotypical college educated white woke social justice type. Loves Bernie. Hates big corporations. Wants reparations. Still thinks cops kill more black people than whites ewhen you account for violent crime rates even though it's been disproven repeatedly. Etc, etc.. all the normal stuff you hear.
So the other day I sent him the video of Van Jones on CNN who said all white people have a disease where at any moment racism could just rear its ugly head. And told my buddy that deep down he is a kkk style racist and is part of the problem even if he doesn't know it. And while I shouldn't have been surprised, he actually believes that too. It's almost like a psychosis or having been brainwashed. A guy who has no real power in life to affect a black person. Doesnt hold a position in management where he can hire or fire people. Unable to prevent people from going to school, earning money, basically living their own life. He actually taught at an inner city school. Always votes very progressive. Etc, etc... never done a racist thing in his life. Yet still buys into the idea that he is somehow magically keeping the black man down and needs to fight off some kind of racism floating within the ether of his subconscious. It's really bizarre. It's a weird form of self hatred. But there are so many white people on the Left who are just like this.
But part of me thinks he could be right in a small way because everytime he listens to a black person who doesnt share his worldview, or, *gasp*, leans more conservative he is flabbergasted. As if they should all think the same and follow the advice of white liberals. It's the one part of him that could actually be racist but maybe the only thing about him he doesnt see as racist.
(06-02-2020, 09:54 AM)Byron LeftTown Wrote: [ -> ]Black Harvard professor studies police violence against blacks and whites.
Blacks were 20% LESS LIKELY to be shot than whites
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upsho...tings.html
Michigan St had a study last year that showed a similar thing. Washington Post keeps track of police shootings and their data shows this. FBI crime stats show this. There are endless studies that show this.
The real correlation with police shootings and killings is not race but rates of violent crime within a community. Numerous studies have proven this over and over again. And it makes obvious sense. But we have this narrative that black folks are getting gunned at disproportionate rates and cops only do this to black folks. And while this may have been true in the past, it has ceased being true for awhile. For every bad police killing of a black person, I'll show you the same thing happening to a white person. Only difference is no one ever talks about the latter.
(06-02-2020, 07:40 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2020, 09:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Rational political discourse went out of the window ages ago, and certainly was not present during the previous administration.
Terrorist fist jabs?
Imposition of Sharia law?!?
Jade Helm?!?
Fema Camps?!?
Rational dialogue must first be held internally. I can't change those people who argue in bad faith. I can only try to argue in good faith. There are actors on this board that are going to represent the extreme sides of issues (and those points need to be addressed), but they should be ignored. Why hold them up as examples of each party's ideology? Most people in this world are followers and simpletons. People have a way of reducing complex issues to their most reductionist form because they don't care enough about the topic to investigate it with an open mind. When I see intelligent people doing this, it blows my mind. This is not to say I am not guilty of it. I am sure there are times when I suffer from this myself. How would I even know? There are also times emotions get the better of us, but, we need to take a step back, recommit to finding the truth and having rational discourse, and move forward.
The problem is that a narrative is created, and there is a lie that is told, then people repeat it, then the facts come out that contradict the lie, then people justify the lie, then they go on repeating the lie. How can you have rational discourse if there aren't at least SOME people from each side that stick to the facts and have civil dialogue. To make matters worse, there are people who are intentionally creating that narrative to feed it to the masses. They know they are distorting the truth and they don't care. I have fallen victim to this many times from sources I have trusted. So much so, that I have just started believing everything is a lie. A LOT of people feel this way right now. However, since I have the time, I spend a lot of it looking up information and trying to find multiple sources with different perspectives so I can get some semblance of the truth. Other people don't or can't do that, so we live in a world where you just end up picking a side because the other side is worse.
I agree that the dialogue has long been devolving in the US. I just don't want to see our intelligent people reduce themselves to bruh's and one liners. It doesn't help that internet message boards are probably the worst possible venue for finding mutual understanding. They are great for people with shared interests, though.
A better response would be, "I never worried about FEMA death camps, and I'm not going to defend the people who did. I'd like to have a friendly dialogue, us two, but let's be careful not to bring the supposed opinions of others into it."
Be more personal and specific. If you just come here to speak your own opinion, instead of defending someone else's, or instead of defending an entire "worldview", you might be less frustrated. Certainly your posts would get shorter.
Another thing to keep in mind is that all posts here are addressed to everyone. It might entertain me more to try to crack a joke for everyone to read than to get down to brass tacks with just you. There is a time and place to use the private message feature if you want more control of who responds to your ideas.
(06-02-2020, 10:07 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 09:24 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's an important distinction. Some of my liberal white Christian friends are out in the streets blaming themselves for what's wrong with the AA community. White Privilege means you are the cause and solution to all of the minority community's problems I guess.
I have a good buddy who is the stereotypical college educated white woke social justice type. Loves Bernie. Hates big corporations. Wants reparations. Still thinks cops kill more black people than whites ewhen you account for violent crime rates even though it's been disproven repeatedly. Etc, etc.. all the normal stuff you hear.
So the other day I sent him the video of Van Jones on CNN who said all white people have a disease where at any moment racism could just rear its ugly head. And told my buddy that deep down he is a kkk style racist and is part of the problem even if he doesn't know it. And while I shouldn't have been surprised, he actually believes that too. It's almost like a psychosis or having been brainwashed. A guy who has no real power in life to affect a black person. Doesnt hold a position in management where he can hire or fire people. Unable to prevent people from going to school, earning money, basically living their own life. He actually taught at an inner city school. Always votes very progressive. Etc, etc... never done a racist thing in his life. Yet still buys into the idea that he is somehow magically keeping the black man down and needs to fight off some kind of racism floating within the ether of his subconscious. It's really bizarre. It's a weird form of self hatred. But there are so many white people on the Left who are just like this.
But part of me thinks he could be right in a small way because everytime he listens to a black person who doesnt share his worldview, or, *gasp*, leans more conservative he is flabbergasted. As if they should all think the same and follow the advice of white liberals. It's the one part of him that could actually be racist but maybe the only thing about him he doesnt see as racist.
Social justice is about religious catharsis not reason. To them tragedies like this are like thunder proving the caveman religion.
(06-02-2020, 10:45 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 10:07 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]I have a good buddy who is the stereotypical college educated white woke social justice type. Loves Bernie. Hates big corporations. Wants reparations. Still thinks cops kill more black people than whites ewhen you account for violent crime rates even though it's been disproven repeatedly. Etc, etc.. all the normal stuff you hear.
So the other day I sent him the video of Van Jones on CNN who said all white people have a disease where at any moment racism could just rear its ugly head. And told my buddy that deep down he is a kkk style racist and is part of the problem even if he doesn't know it. And while I shouldn't have been surprised, he actually believes that too. It's almost like a psychosis or having been brainwashed. A guy who has no real power in life to affect a black person. Doesnt hold a position in management where he can hire or fire people. Unable to prevent people from going to school, earning money, basically living their own life. He actually taught at an inner city school. Always votes very progressive. Etc, etc... never done a racist thing in his life. Yet still buys into the idea that he is somehow magically keeping the black man down and needs to fight off some kind of racism floating within the ether of his subconscious. It's really bizarre. It's a weird form of self hatred. But there are so many white people on the Left who are just like this.
But part of me thinks he could be right in a small way because everytime he listens to a black person who doesnt share his worldview, or, *gasp*, leans more conservative he is flabbergasted. As if they should all think the same and follow the advice of white liberals. It's the one part of him that could actually be racist but maybe the only thing about him he doesnt see as racist.
Social justice is about religious catharsis not reason. To them tragedies like this are like thunder proving the caveman religion.
That's actually true for a lot of people. The narrative structure of a beautiful original state, a menace interfering with that original state, and a fight against the menace to restore things to even better than they were before is found across Western literature, politics, and religion.
Marx may be an early, obvious example, of working a political program into that structure, but you get the same arc from a Trump rally, just different villains.
(06-02-2020, 09:39 AM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 09:24 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's an important distinction. Some of my liberal white Christian friends are out in the streets blaming themselves for what's wrong with the AA community. White Privilege means you are the cause and solution to all of the minority community's problems I guess.
What a poor understanding of what white privilege is.
Nah, I understand it fine, both how it is and how groups present it to create an advantage.
(06-02-2020, 10:13 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 09:54 AM)Byron LeftTown Wrote: [ -> ]Black Harvard professor studies police violence against blacks and whites.
Blacks were 20% LESS LIKELY to be shot than whites
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upsho...tings.html
Michigan St had a study last year that showed a similar thing. Washington Post keeps track of police shootings and their data shows this. FBI crime stats show this. There are endless studies that show this.
The real correlation with police shootings and killings is not race but rates of violent crime within a community. Numerous studies have proven this over and over again. And it makes obvious sense. But we have this narrative that black folks are getting gunned at disproportionate rates and cops only do this to black folks. And while this may have been true in the past, it has ceased being true for awhile. For every bad police killing of a black person, I'll show you the same thing happening to a white person. Only difference is no one ever talks about the latter.
I have restrained from getting into a "my stat is bigger than your stat" battle on here, because, frankly, both sides of the argument naturally distrust the sources of the other. It turns into a pissing match that serves no purpose.
But, considering we have people on here who are so sure that statistics have "proved" police violence against black people to be a false narrative, I feel the need to at least post something (and there are many many more sources I could use here) that shows, absolutely, there is no proof of this. You can argue that some studies have shown this, others have shown that... But you simply can't say it has been proven.
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/...white-men/
(06-02-2020, 11:26 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 10:13 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Michigan St had a study last year that showed a similar thing. Washington Post keeps track of police shootings and their data shows this. FBI crime stats show this. There are endless studies that show this.
The real correlation with police shootings and killings is not race but rates of violent crime within a community. Numerous studies have proven this over and over again. And it makes obvious sense. But we have this narrative that black folks are getting gunned at disproportionate rates and cops only do this to black folks. And while this may have been true in the past, it has ceased being true for awhile. For every bad police killing of a black person, I'll show you the same thing happening to a white person. Only difference is no one ever talks about the latter.
I have restrained from getting into a "my stat is bigger than your stat" battle on here, because, frankly, both sides of the argument naturally distrust the sources of the other. It turns into a pissing match that serves no purpose.
But, considering we have people on here who are so sure that statistics have "proved" police violence against black people to be a false narrative, I feel the need to at least post something (and there are many many more sources I could use here) that shows, absolutely, there is no proof of this. You can argue that some studies have shown this, others have shown that... But you simply can't say it has been proven.
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/...white-men/
In a country of 300+ million people with 6 million violent incidents per year we have somewhere between 600 and 3,500 police killings (combined justified and not) per year. The scope and scale is microscopic.
(06-02-2020, 11:45 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 11:26 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I have restrained from getting into a "my stat is bigger than your stat" battle on here, because, frankly, both sides of the argument naturally distrust the sources of the other. It turns into a pissing match that serves no purpose.
But, considering we have people on here who are so sure that statistics have "proved" police violence against black people to be a false narrative, I feel the need to at least post something (and there are many many more sources I could use here) that shows, absolutely, there is no proof of this. You can argue that some studies have shown this, others have shown that... But you simply can't say it has been proven.
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/...white-men/
In a country of 300+ million people with 6 million violent incidents per year we have somewhere between 600 and 3,500 police killings (combined justified and not) per year. The scope and scale is microscopic.
A few points:
1) these numbers really don't seem microscopic when we are talking about something like killings
2) the protest is not purely about police killings, it's about all interactions with police officers and POC.
3) once again, you present your statistics as though they are the final say, end of argument. They really aren't.
Maybe with the social media blackout today, stuff will relax some today.
(06-02-2020, 11:58 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 11:45 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]In a country of 300+ million people with 6 million violent incidents per year we have somewhere between 600 and 3,500 police killings (combined justified and not) per year. The scope and scale is microscopic.
A few points:
1) these numbers really don't seem microscopic when we are talking about something like killings
2) the protest is not purely about police killings, it's about all interactions with police officers and POC.
3) once again, you present your statistics as though they are the final say, end of argument. They really aren't.
1. They aren't even a rounding error. Inconsequential in the big picture.
2. Again the vast majority of those interactions end without incident. The same as those with NPOCs.
3. For most people they really are. It's a small problem that's been blown way out of proportion for the purpose of power and control, nothing more. The more our cities burn over this the more people turn against the "protesters."
I know some will balk at the source and/or the messenger, but it's really worth the time to watch this editorial and really listen to what he has to say.
(06-02-2020, 11:26 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-02-2020, 10:13 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Michigan St had a study last year that showed a similar thing. Washington Post keeps track of police shootings and their data shows this. FBI crime stats show this. There are endless studies that show this.
The real correlation with police shootings and killings is not race but rates of violent crime within a community. Numerous studies have proven this over and over again. And it makes obvious sense. But we have this narrative that black folks are getting gunned at disproportionate rates and cops only do this to black folks. And while this may have been true in the past, it has ceased being true for awhile. For every bad police killing of a black person, I'll show you the same thing happening to a white person. Only difference is no one ever talks about the latter.
I have restrained from getting into a "my stat is bigger than your stat" battle on here, because, frankly, both sides of the argument naturally distrust the sources of the other. It turns into a pissing match that serves no purpose.
But, considering we have people on here who are so sure that statistics have "proved" police violence against black people to be a false narrative, I feel the need to at least post something (and there are many many more sources I could use here) that shows, absolutely, there is no proof of this. You can argue that some studies have shown this, others have shown that... But you simply can't say it has been proven.
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/...white-men/
Your study doesnt contradict anything weve been saying.
(06-02-2020, 01:36 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I know some will balk at the source and/or the messenger, but it's really worth the time to watch this editorial and really listen to what he has to say.
I was shocked @ what nikki haley and mike pence said.