(06-04-2020, 11:19 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-04-2020, 10:48 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I thought you were Mexico? You've been to Manhattan, to Chicago, to LA, to Minneapolis, to confirm your supposition? Because it's completely about those things for the looters.
There are hundreds of thousands of people peacefully protesting across America and the rest of the world. Compared to that number, the amount of people who are looting is absolutely miniscule. Way less than 1%. Unfortunately, media organizations know that footage of looting gets people watching, and peaceful protests not so much.
To say that the protests are not about George Floyd and the ongoing police brutality in America, is an outright lie that is deliberately designed to make people ignore the undeniably real and passionate grievances that millions of people have.
Who needs the nutmeg now, brother.
(06-04-2020, 09:21 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-04-2020, 06:15 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for posting this. Great comparison.
While there is some truth to the comparison that the actions of a massive group are being unfairly judged by the actions of a tiny minority, it is also a massive false equivalency. The people looting and rioting (which, again, I condemn) are citizens commiting criminal acts, they have taken no oath to "protect and serve". The police officers commiting brutal acts against citizens have taken that oath; they are meant to be the ones who enforce the laws, not break them. They are meant to be the ones to protect ALL Americans. Hence the increased level of outrage when the very people that are supposed to uphold the law are the ones who commit heinous acts of violence against citizens.
How many innocent people have to die before it meets the requirements for your attention?
(06-04-2020, 09:05 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-04-2020, 05:49 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is the media (mainstream and social) identifies the rioters and looters as "protesters". I completely agree with your first point. The other problem is that "police brutality" isn't that big of a problem and really isn't that prevalent. Sure there are a few "bad apples" in police departments, but the number is probably less than 1% when looking at all law enforcement officers across the country. Your comment here instantly made me think of this Chris Rock bit, it's only 2 mins long so definitely worth a watch. Might even make you chuckle! https://youtu.be/1h5sRgW6sQY
Leftists like you try to push the narrative that ALL police abuse their power. That is simply not the case. Here you go with the classic conservative straw man tactic, where have I ever said that ALL police abuse their power? I know for certain that there are many good, honest, decent police officers out there who have dedicated their lives to trying to make the world a better place. At the same time, I think the general tactics of the police in America are ludicrous. It's all designed to be so adversarial, and so often it makes a bad situation immediately worse. These are the kinds of things that need to be reformed.
Let me ask you this. You said that you are in Mexico. How is the law enforcement there? Any corruption?
I'm not sure why this is relevant. I'm not criticizing American police and praising the rest of the world's police. Mexico has an entirely [BLEEP] up situation with police; widespread corruption, violence, and the fact they are generally pretty useless are all big issues. But how is this relevant? Do you simply want to say that American police are better than Mexican police? Because you should really aim higher.
Policing is adversarial.
(06-04-2020, 09:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]And one final point about the "few bad apples" argument. George Floyd died because one officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes and 47 seconds. He was surrounded by 3 other officers, who did nothing to stop him killing this man. Multiple onlookers repeatedly said that he was dying, it was obvious. The officer continued to kneel on his neck for almost 3 minutes after his body had gone limp and lifeless, still none of the other 3 officers stopped him. That makes 4 "bad apples". What a terribly tragic coincidence that all 4 officers at the scene that day happened to be from this tiny tiny minority of "bad apple" cops. Or maybe the problem is more widespread than you are making out?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all 4 of these cops were dispicable racist thugs who set out that day to take a black man's life. I am saying that this incident shows how their are clear and obvious problems with how the police operate. Too often these situations are made worse by the actions of police; this needs to be the basis of police reform.
(06-04-2020, 09:22 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Excuses excuses.
Wow, you really didn't read anything I just wrote, did you?
Childish sentimental drivel. Dont put your knee on the guys neck. There. Reform done.
There is a line for officers. They should never cross it. But that line cant be about making them impotent when they have to confront the dregs of humanity on a daily basis in a game of life and death.
(06-04-2020, 11:40 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]Policing is adversarial.
(06-04-2020, 09:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]And one final point about the "few bad apples" argument. George Floyd died because one officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes and 47 seconds. He was surrounded by 3 other officers, who did nothing to stop him killing this man. Multiple onlookers repeatedly said that he was dying, it was obvious. The officer continued to kneel on his neck for almost 3 minutes after his body had gone limp and lifeless, still none of the other 3 officers stopped him. That makes 4 "bad apples". What a terribly tragic coincidence that all 4 officers at the scene that day happened to be from this tiny tiny minority of "bad apple" cops. Or maybe the problem is more widespread than you are making out?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all 4 of these cops were dispicable racist thugs who set out that day to take a black man's life. I am saying that this incident shows how their are clear and obvious problems with how the police operate. Too often these situations are made worse by the actions of police; this needs to be the basis of police reform.
Wow, you really didn't read anything I just wrote, did you?
Childish sentimental drivel. Dont put your knee on the guys neck. There. Reform done.
There is a line for officers. They should never cross it. But that line cant be about making them impotent when they have to confront the dregs of humanity on a daily basis in a game of life and death.
Drivel is a bit rich coming from a guy who continues to prattle on about nutmeg, DB coaches and hockey players.
As for the childish accusation. Yes, I think my observations are so clear and obvious that even a child can see the truth in them... And the real silver lining of this unfortunate situation is that young people, of every possible background, are seeing the truth and want to do something to change it. I am really getting a sense that the last week has been a turning point. You guys, with your out-dated views are being pushed out of the conversation. I understand why this riles you up so much, it must sting to know you are getting left behind.
The whole of the US is going to be left behind.
Had to stop this morning a pick up the BLM protest signs out of the middle of 2nd street in Jax Beach and throw them away. Children who know nothing and have earned nothing "protesting" about things they know nothing about. People of such low character they can't even clean up after themselves with trash can half a block away. This is your BLM movement, pathetic.
(06-04-2020, 10:59 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (06-04-2020, 09:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]And one final point about the "few bad apples" argument. George Floyd died because one officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes and 47 seconds. He was surrounded by 3 other officers, who did nothing to stop him killing this man. Multiple onlookers repeatedly said that he was dying, it was obvious. The officer continued to kneel on his neck for almost 3 minutes after his body had gone limp and lifeless, still none of the other 3 officers stopped him. That makes 4 "bad apples". What a terribly tragic coincidence that all 4 officers at the scene that day happened to be from this tiny tiny minority of "bad apple" cops. Or maybe the problem is more widespread than you are making out?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all 4 of these cops were dispicable racist thugs who set out that day to take a black man's life. I am saying that this incident shows how their are clear and obvious problems with how the police operate. Too often these situations are made worse by the actions of police; this needs to be the basis of police reform.
How do you reform something when the problem is individual people? People may not present as problems immediately, it is usually an issue that builds over time after having to constantly deal with criminals. If there are reports, you can hopefully intervene, but how can you truly trust reports from people being arrested? Sure patterns form, so hopefully you catch them, but you can't catch everyone.
Police already have many steps in place to stop this, but guess what, another democratic platform police union stops them from getting rid of the bad cops unless something like this happens.
The system leads to the bad elements because it protects and supports them. George Floyd was murdered while he begged for his life and three officers stood by and did nothing even as other bystanders were yelling at them to intervene or for the officer to stop kneeling on his neck. The whole incident was captured in excruciating footage. Even with all that it took massive protests for the officers to be fired and charged with a crime. The officer who murdered Floyd had 17 incidents on his file including two with excessive violence, his badge should have been taken away years ago.
Bad elements happen within every organization, it's a fact of humanity. But a good organization has mechanisms in place to remove those elements, doctors have boards where their actions are reviewed if there is any belief they were negligent or contributed to a patient's death or injury, the bar association can and does strip lawyers of their license for a whole range of infractions, same with registered accountants. Soldiers face military tribunal if they violate the UCMJ and can even end up in The Hague on charges of war crimes.
On the opposite side; police unions will shield officers for any repercussions and Qualified Immunity means it's virtually impossible to hold them accountable in a civil court. Police brutality is the result of zero accountability and zero transparency and until the system is reformed this whole sequence of events will keep happening.
(06-05-2020, 10:43 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-05-2020, 10:25 AM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]The system leads to the bad elements because it protects and supports them. George Floyd was murdered while he begged for his life and three officers stood by and did nothing even as other bystanders were yelling at them to intervene or for the officer to stop kneeling on his neck. The whole incident was captured in excruciating footage. Even with all that it took massive protests for the officers to be fired and charged with a crime. The officer who murdered Floyd had 17 incidents on his file including two with excessive violence, his badge should have been taken away years ago.
Bad elements happen within every organization, it's a fact of humanity. But a good organization has mechanisms in place to remove those elements, doctors have boards where their actions are reviewed if there is any belief they were negligent or contributed to a patient's death or injury, the bar association can and does strip lawyers of their license for a whole range of infractions, same with registered accountants. Soldiers face military tribunal if they violate the UCMJ and can even end up in The Hague on charges of war crimes.
On the opposite side; police unions will shield officers for any repercussions and Qualified Immunity means it's virtually impossible to hold them accountable in a civil court. Police brutality is the result of zero accountability and zero transparency and until the system is reformed this whole sequence of events will keep happening.
DF gets it!
That's what you got from his post?
Unfortunately until such time that the police are not humans the system will have flaws. That is the human condition. Why some of you are struggling to understand that is puzzling. All the reform and rules and regulations imaginable will not change the fact that humans are performing these jobs and will sometimes fail miserably but for the most part do it admirably and honorably. The bad players are the outliers not the norm. No matter the perception being otherwise.
(06-05-2020, 10:49 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately until such time that the police are not humans the system will have flaws. That is the human condition. Why some of you are struggling to understand that is puzzling. All the reform and rules and regulations imaginable will not change the fact that humans are performing these jobs and will sometimes fail miserably but for the most part do it admirably and honorably. The bad players are the outliers not the norm. No matter the perception being otherwise.
You feel better about yourself when you have the "system" to blame for your failures. Being a victim is the new badge of honor and everyone wants in on the deal.
(06-05-2020, 10:49 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately until such time that the police are not humans the system will have flaws. That is the human condition. Why some of you are struggling to understand that is puzzling. All the reform and rules and regulations imaginable will not change the fact that humans are performing these jobs and will sometimes fail miserably but for the most part do it admirably and honorably. The bad players are the outliers not the norm. No matter the perception being otherwise.
(06-05-2020, 11:25 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-05-2020, 11:18 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]Ok I retract my statement. I'm glad to see you agree that reform is necessary.
I've supported these reforms long before the George Floyd murder. I just don't see how the burning, looting, and murder (BLM?) and cries of "racism" will lead to the reforms that would actually make a positive difference. None of those policies are based on race.
But maybe I'm wrong. A coalition of Dems and libertarian Pubs in congress is proposing a bill to end qualified immunity (only for cops unfortunately, not for other government workers where it's also abused).
How would you respond to the many people on here who say that reform is impossible and pointless because it's only a handful of bad people?
(06-05-2020, 12:46 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-05-2020, 12:14 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]How would you respond to the many people on here who say that reform is impossible and pointless because it's only a handful of bad people?
Although murders by police are rare, more than a handful of police abuse their power and get away with it. The asset forfeiture program (which Joe Biden championed) is another example, as are the many dogs and other pets killed by cops.
In a similar light, the rioters are more than a handful of those among the "peaceful" protesters. It's not about race and the deadly riots are based on a lie.
Anyone, care to respond to this? Flsprtsgod? JJ? Jagwired?
(06-05-2020, 12:14 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]How would you respond to the many people on here who say that reform is impossible and pointless because it's only a handful of bad people?
Are all cops bad? I know liberals like to make absolute stereotype statements, but I think even you would agree they are not. Most of the cops are fine, so reform isn't needed for the whole. Yes they need to reform the ability to get rid of the bad people. They also could do with longer training, more cops living in the communities they patrol, more outreach in the communities ..... but that all costs money and now budgets are going to be cut even more.
None of those changes matter though if they can't get rid of bad people. They same thing goes for interacting with the communities. It doesn't matter if there are still bad people in the communities because the cops will still have to arrest them. You cannot ask a criminal who doesn't want to go to jail to handcuff themselves and get in a cop car and assume they will do it. Criminals will do whatever they can to stay out of jail, so cops have to take those precautions. The cops also know criminals have pasts, so when arresting someone they cannot assume you are unarmed and not a threat. Even if a criminal is not resisting, you cannot assume they will continue to comply until you have them secured.
Everyone always says we have to reform the cops, but they never mention controlling what they can immediately control. How about reforming yourself and your actions that cause you to interact with police. No one likes to interact with cops, but if you don't give cops a reason, it is a lot harder to get away with abusing their power. If you change the way you interact with cops, most cops will mimic your stance and return it back to you.
How about a protest where if you see a cop you lay on the ground and put your hands behind your back. That will have immediate actions to stop any violence from happening. It will be so over the top, that it will force some change and hopefully getting cops to interact.
(06-05-2020, 12:14 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-05-2020, 10:49 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately until such time that the police are not humans the system will have flaws. That is the human condition. Why some of you are struggling to understand that is puzzling. All the reform and rules and regulations imaginable will not change the fact that humans are performing these jobs and will sometimes fail miserably but for the most part do it admirably and honorably. The bad players are the outliers not the norm. No matter the perception being otherwise.
How would you respond to the many people on here who say that reform is impossible and pointless because it's only a handful of bad people?
Of course some reform could not be a bad thing. I would like to see some reform in the process's pertaining to access to body cam footage and official police records along with more efficient means to cull bad Officers out of the forces. These things are public funded and should be easily accessible to anyone. IMO to call for "Reform" and not have specific reform in mind to help with the actual problems and not the perceived ones would be rather useless.
(06-05-2020, 12:55 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-05-2020, 12:46 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]Although murders by police are rare, more than a handful of police abuse their power and get away with it. The asset forfeiture program (which Joe Biden championed) is another example, as are the many dogs and other pets killed by cops.
In a similar light, the rioters are more than a handful of those among the "peaceful" protesters. It's not about race and the deadly riots are based on a lie.
Anyone, care to respond to this? Flsprtsgod? JJ? Jagwired?
Whats to respond to? Bad cops should be fired or prosecuted. Bad law should be revoked. Rioters should be arrested or shot. Same as has been said for a week now.