This is the correct response from one chapter of the F.O.P.
https://twitter.com/NC5/status/1266115580442095619?s=20
More should follow suit.
Officers have it hard, I know. The job is difficult and I salute them for taking it on, but reform is necessary to ensure force is used appropriately.
There is a video out now of this man
being compliant with police prior to the video showing him being killed.
Whatever George Floyd may have said or did after that which made an officer use the technique that is not taught by the MPD he should have:
A- Simply sought the help of the other officers clearly on scene if he needed it - and/or
B- (and this will sound crazy) STOPPED KILLING THE HANDCUFFED GUY WHEN HE REPEATEDLY BEGGED FOR HIS LIFE.
BTW - the MPD teaches "knee to between the shoulder blades" and not "knee to the neck/throat."
Why did the store surveillance video cut off before they got to the cop SUV? I have no clue how they could have ended up on the ground on the other side of the SUV.
(05-28-2020, 07:24 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 07:18 AM)Byron LeftTown Wrote: [ -> ]Fixed it 4 ya.
Except that there's video showing Floyd not resisting anything. It's funny how unrelated video in the Arbery case somehow exonorates (or at least strongly mitigates) three white men cornering and murdering a black man, but the video we have here of a pig kneeling on the neck of a man who was compliant while three other officers look on doesn't matter. Even if we go to the extreme and say that he was somehow, at some point, resisting arrest, kneeling on his neck until he dies is not the sort of tactic taught at the police academy.
Frankly, I think law enforcement in this country could use an enema.
(05-28-2020, 03:56 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 01:05 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't matter if he was racist or not. It's unreasonable position to believe all cops or racist or that all police brutality towards blacks comes from racist ideology. This is typical race baiting nonsense that professors peddle to keep their jobs and a media that needs ratings. The data just doesn't support this claim. Using 2015 as an example (since it's the first data I found), there was 53.3 MILLION encounters with the police by US citizens. 20% of those were black, which makes it 10.66 million encounters blacks had with cops. That same year, 104 black people were killed by cops. Your likelihood of being killed by a police officer as an unarmed black man is 0.00000975609756097561. If you think this number is indicative of anything resembling a crisis, you are deluding yourself.
Yes. There is room for improvement with our Police. Yes. There will be bad actors. Yes. You may even find a racist cop. Yes. Blacks face discrimination in various forms in the US. None of that indicates the system is corrupt.
There are flawed people. Like almost all of America's leftist policies, they exploit the flaws of humanity to advance an ideology that won't actually solve the flaws in humanity.
Just out of curiosity - what if the number were closer to 0.5-0.6%? Would it be a crisis then?
Did you do the math? 500,000+ unarmed, black men would have to die from police brutality, per year, to reach that number. That's assuming all of them were 100% innocent from any wrong doing, too. You don't think that's a
bit different than 104? There are accidents and bad actors, and it's safe to say that accounts for the .00000097% chance that someone dies unjustly by the police. 100 out of 10 MILLION encounters is nothing to fear, man. I would take those odds ALL day. Btw, it's not different for whites per encounter (in fact, it's slightly higher). No one cares.
(05-28-2020, 06:16 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]Why did the store surveillance video cut off before they got to the cop SUV? I have no clue how they could have ended up on the ground on the other side of the SUV.
What could he have done that deserved to be murdered?
Not fully complying with police action is not worth the death penalty is it?
Not sure why you would want to live under such a regime.
(05-28-2020, 07:20 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 07:24 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Except that there's video showing Floyd not resisting anything. It's funny how unrelated video in the Arbery case somehow exonorates (or at least strongly mitigates) three white men cornering and murdering a black man, but the video we have here of a pig kneeling on the neck of a man who was compliant while three other officers look on doesn't matter. Even if we go to the extreme and say that he was somehow, at some point, resisting arrest, kneeling on his neck until he dies is not the sort of tactic taught at the police academy.
Frankly, I think law enforcement in this country could use an enema.
(05-28-2020, 03:56 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ]Just out of curiosity - what if the number were closer to 0.5-0.6%? Would it be a crisis then?
Did you do the math? 500,000+ unarmed, black men would have to die from police brutality, per year, to reach that number. That's assuming all of them were 100% innocent from any wrong doing, too. You don't think that's a bit different than 104? There are accidents and bad actors, and it's safe to say that accounts for the .00000097% chance that someone dies unjustly by the police. 100 out of 10 MILLION encounters is nothing to fear, man. I would take those odds ALL day. Btw, it's not different for whites per encounter (in fact, it's slightly higher). No one cares.
500,000 / 0.5% = 100,000,000
I'm not following your math...
(05-28-2020, 07:38 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 07:20 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Did you do the math? 500,000+ unarmed, black men would have to die from police brutality, per year, to reach that number. That's assuming all of them were 100% innocent from any wrong doing, too. You don't think that's a bit different than 104? There are accidents and bad actors, and it's safe to say that accounts for the .00000097% chance that someone dies unjustly by the police. 100 out of 10 MILLION encounters is nothing to fear, man. I would take those odds ALL day. Btw, it's not different for whites per encounter (in fact, it's slightly higher). No one cares.
500,000 / 0.5% = 100,000,000
I'm not following your math...
He misplaced a decimal. Let him. Be.
Yeah, I was doing it in my head. 50,000. Same point.
(05-28-2020, 08:04 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I was doing it in my head. 50,000. Same point.
You're saying there are 10 million forceful interactions between police and black people every year in this country?
No. I said out of every 10 MILLION reported interactions between a black man and a police officer, 100 unarmed black men have been shot. Can you read?
I used data from a the Bureau of Justice website from 2015.
Also, that's police initiated contact. Meaning, the cops weren't called by said person.
(05-28-2020, 08:14 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]No. I said out of every 10 MILLION reported interactions between a black man and a police officer, 100 unarmed black men have been shot. Can you read?
I used data from a the Bureau of Justice website from 2015.
Also, that's police initiated contact. Meaning, the cops weren't called by said person.
All due respect to math, decimal points, and negligent shootings, but this is more of a "can we please not choke the life out of the handcuffed man begging you not to choke the life out of him" type of issue.
(05-28-2020, 08:14 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]No. I said out of every 10 MILLION reported interactions between a black man and a police officer, 100 unarmed black men have been shot. Can you read?
I used data from a the Bureau of Justice website from 2015.
Also, that's police initiated contact. Meaning, the cops weren't called by said person.
Thanks. Obviously I can read, I just can't always read backwards in a 5 way discussion.
What you're saying makes sense, but it's not persuasive.
It's very hard to hide deaths. If the stats say 104 people got killed by police, it probably was exactly 104. And of those 104, many were probably justified, due to the suspect having a weapon and credibly threatening an officer's life.
But it is certainly much easier to hide use of force that does not result in death. In fact, even if you could document the use of force, I don't think you will ever reliably be able to categorize those massive amounts of incidents into "excessive" and "not excessive."
And that's what generates the mistrust between minorities and the police. That's why minorities will identify with this victim, George Floyd, no matter how many statistics you throw at them about how this is an aberration. It's the mistrust that I'm concerned about, because that mistrust is one of many misunderstandings between black people and white people in this country in general.
(05-28-2020, 08:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 08:14 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]No. I said out of every 10 MILLION reported interactions between a black man and a police officer, 100 unarmed black men have been shot. Can you read?
I used data from a the Bureau of Justice website from 2015.
Also, that's police initiated contact. Meaning, the cops weren't called by said person.
All due respect to math, decimal points, and negligent shootings, but this is more of a "can we please not choke the life out of the handcuffed man begging you not to choke the life out of him" type of issue.
Who disagrees with that? I can't find one person that thinks this was acceptable, including many police departments that have come out to condemn it. This cop was clearly unfit for the position and deserves punishment. I condemn the act. However, I am addressing a different issue in this thread, because what should have been a bipartisan issue about our shared humanity has been handcuffed to a lie that police are killing blacks in mass numbers. This narrative should not be supported by anyone. It is not ok to use a minuscule sample size as evidence of widespread corruption and racism. People are literally rioting because they believe they are being murdered by police, but the numbers do not bear this out. This isn't because it's a rampant problem. It's because the media pushes a narrative because it makes them money and happens to fit the world view of a majority of journalists and editors.
You will not solve human error, either from bad judgement or poor character. You could make the entire police department black, and there would still be unjust killings. As an aside, it's a statistical fact that black police officers are more likely to kill black suspects, and this holds true for other races, too (whites kill more whites, hispanics kill more hispanics). Just stop telling people they are being killed by a racist institution. It's a LIE.
Unfortunately you come across as more upset that it is being classed as racist than the death itself. Maybe some self reflection?
I don't think you fully understand how racism works. A person doesn't need to be spouting racist slurs or even be consciously thinking it.
(05-28-2020, 08:41 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 07:46 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]He misplaced a decimal. Let him. Be.
^This
I am letting him be. I just said I wasn't following. Didn't call him names, didn't put him down, phrased it in a way where blame could be placed on me, etc.
(05-28-2020, 08:56 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 08:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]All due respect to math, decimal points, and negligent shootings, but this is more of a "can we please not choke the life out of the handcuffed man begging you not to choke the life out of him" type of issue.
Who disagrees with that? I can't find one person that thinks this was acceptable, including many police departments that have come out to condemn it. This cop was clearly unfit for the position and deserves punishment. I condemn the act. However, I am addressing a different issue in this thread, because what should have been a bipartisan issue about our shared humanity has been handcuffed to a lie that police are killing blacks in mass numbers. This narrative should not be supported by anyone. It is not ok to use a minuscule sample size as evidence of widespread corruption and racism. People are literally rioting because they believe they are being murdered by police, but the numbers do not bear this out. This isn't because it's a rampant problem. It's because the media pushes a narrative because it makes them money and happens to fit the world view of a majority of journalists and editors.
You will not solve human error, either from bad judgement or poor character. You could make the entire police department black, and there would still be unjust killings. As an aside, it's a statistical fact that black police officers are more likely to kill black suspects, and this holds true for other races, too (whites kill more whites, hispanics kill more hispanics). Just stop telling people they are being killed by a racist institution. It's a LIE.
There is an element of untruth in many riots, especially spontaneously organized ones.
It's banal to narrow the vague claims of a rioter down to something real specific and measurable just so you can show that specific and measurable claim to be false.
It's empathetic to recognize that there is a broader but more vague truth behind the claim. Otherwise they would not be rioting in the first place.
(05-28-2020, 08:56 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 08:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]All due respect to math, decimal points, and negligent shootings, but this is more of a "can we please not choke the life out of the handcuffed man begging you not to choke the life out of him" type of issue.
Who disagrees with that? I can't find one person that thinks this was acceptable, including many police departments that have come out to condemn it. This cop was clearly unfit for the position and deserves punishment. I condemn the act. However, I am addressing a different issue in this thread, because what should have been a bipartisan issue about our shared humanity has been handcuffed to a lie that police are killing blacks in mass numbers. This narrative should not be supported by anyone. It is not ok to use a minuscule sample size as evidence of widespread corruption and racism. People are literally rioting because they believe they are being murdered by police, but the numbers do not bear this out. This isn't because it's a rampant problem. It's because the media pushes a narrative because it makes them money and happens to fit the world view of a majority of journalists and editors.
You will not solve human error, either from bad judgement or poor character. You could make the entire police department black, and there would still be unjust killings. As an aside, it's a statistical fact that black police officers are more likely to kill black suspects, and this holds true for other races, too (whites kill more whites, hispanics kill more hispanics). Just stop telling people they are being killed by a racist institution. It's a LIE.
Just trying to steer to topic.
Which is the senseless killing of George Floyd by a reckless cop who had 18 complaints filed against him - including an excessive force lawsuit ending in the C.O. Minneapolis paying out a settlement.
Regarding your "racist institution" thing:
Unfortunately we just don't have data to bear out exactly how many lives have been unnecessarily lost at the hands of cops who were also racist [BLEEP] -wads. That data doesn't exist.
What we do know is that police forces need to do a better job of vetting out the racist [BLEEP] -wads and training the ones who do make the cut exactly how and when to use lethal force.
A call for reform on both issues is warranted.
(05-28-2020, 09:15 PM)lastonealive Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately you come across as more upset that it is being classed as racist than the death itself. Maybe some self reflection?
I don't think you fully understand how racism works. A person doesn't need to be spouting racist slurs or even be consciously thinking it.
You don't get to ask me to be self-reflective when I am addressing a false narrative driven, in part by selfish politicians and a greedy corporate media. If you don't want it addressed, don't support others who are exploiting his death to advance an agenda. I get tired of this hyper-partisan environment that has become better at creating rhetoric than solving any issue. How about you ask your peers to be self-reflective and stop peddling this LIE. How about you address the facts I am presenting instead of using emotional appeal to try to get me to fall in line. Do you even care that millions of black Americans are being worked up into a literal frenzy by people who are manipulating their emotions? More lives are going to be ruined by this deceptive practice than those who are shot by police. There are 42,000,000 blacks in this country and a majority of them fear for their lives every time they get pulled over by a cop, even though their likelihood of dying is statistically zero. That's a tragedy.
I guess I have to use the activist version of racism, too. Just like everything else, it's a hijacked a term and used it to advance an agenda. EVERYONE has biases. Blacks definitely face prejudices and levels of intrinsic bias, and you will never hear me suggest otherwise. I am totally down to have this discussion as a stand alone issue. There are ways Americans can improve racial animus. It's not going to be one sided, though. And it's never going to improve when corporations and politicians have too much to gain by keeping it around. You can think what you want about it, but I don't care about your buzzwords. I have studied this topic extensively.
(05-28-2020, 09:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 08:56 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Who disagrees with that? I can't find one person that thinks this was acceptable, including many police departments that have come out to condemn it. This cop was clearly unfit for the position and deserves punishment. I condemn the act. However, I am addressing a different issue in this thread, because what should have been a bipartisan issue about our shared humanity has been handcuffed to a lie that police are killing blacks in mass numbers. This narrative should not be supported by anyone. It is not ok to use a minuscule sample size as evidence of widespread corruption and racism. People are literally rioting because they believe they are being murdered by police, but the numbers do not bear this out. This isn't because it's a rampant problem. It's because the media pushes a narrative because it makes them money and happens to fit the world view of a majority of journalists and editors.
You will not solve human error, either from bad judgement or poor character. You could make the entire police department black, and there would still be unjust killings. As an aside, it's a statistical fact that black police officers are more likely to kill black suspects, and this holds true for other races, too (whites kill more whites, hispanics kill more hispanics). Just stop telling people they are being killed by a racist institution. It's a LIE.
Just trying to steer to topic.
Which is the senseless killing of George Floyd by a reckless cop who had 18 complaints filed against him - including an excessive force lawsuit ending in the C.O. Minneapolis paying out a settlement.
Regarding your "racist institution" thing:
Unfortunately we just don't have data to bear out exactly how many lives have been unnecessarily lost at the hands of cops who were also racist [BLEEP] -wads. That data doesn't exist.
What we do know is that police forces need to do a better job of vetting out the racist [BLEEP] -wads and training the ones who do make the cut exactly how and when to use lethal force.
A call for reform on both issues is warranted.
That data does exist. It's not perfect, but we are in the ball park. I can link plenty of studies that support what I am saying. Unless someone is manipulating the data (which happens all the time), you can see that this is not an institutional problem, but one that comes from a myriad of factors unrelated to the policing process with the exception of the occasional malpractice. It can be improved, but it is not THE issue. It's a red herring.
Tell you what, I will stop spitting facts and listen. Please, everyone who thinks this is a major problem. How do we solve human error and poor character? How do we police the inner city better? How do you remove human bias? How do we reduce violent crime in the areas that need it the most? How do you undo fears that have been created because of cherry-picked stories? How do you create a system with no negligence?
Offer me any solution that doesn't end in a socialist Utopia and I am all ears.
(05-28-2020, 10:22 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2020, 09:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Just trying to steer to topic.
Which is the senseless killing of George Floyd by a reckless cop who had 18 complaints filed against him - including an excessive force lawsuit ending in the C.O. Minneapolis paying out a settlement.
Regarding your "racist institution" thing:
Unfortunately we just don't have data to bear out exactly how many lives have been unnecessarily lost at the hands of cops who were also racist [BLEEP] -wads. That data doesn't exist.
What we do know is that police forces need to do a better job of vetting out the racist [BLEEP] -wads and training the ones who do make the cut exactly how and when to use lethal force.
A call for reform on both issues is warranted.
That data does exist. It's not perfect, but we are in the ball park. I can link plenty of studies that support what I am saying. Unless someone is manipulating the data (which happens all the time), you can see that this is not an institutional problem, but one that comes from a myriad of factors unrelated to the policing process with the exception of the occasional malpractice. It can be improved, but it is not THE issue. It's a red herring.
Tell you what, I will stop spitting facts and listen. Please, everyone who thinks this is a major problem. How do we solve human error and poor character? How do we police the inner city better? How do you remove human bias? How do we reduce violent crime in the areas that need it the most? How do you undo fears that have been created because of cherry-picked stories? How do you create a system with no negligence?
Offer me any solution that doesn't end in a socialist Utopia and I am all ears.
1. No, that data doesn't exist because there is no way to accurately gather it. There is no concrete way to tally the number of racist police officers or the missteps they've taken on the job that stemmed from their derangement.
2. I've offered the most obvious of solutions and you went off on some tangent and asked for solutions.
3. What the hell is wrong with a widespread reform on both issues?
a. the use of lethal force by officers - and b. the vetting of police officers for racial bias (among other things)?
4. Whatever your little personal vendetta against the notion that racism exists within police forces may be - a reform effort nationally to equip officers with the tools they need to prevent riot-inciting material for the evening news is a good idea. If for no other reason than to temper the current heat around the topic and ease relations to a degree of effective communication.