(09-11-2023, 02:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (09-11-2023, 01:55 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]It was one of his better games as a pro. The sack was impressive.
He has the tools, just not the technique. I think he will become a solid pass rusher (perhaps a 10-12 sack a year guy) with time. The problem is it's going to take a lot of time to get that going. It was just a terrible decision to draft a raw prospect #1 overall. It is not Walkers fault and I will continue to root for him.
He's on pace for 17 this year as you type this. This seems an unnecessarily negative take at this particular moment.
Gonna crap my pants when Allen has 51 tho. 17 is like peanuts compared to that.
So nice when I saw them getting to AR about the same time.
Looking forward to same next week!
(09-11-2023, 10:30 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Many here said it when he was drafted, many said it during his rookie season, many are still saying it.
Walker has not yet learned the hand skill/technique possessed by the top tier pass rushers in the NFL.
If he can get that put together he'll be a major problem for every offense we face.
How hard can that possibly be to learn? Been through two off-seasons now. On many rushes it doesn't look like he uses any pass rush moves. They either aren't teaching him or he just isn't using what they've tried to teach him. Or possibly he just isn't good at any of them.
(09-11-2023, 08:52 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-11-2023, 10:30 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Many here said it when he was drafted, many said it during his rookie season, many are still saying it.
Walker has not yet learned the hand skill/technique possessed by the top tier pass rushers in the NFL.
If he can get that put together he'll be a major problem for every offense we face.
How hard can that possibly be to learn? Been through two off-seasons now. On many rushes it doesn't look like he uses any pass rush moves. They either aren't teaching him or he just isn't using what they've tried to teach him. Or possibly he just isn't good at any of them.
To be honest it is one of the hardest things to learn. Those guys blocking these rushers get paid well too. If you notice there are only a handful of dominant pass rushers around the league. Most teams do not have a dominant edge rusher because they are almost as rare as QB's. Walker has the talent but the craft takes a long time to learn. My gripe with Walker is that he did not prove to be a dominant edge rusher in college. The one thing I saw on tape was how disruptive he was in the interior. I do not understand playing a player away from what he does best. Time will tell if he becomes that guy. Week 1 was promising.
Not sure how anyone can be too down on walker after he got a sack week one. Let’s just let it play out. If he sacks Maholmes, then people will start to believe.
(09-11-2023, 08:52 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-11-2023, 10:30 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Many here said it when he was drafted, many said it during his rookie season, many are still saying it.
Walker has not yet learned the hand skill/technique possessed by the top tier pass rushers in the NFL.
If he can get that put together he'll be a major problem for every offense we face.
How hard can that possibly be to learn? Been through two off-seasons now. On many rushes it doesn't look like he uses any pass rush moves. They either aren't teaching him or he just isn't using what they've tried to teach him. Or possibly he just isn't good at any of them.
I imagine it can be pretty [BLEEP] hard to exert control over the hands of 312 pound NFL offensive taclkes.
I haven't personally tried to do it, so I can't give you a direct perspective, but considering there appears to only be about 10 or 12 humans on the planet who are REALLY good at it each season, I'm going to again take a guess that it's pretty [BLEEP] hard.
(09-11-2023, 08:52 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-11-2023, 10:30 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Many here said it when he was drafted, many said it during his rookie season, many are still saying it.
Walker has not yet learned the hand skill/technique possessed by the top tier pass rushers in the NFL.
If he can get that put together he'll be a major problem for every offense we face.
How hard can that possibly be to learn? Been through two off-seasons now. On many rushes it doesn't look like he uses any pass rush moves. They either aren't teaching him or he just isn't using what they've tried to teach him. Or possibly he just isn't good at any of them.
It's like learning a foreign language. You may know the words, but fluency takes time of use, demonstration, observation and rehearsal. I'm assuming you're at least in your twenties. Start trying to learn Mandarin, and see how far you are in a year. How often do you still fumble around changes in syntax, or misstate a word, or someone uses words that you haven't developed familiarity yet? Are you fully conversant with someone who's been speaking the language for many years? Can you interact spontaneously based on their contribution?
It's the same thing here - Travon has spent 10+ years at least playing football in a given way, and is being introduced to a new concept/language. At this point, he's got the vocabulary. What we hope to see is the fluency. Will he know when to use which technique, which is the best way to use it, what are the likely responses and then counters to those responses, etc.
It's not the matrix, you can't just download expertise from a flash drive.
(09-12-2023, 08:20 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]It's like learning a foreign language. You may know the words, but fluency takes time of use, demonstration, observation and rehearsal. I'm assuming you're at least in your twenties. Start trying to learn Mandarin, and see how far you are in a year. How often do you still fumble around changes in syntax, or misstate a word, or someone uses words that you haven't developed familiarity yet? Are you fully conversant with someone who's been speaking the language for many years? Can you interact spontaneously based on their contribution?
It's the same thing here - Travon has spent 10+ years at least playing football in a given way, and is being introduced to a new concept/language. At this point, he's got the vocabulary. What we hope to see is the fluency. Will he know when to use which technique, which is the best way to use it, what are the likely responses and then counters to those responses, etc.
It's not the matrix, you can't just download expertise from a flash drive.
I don't think that is a fair comparison. Besides if my fulltime job was to learn mandarin with professional trainers teaching me around the clock, I'm pretty sure within a year I would make significant gains and I'm not someone who is uncanny in my ability to learn languages. Plus, I think there are tens of millions of Americans would could get really good at mandarin within a year if that is all they did. There aren't tens of millions of Americans who would be good at rushing a passer if all they did was train for it. 95% of being of NFL player has nothing to do with training or technique and instead is just pure genetic gifts. I was halfway decent football player back in high school but had zero chance of the NFL as I don't have the right combination of size and athleticism. Walker appears to not only be blessed with those genetic gifts but appears to be unusually blessed amongst his peers. With his raw power he should easily be able to counter a lineman who is overcompensating for that. To your point he is in a new role so I wouldn't expect to see a wide variety of pass rush moves after a year and a half of professional development. But how has he not developed at least one thing that is effective and can be used as a counter to his ability to bull rush? Just one. Maybe that'll change as the year goes on but he still doesnt seem to have anything other than his natural ability at this point.
Now it is possible that while Walker has all the physical gifts, there is something on the mental side he wasn't blessed with. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning back or off balance where you instinctively know to bull rush. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning in too much and you can rip around him. And maybe that is what ultimately separates the elite rushers from the average ones. They have the required physical tools but also some innate understanding of balance and leverage and how to apply it. Very possible Walker has been taught a variety of moves but doesnt instinctually know how to use them.
(09-12-2023, 08:20 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (09-11-2023, 08:52 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]How hard can that possibly be to learn? Been through two off-seasons now. On many rushes it doesn't look like he uses any pass rush moves. They either aren't teaching him or he just isn't using what they've tried to teach him. Or possibly he just isn't good at any of them.
It's like learning a foreign language. You may know the words, but fluency takes time of use, demonstration, observation and rehearsal. I'm assuming you're at least in your twenties. Start trying to learn Mandarin, and see how far you are in a year. How often do you still fumble around changes in syntax, or misstate a word, or someone uses words that you haven't developed familiarity yet? Are you fully conversant with someone who's been speaking the language for many years? Can you interact spontaneously based on their contribution?
It's the same thing here - Travon has spent 10+ years at least playing football in a given way, and is being introduced to a new concept/language. At this point, he's got the vocabulary. What we hope to see is the fluency. Will he know when to use which technique, which is the best way to use it, what are the likely responses and then counters to those responses, etc.
It's not the matrix, you can't just download expertise from a flash drive.
But what if he uses ChapGPT?
We just played the Clots. Their OL and team is bad. The DL should have looked good. Let's see how they look against KC.
(09-12-2023, 10:15 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-12-2023, 08:20 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]It's like learning a foreign language. You may know the words, but fluency takes time of use, demonstration, observation and rehearsal. I'm assuming you're at least in your twenties. Start trying to learn Mandarin, and see how far you are in a year. How often do you still fumble around changes in syntax, or misstate a word, or someone uses words that you haven't developed familiarity yet? Are you fully conversant with someone who's been speaking the language for many years? Can you interact spontaneously based on their contribution?
It's the same thing here - Travon has spent 10+ years at least playing football in a given way, and is being introduced to a new concept/language. At this point, he's got the vocabulary. What we hope to see is the fluency. Will he know when to use which technique, which is the best way to use it, what are the likely responses and then counters to those responses, etc.
It's not the matrix, you can't just download expertise from a flash drive.
I don't think that is a fair comparison. Besides if my fulltime job was to learn mandarin with professional trainers teaching me around the clock, I'm pretty sure within a year I would make significant gains and I'm not someone who is uncanny in my ability to learn languages. Plus, I think there are tens of millions of Americans would could get really good at mandarin within a year if that is all they did. There aren't tens of millions of Americans who would be good at rushing a passer if all they did was train for it. 95% of being of NFL player has nothing to do with training or technique and instead is just pure genetic gifts. I was halfway decent football player back in high school but had zero chance of the NFL as I don't have the right combination of size and athleticism. Walker appears to not only be blessed with those genetic gifts but appears to be unusually blessed amongst his peers. With his raw power he should easily be able to counter a lineman who is overcompensating for that. To your point he is in a new role so I wouldn't expect to see a wide variety of pass rush moves after a year and a half of professional development. But how has he not developed at least one thing that is effective and can be used as a counter to his ability to bull rush? Just one. Maybe that'll change as the year goes on but he still doesnt seem to have anything other than his natural ability at this point.
Now it is possible that while Walker has all the physical gifts, there is something on the mental side he wasn't blessed with. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning back or off balance where you instinctively know to bull rush. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning in too much and you can rip around him. And maybe that is what ultimately separates the elite rushers from the average ones. They have the required physical tools but also some innate understanding of balance and leverage and how to apply it. Very possible Walker has been taught a variety of moves but doesnt instinctually know how to use them.
A. Walker's job is much more than just pass rushing so that isn't the only thing he trains to do. Even on some passing plays they have him drop back in coverage, so that is another difficult skill he has had to learn.
B. You are out of your mind if you think tens of millions of Americans could get really good at Mandarin in a year. Most Americans haven't gotten really good at English and they have been learning it their whole life.
He didn't have the luxury of being able to get all the pass rushing reps in college that most of his contemporaries got, so he will naturally have a developmental disadvantage. To expect him to be at their skill level after only one season is a bit much.
(09-12-2023, 10:15 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-12-2023, 08:20 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]It's like learning a foreign language. You may know the words, but fluency takes time of use, demonstration, observation and rehearsal. I'm assuming you're at least in your twenties. Start trying to learn Mandarin, and see how far you are in a year. How often do you still fumble around changes in syntax, or misstate a word, or someone uses words that you haven't developed familiarity yet? Are you fully conversant with someone who's been speaking the language for many years? Can you interact spontaneously based on their contribution?
It's the same thing here - Travon has spent 10+ years at least playing football in a given way, and is being introduced to a new concept/language. At this point, he's got the vocabulary. What we hope to see is the fluency. Will he know when to use which technique, which is the best way to use it, what are the likely responses and then counters to those responses, etc.
It's not the matrix, you can't just download expertise from a flash drive.
I don't think that is a fair comparison. Besides if my fulltime job was to learn mandarin with professional trainers teaching me around the clock, I'm pretty sure within a year I would make significant gains and I'm not someone who is uncanny in my ability to learn languages. Plus, I think there are tens of millions of Americans would could get really good at mandarin within a year if that is all they did. There aren't tens of millions of Americans who would be good at rushing a passer if all they did was train for it. 95% of being of NFL player has nothing to do with training or technique and instead is just pure genetic gifts. I was halfway decent football player back in high school but had zero chance of the NFL as I don't have the right combination of size and athleticism. Walker appears to not only be blessed with those genetic gifts but appears to be unusually blessed amongst his peers. With his raw power he should easily be able to counter a lineman who is overcompensating for that. To your point he is in a new role so I wouldn't expect to see a wide variety of pass rush moves after a year and a half of professional development. But how has he not developed at least one thing that is effective and can be used as a counter to his ability to bull rush? Just one. Maybe that'll change as the year goes on but he still doesnt seem to have anything other than his natural ability at this point.
Now it is possible that while Walker has all the physical gifts, there is something on the mental side he wasn't blessed with. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning back or off balance where you instinctively know to bull rush. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning in too much and you can rip around him. And maybe that is what ultimately separates the elite rushers from the average ones. They have the required physical tools but also some innate understanding of balance and leverage and how to apply it. Very possible Walker has been taught a variety of moves but doesnt instinctually know how to use them.
Your second paragraph is the very fluency to which I referred. The elite guys can either combine moves to leave the OT dumbfounded in way that wordsmiths can turn language into art, or don't have to stop and process as new information is presented. It's natural, it's fluid, almost instinctive.
He can get there. But it's not an instantaneous thing. Don't forget, in addition to Mandarin, he's also getting doses of Quechua, Arabic, and French as he's learning other moves and strategies at the same time. It's not like they practice hand skill exclusively every practice.
(09-12-2023, 05:04 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ] (09-12-2023, 10:15 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that is a fair comparison. Besides if my fulltime job was to learn mandarin with professional trainers teaching me around the clock, I'm pretty sure within a year I would make significant gains and I'm not someone who is uncanny in my ability to learn languages. Plus, I think there are tens of millions of Americans would could get really good at mandarin within a year if that is all they did. There aren't tens of millions of Americans who would be good at rushing a passer if all they did was train for it. 95% of being of NFL player has nothing to do with training or technique and instead is just pure genetic gifts. I was halfway decent football player back in high school but had zero chance of the NFL as I don't have the right combination of size and athleticism. Walker appears to not only be blessed with those genetic gifts but appears to be unusually blessed amongst his peers. With his raw power he should easily be able to counter a lineman who is overcompensating for that. To your point he is in a new role so I wouldn't expect to see a wide variety of pass rush moves after a year and a half of professional development. But how has he not developed at least one thing that is effective and can be used as a counter to his ability to bull rush? Just one. Maybe that'll change as the year goes on but he still doesnt seem to have anything other than his natural ability at this point.
Now it is possible that while Walker has all the physical gifts, there is something on the mental side he wasn't blessed with. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning back or off balance where you instinctively know to bull rush. Maybe there is some innate ability to recognize when a lineman is leaning in too much and you can rip around him. And maybe that is what ultimately separates the elite rushers from the average ones. They have the required physical tools but also some innate understanding of balance and leverage and how to apply it. Very possible Walker has been taught a variety of moves but doesnt instinctually know how to use them.
A. Walker's job is much more than just pass rushing so that isn't the only thing he trains to do. Even on some passing plays they have him drop back in coverage, so that is another difficult skill he has had to learn.
B. You are out of your mind if you think tens of millions of Americans could get really good at Mandarin in a year. Most Americans haven't gotten really good at English and they have been learning it their whole life.
He didn't have the luxury of being able to get all the pass rushing reps in college that most of his contemporaries got, so he will naturally have a developmental disadvantage. To expect him to be at their skill level after only one season is a bit much.
/audible guffaw at number B
It's time to call it what it is, he's been a massive bust as a #1 overall player.
Doesn't matter if he's out of position, at least you would be able to see a glimpse of something with his raw "athleticism" that he wow'ed our staff with during the combine. Clearly Baalke was fooled by the metrics.
Guy is not a pass-rusher whatsoever and has been a massive letdown.
I like the fact that he continues to do what he always does. It's so Jaguars.
I said I would give him until week 10. I think today was his biggest opportunity to flash and it just didn't happen.
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Can’t expect a DT to get on the edge and produce. Just ain’t gone happen. How does a millionaire NFL coach see it different.
(09-24-2023, 03:46 PM)enigma Wrote: [ -> ]It's time to call it what it is, he's been a massive bust as a #1 overall player.
Doesn't matter if he's out of position, at least you would be able to see a glimpse of something with his raw "athleticism" that he wow'ed our staff with during the combine. Clearly Baalke was fooled by the metrics.
Guy is not a pass-rusher whatsoever and has been a massive letdown.
Hesitate to call him an outright bust but he was clearly over drafted and Hutch should have been the pick. Baalke’s not the only guy to get all caught up in measurables though and ignore (lack of) actual production in college. If he signs a second contract in Jax, I’ll be mildly surprised.
Worthless, a bust, the worst starting OLB in the league and a historically bad draft pick. Trade him for a ham sandwich and move on.
I still stand by everything I said a couple weeks ago. With two full offseasons in an NFL camp, it is mind blowing to me that he hasn't been able to learn just one pass move which he can consistently use multiple times in a game. Doesn't have to beat the guy every time but will occasionally create havoc for the quarterback. I still just don't see how it is that difficult. I suppose at some point you have to come to the conclusion that he is just incapable of doing so.
Still early. Can't write him off yet. But it is very surprising and disappointing that we have seen so little.
He was overdrafted. He was never going to really hit until end of this season or his 3rd season, if he did hit. It made no sense to draft him No. 1.
They should have draft Hutch or traded the pick for whatever.
He can still be a good player, but he will never live up to anyone's expectations for a No. 1 pick.