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I'm still optimistic his pass rush will eventually show up more consistently. He already contributes significantly against the run.

(10-22-2023, 10:19 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still optimistic his pass rush will eventually show up more consistently.  He already contributes significantly against the run.

If they move him inside his pass rush will show up a lot more. I shared a highlight reel of this from his days as a Bulldog last week. It's pretty clear this coaching staff is stubborn as hell with this fact. 

He's really good about outright overpowering his man in front of him in shorter distances. You win on two things here in my opinion with his strength. He's either going to force the runner to bounce outside or hit the deck or he's going to get after the QB and enable the outside rushers to feast.

He's not naturally gifted enough nor fine tuned enough to be an effective pass rusher standing up from the outside backer position. It's just not working after roughly 25 games into his career. They might give it one more week in Pittsburgh, but, if they don't consider moving him inside during the bye week they're extremely foolish.

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Walker has projected upwards. I just think he's being used out of place. I keep harping on Pittsburgh and the bye week. At some point they have to consider moving him into a position that can better serve the defense. Pressure is nice. Sacks that result in negative yardage are better. 

If we're going to challenge anybody down the stretch or in the post season we're going to need another presence to emerge as a real threat off the edge or down the middle that can collapse a pocket.

i think right now we don't have anyone who can play that edge without a talent drop off. if we were to trade for Hunter i think they would move Walker inside and Allen and Hunter would be outside. and then Chaisson would be Special teams and backup and not see the field much if at all.

(10-23-2023, 09:55 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Walker has projected upwards. I just think he's being used out of place. I keep harping on Pittsburgh and the bye week. At some point they have to consider moving him into a position that can better serve the defense. Pressure is nice. Sacks that result in negative yardage are better. 

If we're going to challenge anybody down the stretch or in the post season we're going to need another presence to emerge as a real threat off the edge or down the middle that can collapse a pocket.

I'd like to see some specific stats on this, but I suspect it has to do with Walker's ability to defend the run in that direction to the extent that they're content with the bulk of the pass rush pressure coming from Allen.  Not that fans can't be right on things, but coaches are dealing with a lot more information and a lot more analytics than we are and I suspect the notion you suggest has been considered and decided against for one (probably good) reason or another.

(10-23-2023, 10:03 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 09:55 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Walker has projected upwards. I just think he's being used out of place. I keep harping on Pittsburgh and the bye week. At some point they have to consider moving him into a position that can better serve the defense. Pressure is nice. Sacks that result in negative yardage are better. 

If we're going to challenge anybody down the stretch or in the post season we're going to need another presence to emerge as a real threat off the edge or down the middle that can collapse a pocket.

I'd like to see some specific stats on this, but I suspect it has to do with Walker's ability to defend the run in that direction to the extent that they're content with the bulk of the pass rush pressure coming from Allen.  Not that fans can't be right on things, but coaches are dealing with a lot more information and a lot more analytics than we are and I suspect the notion you suggest has been considered and decided against for one (probably good) reason or another.

I am sure they feel and see things differently. At the minimum, if it's a 3rd and obvious passing down situation they need to consider some kind of consistent, designed pass rush package that involves getting our best out of everybody. 

Maybe they stack Allen at OLB with Walker kicked inside next to him to create a better 1 Vs. 1 situation or to outright collapse the pocket from inside. Maybe they can start stacking Smoot out there with Hamilton at some point. Smoot should enable Walker to become more available to move inside in my opinion.

(10-23-2023, 09:55 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Walker has projected upwards. I just think he's being used out of place. I keep harping on Pittsburgh and the bye week. At some point they have to consider moving him into a position that can better serve the defense. Pressure is nice. Sacks that result in negative yardage are better. 

If we're going to challenge anybody down the stretch or in the post season we're going to need another presence to emerge as a real threat off the edge or down the middle that can collapse a pocket.

There was no push in the middle.
Allen and Walker were winning but Carr had plenty of space to step up and step into throws

Ham and Walker would be one helluva push up the middle….

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Wow, I sure didn't see that.  I would really love to see a film breakdown of what they saw that I didn't see.

(10-23-2023, 12:01 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Wow, I sure didn't see that.  I would really love to see a film breakdown of what they saw that I didn't see.

Anything that constitutes a "win" against his individual opponent counts.

That includes his bullrush if it in some way limits the QBs options on the play. 

He's very good at this and does it frequently. 
Of course we Jags fans are at the point of not appreciating it because we're hungry for him to learn how to disengage from it and get his hands on the QB more often. 

He doesn't have an arsenal of moves to shed blocks yet and we don't know if it's coming down the pike or not.
He does everything else he's supposed to do at a high level, but the thing he's missing is vital to the position. 

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Noticing some of those calling to move him, and I get that. But I'm totally against the idea of just making him play a different position suddenly. 
Some rotational snaps at 3T or 5T in passing situations is fine, but he's not built to play inside the whole game as things stand. He'd need to bulk up over an offseason.

(10-23-2023, 12:01 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 09:16 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/17...82247?s=20

Wow, I sure didn't see that.  I would really love to see a film breakdown of what they saw that I didn't see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLqgu7n7Pw

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He drew quite a bit of double teams against the Saints. I noticed he still tries to treat every engaged blocker like a sled. He also has a poor habit of playing his hands too low.

He's trying to do some type of knee or hip bend at times to maybe get around his blocker but man I would love to see this kid do something different. A swim move, a swat move, something.

(10-23-2023, 12:11 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:01 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, I sure didn't see that.  I would really love to see a film breakdown of what they saw that I didn't see.

Anything that constitutes a "win" against his individual opponent counts.

That includes his bullrush if it in some way limits the QBs options on the play. 

He's very good at this and does it frequently. 
Of course we Jags fans are at the point of not appreciating it because we're hungry for him to learn how to disengage from it and get his hands on the QB more often. 

He doesn't have an arsenal of moves to shed blocks yet and we don't know if it's coming down the pike or not.
He does everything else he's supposed to do at a high level, but the thing he's missing is vital to the position. 

---

Noticing some of those calling to move him, and I get that. But I'm totally against the idea of just making him play a different position suddenly. 
Some rotational snaps at 3T or 5T in passing situations is fine, but he's not built to play inside the whole game as things stand. He'd need to bulk up over an offseason.

Then pass rush win rate is a pretty dumb stat, because if all he does is stand up, that limits the QB's options on the play.  I looked at that video and I saw one single instance that I would call a win.  But, I don't know what standard that person used who said he was 7th last week in pass rush win rate, and if a "pass-rush win" is simply "limiting the QB's options," I suppose he won on every play, theoretically, just by being on the field.  

I'm not as down on him as some people are, but I think that pass rush win rate has to be pretty bogus.

(10-23-2023, 12:27 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:11 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Anything that constitutes a "win" against his individual opponent counts.

That includes his bullrush if it in some way limits the QBs options on the play. 

He's very good at this and does it frequently. 
Of course we Jags fans are at the point of not appreciating it because we're hungry for him to learn how to disengage from it and get his hands on the QB more often. 

He doesn't have an arsenal of moves to shed blocks yet and we don't know if it's coming down the pike or not.
He does everything else he's supposed to do at a high level, but the thing he's missing is vital to the position. 

---

Noticing some of those calling to move him, and I get that. But I'm totally against the idea of just making him play a different position suddenly. 
Some rotational snaps at 3T or 5T in passing situations is fine, but he's not built to play inside the whole game as things stand. He'd need to bulk up over an offseason.

Then pass rush win rate is a pretty dumb stat, because if all he does is stand up, that limits the QB's options on the play.  I looked at that video and I saw one single instance that I would call a win.  But, I don't know what standard that person used who said he was 7th last week in pass rush win rate, and if a "pass-rush win" is simply "limiting the QB's options," I suppose he won on every play, theoretically, just by being on the field.  

I'm not as down on him as some people are, but I think that pass rush win rate has to be pretty bogus.

I agree with this. For me, a "win" would be when a defender either:

A. Directly forces the QB to flush out of the pocket and throw an incompletion, check down or turnover. 
B. Directly getting his hand on the QB and taking him nearly down.
C. Destroying his blocker after engagement which results in him putting his guy on the ground completely or making him whiff big time.

Simply engaging a blocker and pushing him back like a sled doesn't cut it for me. Unless he throws his blocker into the QB. That would be pretty cool to see. If you can't get to the QB? Do the next best thing and seismic toss your blocker into the QB.

(10-23-2023, 12:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:27 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Then pass rush win rate is a pretty dumb stat, because if all he does is stand up, that limits the QB's options on the play.  I looked at that video and I saw one single instance that I would call a win.  But, I don't know what standard that person used who said he was 7th last week in pass rush win rate, and if a "pass-rush win" is simply "limiting the QB's options," I suppose he won on every play, theoretically, just by being on the field.  

I'm not as down on him as some people are, but I think that pass rush win rate has to be pretty bogus.

I agree with this. For me, a "win" would be when a defender either:

A. Directly forces the QB to flush out of the pocket and throw an incompletion, check down or turnover. 
B. Directly getting his hand on the QB and taking him nearly down.
C. Destroying his blocker after engagement which results in him putting his guy on the ground completely or making him whiff big time.

Simply engaging a blocker and pushing him back like a sled doesn't cut it for me. Unless he throws his blocker into the QB. That would be pretty cool to see. If you can't get to the QB? Do the next best thing and seismic toss your blocker into the QB.

Sorta like this?  

Trying to block Reggie White goes HORRIBLY wrong! #shorts - YouTube

(10-23-2023, 12:27 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:11 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Anything that constitutes a "win" against his individual opponent counts.

That includes his bullrush if it in some way limits the QBs options on the play. 

He's very good at this and does it frequently. 
Of course we Jags fans are at the point of not appreciating it because we're hungry for him to learn how to disengage from it and get his hands on the QB more often. 

He doesn't have an arsenal of moves to shed blocks yet and we don't know if it's coming down the pike or not.
He does everything else he's supposed to do at a high level, but the thing he's missing is vital to the position. 

---

Noticing some of those calling to move him, and I get that. But I'm totally against the idea of just making him play a different position suddenly. 
Some rotational snaps at 3T or 5T in passing situations is fine, but he's not built to play inside the whole game as things stand. He'd need to bulk up over an offseason.

Then pass rush win rate is a pretty dumb stat, because if all he does is stand up, that limits the QB's options on the play.  I looked at that video and I saw one single instance that I would call a win.  But, I don't know what standard that person used who said he was 7th last week in pass rush win rate, and if a "pass-rush win" is simply "limiting the QB's options," I suppose he won on every play, theoretically, just by being on the field.  

I'm not as down on him as some people are, but I think that pass rush win rate has to be pretty bogus.

(10-23-2023, 12:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:27 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Then pass rush win rate is a pretty dumb stat, because if all he does is stand up, that limits the QB's options on the play.  I looked at that video and I saw one single instance that I would call a win.  But, I don't know what standard that person used who said he was 7th last week in pass rush win rate, and if a "pass-rush win" is simply "limiting the QB's options," I suppose he won on every play, theoretically, just by being on the field.  

I'm not as down on him as some people are, but I think that pass rush win rate has to be pretty bogus.

I agree with this. For me, a "win" would be when a defender either:

A. Directly forces the QB to flush out of the pocket and throw an incompletion, check down or turnover. 
B. Directly getting his hand on the QB and taking him nearly down.
C. Destroying his blocker after engagement which results in him putting his guy on the ground completely or making him whiff big time.

Simply engaging a blocker and pushing him back like a sled doesn't cut it for me. Unless he throws his blocker into the QB. That would be pretty cool to see. If you can't get to the QB? Do the next best thing and seismic toss your blocker into the QB.

The pass rush win rate stat

Apologies - I incorrectly conflated the definitions of two different stats when I posted that. Bad memory. 

The pass rush win rate stat is very important in my book. You've probably heard me harp on about 2.5 seconds being the magic number for an NFL QB to make a few reads and get a throw out. 

The win rate stat uses that number as a benchmark. 
If a pass rusher wins the rep/beats the block in under 2.5 seconds it is a "win"

ESPN:
Our pass rush win rate metric tells us how often a pass-rusher is able to beat his block within 2.5 seconds. Likewise, our pass block win rate metric conveys the rate linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer.

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That is the shortest of short answers ^

The FULL breakdown is pretty involved and relies heavily on the pass rusher's proximity to the QB and whether he is affecting the QBs ability to step up or move laterally to complete a pass. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2489...q-how-work

(10-23-2023, 12:38 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 12:31 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with this. For me, a "win" would be when a defender either:

A. Directly forces the QB to flush out of the pocket and throw an incompletion, check down or turnover. 
B. Directly getting his hand on the QB and taking him nearly down.
C. Destroying his blocker after engagement which results in him putting his guy on the ground completely or making him whiff big time.

Simply engaging a blocker and pushing him back like a sled doesn't cut it for me. Unless he throws his blocker into the QB. That would be pretty cool to see. If you can't get to the QB? Do the next best thing and seismic toss your blocker into the QB.

Sorta like this?  

Trying to block Reggie White goes HORRIBLY wrong! #shorts - YouTube

Yep. That's one of my favorite moves. Didn't get to see it as Reggie White was before most of my time but his highlight reels are fantastic. 

Between Reggie White's hump move, Dwight Freeney's spin move and Deacon Jones' head slap those are all fun to watch on old highlight reels. 

It's just unusual to see a guy of Walker's size and strength not incorporating something into his pass rush ability. If he's uncomfortable trying to spin he could maybe try and jam his blocker upwards with his bullrush and then try and post up on him like a basketball defender with his back to him to try and lean back inside or something to drive into the basket. 

Not a full spin move but a half effort. 

He just doesn't do anything. I don't know if anybody's asking him in interviews or Caldwell or the positional coach but it just seems like he's not incorporating much into his game.

(10-23-2023, 08:27 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-22-2023, 10:19 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still optimistic his pass rush will eventually show up more consistently.  He already contributes significantly against the run.

If they move him inside his pass rush will show up a lot more. I shared a highlight reel of this from his days as a Bulldog last week. It's pretty clear this coaching staff is stubborn as hell with this fact. 

He's really good about outright overpowering his man in front of him in shorter distances. You win on two things here in my opinion with his strength. He's either going to force the runner to bounce outside or hit the deck or he's going to get after the QB and enable the outside rushers to feast.

He's not naturally gifted enough nor fine tuned enough to be an effective pass rusher standing up from the outside backer position. It's just not working after roughly 25 games into his career. They might give it one more week in Pittsburgh, but, if they don't consider moving him inside during the bye week they're extremely foolish.

Good discussion regarding Walker. I agree with you about moving him inside to best utilize his strengths. My hope is that the Vikings get blown out tonight and decide to move Hunter. On 1010 this morning, Hays Carlyon speculated that the Jaguars would wait until after the Steelers game to decide on whether or not to pursue a pass rusher prior to 10/31. I wouldn't wait that long as another team needing a pass rusher might beat them to it. Offer a 2nd or 3rd rounder plus Chaisson and see if that will get it done. If that's not enough, I like the idea of trading our first rounder for their 2nd rounder. We could even throw in Chaisson and a ham sandwich to clinch the deal. 

After watching the Chiefs yesterday, I foresee another loss to them in the playoffs unless we add another difference-making pass rusher. With the Bills and Chargers not looking great, this may be the best chance for the Jaguars to get their first Super Bowl. The thought of a defense with Allen and Hunter on the Edge and a healthy Hamilton and Walker in the middle of the line would give any opposing quarterback nightmares- even Mahomes.

(10-23-2023, 01:31 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-23-2023, 08:27 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]If they move him inside his pass rush will show up a lot more. I shared a highlight reel of this from his days as a Bulldog last week. It's pretty clear this coaching staff is stubborn as hell with this fact. 

He's really good about outright overpowering his man in front of him in shorter distances. You win on two things here in my opinion with his strength. He's either going to force the runner to bounce outside or hit the deck or he's going to get after the QB and enable the outside rushers to feast.

He's not naturally gifted enough nor fine tuned enough to be an effective pass rusher standing up from the outside backer position. It's just not working after roughly 25 games into his career. They might give it one more week in Pittsburgh, but, if they don't consider moving him inside during the bye week they're extremely foolish.

Good discussion regarding Walker. I agree with you about moving him inside to best utilize his strengths. My hope is that the Vikings get blown out tonight and decide to move Hunter. On 1010 this morning, Hays Carlyon speculated that the Jaguars would wait until after the Steelers game to decide on whether or not to pursue a pass rusher prior to 10/31. I wouldn't wait that long as another team needing a pass rusher might beat them to it. Offer a 2nd or 3rd rounder plus Chaisson and see if that will get it done. If that's not enough, I like the idea of trading our first rounder for their 2nd rounder. We could even throw in Chaisson and a ham sandwich to clinch the deal. 

After watching the Chiefs yesterday, I foresee another loss to them in the playoffs unless we add another difference-making pass rusher. With the Bills and Chargers not looking great, this may be the best chance for the Jaguars to get their first Super Bowl. The thought of a defense with Allen and Hunter on the Edge and a healthy Hamilton and Walker in the middle of the line would give any opposing quarterback nightmares- even Mahomes.

Agreed. The Chiefs were around Herbert all day yesterday with primarily their base front. We have to be able to keep pace with these teams with line play improvement on both sides. The Eagles did it last night with their base front with the Dolphins most of the time.

(10-22-2023, 02:28 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Kinda Reminds me of Dante Fowler. We drafted him 3rd overall. He was very rough his first couple of years but wound up being a solid player. He never was worthy of the pick. I kinda see the same thing in Walker. He may develop into a solid player but never will be worthy of the pick. A bust is almost a lock for 1st overall. He is starter worthy so not a total loss just not that difference maker we needed.

Treyvon wishes he was half as good of a pass rusher as Fowler (not that Fowler is great or anything lol). 

I am losing patience with him.