(09-08-2023, 08:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 07:55 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]The hyping up of Hutch from last night is a little out of control around here. He played well, but wasn't "dominant" or "unblockable". 2 tackles on the stat sheet, no sacks. At least a couple of QB hits, one of which was blatantly late and should have been called roughing considering how the league has been calling things over the past 10 years or so. Sure he helped collapse the pocket at times and created pressure. I also saw Taylor completely handle him a lot of times as well. I don't recall him ever embarrassing Taylor.
At least one of his hits on Mahomes came off a delayed stunt. Good for him for being relentless, but that doesn't contribute to the description of being "unblockable". He played well for not registering a sack or TFL. Other than that, try and relax a bit. It's still way too early for second guessing and Travon should be much improved as well with a full offseason behind him now. I'm sure many Jaguar fan eyes will be watching him specifically on Sunday.
Again, we can play the other side of the coin with the same people that champion Josh Allen for virtually being the same guy with more years of experience under his belt. Say what you want about Hutchinson. Taylor was playing his [BLEEP] off to get a head start. Something even Collinsworth had to call out routinely to the point to where he said in the 4th quarter late "Oh, finally! Now they're calling him for a false start!"
Hutchinson was getting chipped constantly, they were throwing everything at him to keep him away from Mahomes. It's Mahomes, man. Mahomes. He's one of the slipperiest QB's in the pocket. He was still able to effect him more often than not. At least enough to help hold them to 20 points offensively. And it's not just about last night's game. It's about the full body of work so far. Hutchinson clearly had the better rookie season and last night's game is why he did.
Walker needs to show less guess work in his play this year and more violence, more consistency and more disruption. We'll see if he can do it starting this Sunday. I think he can. I hope he can. That's all we can do.
The chipping was most evident on the first drive. It wasn't constant. After that, what I mostly saw was an occasional double team when the guard next to Taylor had no apparent defender near him and decided to help the edge vs the interior. i.e. it wasn't a designed double team.
And you're blaming Taylor's historical tendency to jump back as he does on Hutchinson? Come on man. That's what Taylor has always done. I routinely last year saw him do the same thing here and thought he's borderline to get a false start multiple times a game. You are kinda proving my point here. This is an overreaction to last night. I mean, can Travon get a game in? Lol.
(09-08-2023, 08:27 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 08:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Again, we can play the other side of the coin with the same people that champion Josh Allen for virtually being the same guy with more years of experience under his belt. Say what you want about Hutchinson. Taylor was playing his [BLEEP] off to get a head start. Something even Collinsworth had to call out routinely to the point to where he said in the 4th quarter late "Oh, finally! Now they're calling him for a false start!"
Hutchinson was getting chipped constantly, they were throwing everything at him to keep him away from Mahomes. It's Mahomes, man. Mahomes. He's one of the slipperiest QB's in the pocket. He was still able to effect him more often than not. At least enough to help hold them to 20 points offensively. And it's not just about last night's game. It's about the full body of work so far. Hutchinson clearly had the better rookie season and last night's game is why he did.
Walker needs to show less guess work in his play this year and more violence, more consistency and more disruption. We'll see if he can do it starting this Sunday. I think he can. I hope he can. That's all we can do.
The chipping was most evident on the first drive. It wasn't constant. After that, what I mostly saw was an occasional double team when the guard next to Taylor had no apparent defender near him and decided to help the edge vs the interior. i.e. it wasn't a designed double team.
And you're blaming Taylor's historical tendency to jump back as he does on Hutchinson? Come on man. That's what Taylor has always done. I routinely last year saw him do the same thing here and thought he's borderline to get a false start multiple times a game. You are kinda proving my point here. This is an overreaction to last night. I mean, can Travon get a game in? Lol.
I don't think so. We can agree to disagree. Again, through 18 regular season games. Hutchison > Walker. Whether it's an eye test or on the stat sheet. So far, advantage Hutchinson. I'll leave it at that. Happy Friday!
(09-07-2023, 07:31 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]The sad fact is this team may have messed up my not taking Hutchison. We will know pretty soon if Walker can turn his athletic ability into results on the field.
I was thinking this last night too, but for all his (?) disruption, still had 0 sacks on the night.
For the stat-hungry around here, that would be deemed a failure.
I agree though, I draft the floor more than I draft the ceiling. I hope we see some heat from Walker this year, playing with leads and a decent to good defensive backfield should bolster the production.
(09-08-2023, 08:39 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2023, 07:31 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]The sad fact is this team may have messed up my not taking Hutchison. We will know pretty soon if Walker can turn his athletic ability into results on the field.
I was thinking this last night too, but for all his (?) disruption, still had 0 sacks on the night.
For the stat-hungry around here, that would be deemed a failure.
I agree though, I draft the floor more than I draft the ceiling. I hope we see some heat from Walker this year, playing with leads and a decent to good defensive backfield should bolster the production.
Depends. We also have a lot of "in between the stats" guru's around here that championed Josh Allen like a mofo last year when some of us wanted him traded by the deadline. There's more to rushing the QB apparently outside of just "sacks". So I am told.
(09-08-2023, 08:46 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 08:39 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]I was thinking this last night too, but for all his (?) disruption, still had 0 sacks on the night.
For the stat-hungry around here, that would be deemed a failure.
I agree though, I draft the floor more than I draft the ceiling. I hope we see some heat from Walker this year, playing with leads and a decent to good defensive backfield should bolster the production.
Depends. We also have a lot of "in between the stats" guru's around here that championed Josh Allen like a mofo last year when some of us wanted him traded by the deadline. There's more to rushing the QB apparently outside of just "sacks". So I am told.
Yeah you have to rely on your eyes over the stat sheet, but getting home and other play ending stats do matter for pass rushers (i.e. sacks, TFLs, PD's etc). You have to get home occasionally. That was the defense on Harvey here many years ago. He never showed up on the stat sheet, but we were told he was getting lots of pressures and getting close.
And yes Hutch has the advantage in the stat sheet thus far, but you have to use your eyes on how he's getting what he does. It's the same way he was getting it in college. Nothing has changed. He's not a "beat you with speed and bend" guy. He's not a "beat you with power" guy. He's a "beat you with relentlessness and scheme" guy. Travon hasn't been really any of those 3 consistently yet, but I think he could still potentially be all 3. I don't think Hutch will ever be the first 2. I'd add, if you're ever going to be a defender that "takes over the game" you need to be 1 of the first 2.
Year 1 to 2 is where'd I'd expect to see the biggest jump from Travon. I'll start getting concerned 4 or 5 weeks in and nothing has changed for him, but for now I'm expecting production out of him pretty early in the season.
(09-08-2023, 06:35 AM)Hurricane Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2023, 11:46 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]this
you don't roll the dice on an upside pick only to condemn it without letting him realize potential
This isn't one card stud. It's Texas hold 'em - and we haven't even seen the river.
I think the same could be said for "rolling the dice" on a #1 pick.... you don't.
Yes, I've posted several times that choosing an upside pick early is always going to be controversial.
But once it's done - you can't suddenly behave like that player wasn't always supposed to have a developmental transition to the league.
This isn't pointed at you personally, but - It's pretty funny how attitudes have shifted since drafting the kid.
Seems like we had around 30-40% of the fan base opposed to the pick - another 30% with a wait and see attitude - and the remainder fired up for the freak show athlete upside.
Now you're lucky to find 10% of the fan base with any inkling of patience for a 22 year old kid with a bright future
I know instant gratification is the order of the day, but it's pretty laughable to me.
I still think the kid will pan out to be really good. I really do.
I think we'll see a nice step from him this year, and the better the back seven become in coverage over this year and the next, so will his disruption.
I don't feel right about lambasting a rookie for not getting home enough when your defense plays a lot of zone that basically surrenders the middle of the field underneath due to a combo of scheme + bad play from ILB and SS in coverage duty.
(09-08-2023, 09:24 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 06:35 AM)Hurricane Wrote: [ -> ]I think the same could be said for "rolling the dice" on a #1 pick.... you don't.
Yes, I've posted several times that choosing an upside pick early is always going to be controversial.
But once it's done - you can't suddenly behave like that player wasn't always supposed to have a developmental transition to the league.
This isn't pointed at you personally, but - It's pretty funny how attitudes have shifted since drafting the kid.
Seems like we had around 30-40% of the fan base opposed to the pick - another 30% with a wait and see attitude - and the remainder fired up for the freak show athlete upside.
Now you're lucky to find 10% of the fan base with any inkling of patience for a 22 year old kid with a bright future
I know instant gratification is the order of the day, but it's pretty laughable to me.
I still think the kid will pan out to be really good. I really do.
I think we'll see a nice step from him this year, and the better the back seven become in coverage over this year and the next, so will his disruption.
I don't feel right about lambasting a rookie for not getting home enough when your defense plays a lot of zone that basically surrenders the middle of the field underneath due to a combo of scheme + bad play from ILB and SS in coverage duty.
I was relatively fair. I put a lot on the coaching staff as well. Same position taken with Lloyd and Fortner.
You took Walker as a rookie, a naturally strong, freak athlete that was better suited with his hands in the dirt and you made him stand upright on the outside as a backer. He looked hesitant at times and was it was obvious he was better playing inside Vs. standing up.
You took Lloyd as a rookie, a naturally gifted athlete that played outside backer at Utah, was comfortable playing coverages on one side of the field and blitzing after the QB and you shifted him inside to play middle backer.
You took Fortner as a rookie, a guy that played three or four years as a Guard at Kentucky and only had one year of experience as a Center and thrusted him into the starting line-up, with, let's be fair, a pretty pedestrian at best supporting cast around him.
I don't hate the players. I hate the evaluation process sometimes along with pigeon holing players into positions they never played at in college. If the NFL speed is a [BLEEP] to adjust to? Why double down on that difficulty by throwing that at them PLUS a new position or role? Hopefully it all pays off in 2023.
A lot of these little complaints and grievances can be masked simply because we have the QB and head coach to overcome a lot of these weaknesses. At least enough to get us into the play-offs.
(09-08-2023, 09:24 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 06:35 AM)Hurricane Wrote: [ -> ]I think the same could be said for "rolling the dice" on a #1 pick.... you don't.
Yes, I've posted several times that choosing an upside pick early is always going to be controversial.
But once it's done - you can't suddenly behave like that player wasn't always supposed to have a developmental transition to the league.
This isn't pointed at you personally, but - It's pretty funny how attitudes have shifted since drafting the kid.
Seems like we had around 30-40% of the fan base opposed to the pick - another 30% with a wait and see attitude - and the remainder fired up for the freak show athlete upside.
Now you're lucky to find 10% of the fan base with any inkling of patience for a 22 year old kid with a bright future
I know instant gratification is the order of the day, but it's pretty laughable to me.
I still think the kid will pan out to be really good. I really do.
I think we'll see a nice step from him this year, and the better the back seven become in coverage over this year and the next, so will his disruption.
I don't feel right about lambasting a rookie for not getting home enough when your defense plays a lot of zone that basically surrenders the middle of the field underneath due to a combo of scheme + bad play from ILB and SS in coverage duty.
Ain't that the truth. We just went through this with Lawrence last year too.
(09-08-2023, 09:09 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (09-08-2023, 08:46 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Depends. We also have a lot of "in between the stats" guru's around here that championed Josh Allen like a mofo last year when some of us wanted him traded by the deadline. There's more to rushing the QB apparently outside of just "sacks". So I am told.
Yeah you have to rely on your eyes over the stat sheet, but getting home and other play ending stats do matter for pass rushers (i.e. sacks, TFLs, PD's etc). You have to get home occasionally. That was the defense on Harvey here many years ago. He never showed up on the stat sheet, but we were told he was getting lots of pressures and getting close.
And yes Hutch has the advantage in the stat sheet thus far, but you have to use your eyes on how he's getting what he does. It's the same way he was getting it in college. Nothing has changed. He's not a "beat you with speed and bend" guy. He's not a "beat you with power" guy. He's a "beat you with relentlessness and scheme" guy. Travon hasn't been really any of those 3 consistently yet, but I think he could still potentially be all 3. I don't think Hutch will ever be the first 2. I'd add, if you're ever going to be a defender that "takes over the game" you need to be 1 of the first 2.
Year 1 to 2 is where'd I'd expect to see the biggest jump from Travon. I'll start getting concerned 4 or 5 weeks in and nothing has changed for him, but for now I'm expecting production out of him pretty early in the season.
This is my stance on him in year two as well. If he's being stonewalled at the point of attack off the edge I would think they need to consider moving him inside to where he's more effective potentially at some point this year.
I said in another thread yesterday that I think his ceiling is a blend of Mario Williams and John Abraham. This is due to his sheer strength, size and tenacity. There's going to be games where he might not register a single stat and then there's going to be WEEKS where he just becomes a force of nature and he cannot be stopped.
I think his floor is a poor man's Ryan Kerrigan/Brian Orakpo/Cameron Wake type player if they continue the OLB route. He won't get those 10+ sack seasons consistently from that position but he'll have probably two to three big games per year getting after the QB and then being a handful in the run game.
I still wish we had taken Sauce.
(09-07-2023, 11:25 PM)jagboss Wrote: [ -> ]Think Baalke chose the wrong pass rusher
This. A lot of people were screaming when Baalke passed on Hutchison. And so far, they have proven right. Baalke wanted to show he was the smartest guy in the room so he took someone who had potential, rather than a proven asset.
I watched the Lions/Chiefs game last night as Hutchison was totally disruptive to Mahomes, and kept thinking "we should have had that guy."
(09-08-2023, 10:02 AM)Sibelius Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2023, 11:25 PM)jagboss Wrote: [ -> ]Think Baalke chose the wrong pass rusher
This. A lot of people were screaming when Baalke passed on Hutchison. And so far, they have proven right. Baalke wanted to show he was the smartest guy in the room so he took someone who had potential, rather than a proven asset.
I watched the Lions/Chiefs game last night as Hutchison was totally disruptive to Mahomes, and kept thinking "we should have had that guy."
You actually typed the word but don't seem to understand its meaning.
I think what we see this Sunday will resolve a lot these arguments.
I'm still not sold on Hutch. I don't know why people are fawning over him. He's not Bosa.
I didn't want Hutch or Walker, but we knew when we drafted him that he was going to be a project. Anyone trying to compare Walker to Hutch now doesn't quite understand what that means. Walker could very well surpass Hutch. I don't think it would be that hard to do based on Hutch's skillset.
The crazy thing is Hutch had very high potential and was an insane athlete as well. With that said Walker's potential is through the roof. Hopefully he starts to put it together. I think he will at least double his sack total from last year. I say he gets at least 7 sacks but he also will make a lot of game changing plays even if it's not a sack
(09-08-2023, 10:16 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]The crazy thing is Hutch had very high potential and was an insane athlete as well. With that said Walker's potential is through the roof. Hopefully he starts to put it together. I think he will at least double his sack total from last year. I say he gets at least 7 sacks but he also will make a lot of game changing plays even if it's not a sack
I disagree. I think everyone knew that Hutch's ceiling was 10-12 sacks a year. I don't remember anyone thinking that he was going to be putting up DPOY numbers.
(09-08-2023, 10:15 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I think what we see this Sunday will resolve a lot these arguments.
It feel like it won't. Although I hope it does back a few overreacting fans away from the ledge.
Neither player is a finished product.
I remember I used to have a copy/paste list saved on my old laptop for threads like this.
It was a list of six or seven (modern) productive pass rushers who didn't begin to accumulate sacks of any note until their third year in the NFL.
Unfortunately - the second season from 2022 overall pick one and pick two isn't going to tell the whole story.
Much less week one.
McManus said on 1010 that Hutchinson moved inside vs the Chiefs, and thinks Walker should too.
Same thing we’ve all been saying.
Last night Hutch had 3 tackles and 1 asst and 0 sacks.
(09-08-2023, 11:21 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]McManus said on 1010 that Hutchinson moved inside vs the Chiefs, and thinks Walker should too.
Same thing we’ve all been saying.
Last night Hutch had 3 tackles and 1 asst and 0 sacks.
Hutch did it in some passing situations and Walker did it last year in some passing situations
(09-08-2023, 11:21 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]McManus said on 1010 that Hutchinson moved inside vs the Chiefs, and thinks Walker should too.
Same thing we’ve all been saying.
Last night Hutch had 3 tackles and 1 asst and 0 sacks.
If inside means interior defensive line, Hutch did not move inside. He had at least 1 stunt that took him up the middle perhaps a few others, but my eyes were on him for most of the game and that description by McManus if you are quoting him correctly doesn't match what I saw.