Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:While Parnell has done a stand up job so far, I'm not ready to say he can deal with JJ one-on-one. We'll probably have to shift extra help to his side meaning Joekel will have to deal with Clowney one-on-one. Are we ready for that?

We'd be lucky if he stuck to Parnell's side. The guy moves all over the line and finds the weakest link. He'll definitely pick Joeckel's side if he remembers anything from last year.

Quote:The problem is Joeckel's ceiling is lower than the guy we traded away. Therefore making the GM's move a bad one. That is what homers are going to refuse to admit until the bitter end.

I was not a fan of that trade. More so because I didn't think we got enough for Monroe. I think most fans, knowing what we know now, would take Monroe and a different pick in the first. I know that draft was weak and hindsight is 20/20, but I'll never be convinced we got good value on the trade for Monroe. Caldwell has done much better than Gene in the draft (which isn't saying much since a monkey randomly picking had a very good chance of outdrafting Gene), but like all GM's he makes mistakes. Monroe trade was a mistake. Letting Daryl Smith go was a mistake. So far the Julius signing isn't looking good. And Beadles has also been extremely disappointing. He has not done very well so far in the first or second round. Cyprien and Lee are far from what we would have hoped at this point. Can't grade Fowler fairly, but Joeckel has been a huge disappointment. Bortles is much improved and I'm very optimistic about his future, but preseason and regular season are two different things. Overall I like what Caldwell has done, but there's nothing wrong with criticism.

Ask yourself this.  Would you rather have Monroe or the Joke?  I admit neither is a good choice but the Joke can't be trusted.

Quote:I was not a fan of that trade. More so because I didn't think we got enough for Monroe. I think most fans, knowing what we know now, would take Monroe and a different pick in the first. I know that draft was weak and hindsight is 20/20, but I'll never be convinced we got good value on the trade for Monroe. Caldwell has done much better than Gene in the draft (which isn't saying much since a monkey randomly picking had a very good chance of outdrafting Gene), but like all GM's he makes mistakes. Monroe trade was a mistake. Letting Daryl Smith go was a mistake. So far the Julius signing isn't looking good. And Beadles has also been extremely disappointing. He has not done very well so far in the first or second round. Cyprien and Lee are far from what we would have hoped at this point. Can't grade Fowler fairly, but Joeckel has been a huge disappointment. Bortles is much improved and I'm very optimistic about his future, but preseason and regular season are two different things. Overall I like what Caldwell has done, but there's nothing wrong with criticism.

I wasn't a big fan of the trade either. I think it is disingenuous for some to say that people thought Monroe was awful. I remember the general consensus was that  he was our best lineman at the time. 

 

I wasn't a big fan of the Joekel pick in the first place. The only way I could get on board was when they made the claim that RT was as important as LT and they wanted to draft him to be a RT.

 

Either way, it's still too premature to claim Caldwell made a good or bad decision at this point.

Most all of us realized that Monroe was a darn good LT, and many of us were nervous about the trade but hopeful knowing we had Joekel who was projected as the best player in the draft. The only dig on Monroe was that he was selected in the top 10 and wasn't making pro bowls.

Quote:Most all of us realized that Monroe was a darn good LT, and many of us were nervous about the trade but hopeful knowing we had Joekel who was projected as the best player in the draft. The only dig on Monroe was that he was selected in the top 10 and wasn't making pro bowls.

That's certainly a bit of revisionist history right there. 

 

Monroe was never recognized as a "darn good LT" by the majority on this board until after he was traded.  Prior to that, they were looking for his replacement as well.  If you think the only dig on Monroe was that he wasn't making pro bowls, you really must have been MIA during his tenure.

Will a mod please remove the comparison of a human to garbage from this thread title. It's just tacky. Discuss his skills all you want. Thank you.

Quote:I was not a fan of that trade. More so because I didn't think we got enough for Monroe. I think most fans, knowing what we know now, would take Monroe and a different pick in the first. I know that draft was weak and hindsight is 20/20, but I'll never be convinced we got good value on the trade for Monroe. Caldwell has done much better than Gene in the draft (which isn't saying much since a monkey randomly picking had a very good chance of outdrafting Gene), but like all GM's he makes mistakes. Monroe trade was a mistake. Letting Daryl Smith go was a mistake. So far the Julius signing isn't looking good. And Beadles has also been extremely disappointing. He has not done very well so far in the first or second round. Cyprien and Lee are far from what we would have hoped at this point. Can't grade Fowler fairly, but Joeckel has been a huge disappointment. Bortles is much improved and I'm very optimistic about his future, but preseason and regular season are two different things. Overall I like what Caldwell has done, but there's nothing wrong with criticism.

We're already deeming the Thomas signing as a bad one?  Seriously?  Knee jerk react much?  How about we pump the brakes on that one and see what the team has before determining it's a bad deal...unless you're one of those who tends to suffer from premature evaluations.

 

If only GMs could operate in the world of hindsight, every move would be a brilliant one.  If only we knew then what we do now, we might have considered drafting Tom Brady.  It was a stupid move not to draft Tom Brady. 

 

Nobody is accusing Caldwell of being perfect, but the fact that he got value for a player who was in the final year of his contract and was going to hit free agency and provide no value to the team made that a smart move.  Especially when you take into consideration the fact that they had drafted the guy who was expected to step in as his replacement.  The consensus on the board at the time was apprehension over the move because of the timing and the lack of experience Monroe was being replaced with, but it wasn't as broadly panned as some here would like to imply until AFTER Joeckel got hurt.  Then it was suddenly a terrible deal that never should have happened. 

 

Nobody is arguing that letting Daryl Smith walk in free agency was a mistake.  I don't think you'd get any objection from Caldwell on criticizing that move either.  But, if Gus had felt he was a good fit for the scheme he wanted to run, that never would have been allowed to happen.  They both erred on that one.  It happens.

 

The Beadles being extremely disappointing thing ignores the fact that he played most of last season injured on a line that was struggling at 4 of 5 positions.  How much of that was his fault, and how much of that was just the bad luck of getting hurt while playing on a unit that was one of the worst in the league?  Should he have been better?  Sure.  But, for an offensive lineman, playing with a calf injury for pretty much the entire season didn't help his stake much, did it?  We'll see where he lands this year since he's healthy, and the line is upgraded. 

 

That line as a whole struggled last year because they had no coaching to speak of with Yarno taking leave to deal with his cancer, and his assistant line coach pretty much having no clue how to develop the crew.  I think that was as big a contributor to their struggles as anything, and we're seeing how things can improve with a good coach at the helm to develop the talent.  We'll see how things progress this year now that Marrone is in charge.

 

Cyprien and Lee have been hurt.  Is that the GMs fault? 

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism if it's properly directed.  Caldwell has made some mistakes, but there have been moves made that remain a question mark for a variety of reasons that are beyond the control of any GM.  To blame him for injuries seems a bit misguided.  Things can happen in the league that are out of his hands once the guys are on the field.

Quote:That's certainly a bit of revisionist history right there. 

 

Monroe was never recognized as a "darn good LT" by the majority on this board until after he was traded.  Prior to that, they were looking for his replacement as well.  If you think the only dig on Monroe was that he wasn't making pro bowls, you really must have been MIA during his tenure.

 

Go back and check out some threads. Monroe was considered the best player on the Jags offense after the 2012 season by much of the board. I admit that's like dividing by zero, but he really was pretty good that year. He started slowly but played up to his draft position in 2012.

Quote:Go back and check out some threads. Monroe was considered the best player on the Jags offense after the 2012 season by much of the board. I admit that's like dividing by zero, but he really was pretty good that year. He started slowly but played up to his draft position in 2012.

Yeah, I think you're overselling what being the best player on the offense actually meant after the 2012 season.  That's like saying he was the tallest midget. 

.

 

Quote:Nobody is accusing Caldwell of being perfect, but the fact that he got value for a player who was in the final year of his contract and was going to hit free agency and provide no value to the team made that a smart move.  Especially when you take into consideration the fact that they had drafted the guy who was expected to step in as his replacement.  The consensus on the board at the time was apprehension over the move because of the timing and the lack of experience Monroe was being replaced with, but it wasn't as broadly panned as some here would like to imply until AFTER Joeckel got hurt.  Then it was suddenly a terrible deal that never should have happened. 

 

Well to be fair a lot of people didn't have time to post between the time Monroe was traded and the time Joeckel got hurt.


 

I disagreed with the decision to trade him. Even earlier I thought we should have traded the pick rather than drafting Joeckel because we had Monroe. And before you go on a rant about how hard it is to trade a pick, there have been plenty of trades of 1st round picks, including THE VERY NEXT PICK. The Jags might have offered pick #2 for what the Dolphins gave up for pick #3. With the new rookie pay scale the $$$ savings of pick #3 over pick #2 is negligible, and the Dolphins should have been concerned that the Jags would take their guy instead of Joeckel.


Monroe reportedly desired a new contract with the Jags even after Joeckel was drafted. Even if he later changed his mind money talks, and most players would rather stay with the same team. Staying means he wouldn't have to sell his house and move, and he'd get to stay in a town with great beaches, golf and fishing, and no state income tax. Given the same money he'd get elsewhere, I doubt he'd prefer leaving. 


 

Quote:That line as a whole struggled last year because they had no coaching to speak of with Yarno taking leave to deal with his cancer, and his assistant line coach pretty much having no clue how to develop the crew.  I think that was as big a contributor to their struggles as anything, and we're seeing how things can improve with a good coach at the helm to develop the talent.  We'll see how things progress this year now that Marrone is in charge.

 

My teal colored glasses agree with this. And Parnell appears to be a big upgrade.


 

Quote: 

Cyprien and Lee have been hurt.  Is that the GMs fault? 

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism if it's properly directed.  Caldwell has made some mistakes, but there have been moves made that remain a question mark for a variety of reasons that are beyond the control of any GM.  To blame him for injuries seems a bit misguided.  Things can happen in the league that are out of his hands once the guys are on the field.

 

Cyprien has been mediocre when healthy. Lee may be another story.

Quote:Yeah, I think you're overselling what being the best player on the offense actually meant after the 2012 season.  That's like saying he was the tallest midget. 

 

Let me put it another way. The consensus before the 2013 draft was that the Jags had 10 holes on offense. LT wasn't one of them.

Ha-ha, FBT is funny! He was the loudest voice on paving the concrete after the Monroe trade, ya.

Quote:Ha-ha, FBT is funny! He was the loudest voice on paving the concrete after the Monroe trade, ya.

 

I'm not even sure what that means.  Perhaps someone could translate this into English?

 

My position has never changed on the trade.  Monroe was in a contract year, and had given every indication he was going to test free agency.  That offered zero value to the Jaguars if that's where he ended up.  From a strictly business perspective, the deal made sense.  The Jaguars got Aaron Colvin and Chris Smith in exchange.  Colvin is one of your starting CBs this year.  I'd say they got the best possible deal they could for Monroe.

 

Would Monroe have continued his ascent here in Jacksonville had they extended him?  Probably.  But, once the season started, there was no discussion about a conract extension, and the team had drafted their future LT.  The writing was on the wall.  Monroe had been pretty clear about his lack of interest in signing a RT contract to stay here.  That was where he most likely would have ended up had he remained with the Jaguars.

Monroe was not a player this board and the fans considered a problem. He was one of the only players that were young and solid. He was NOT a problem for us and we were NOT looking for his replacement actively.


Anything else is "revisionist history"

Quote:I'm not even sure what that means.  Perhaps someone could translate this into English?

 

My position has never changed on the trade.  Monroe was in a contract year, and had given every indication he was going to test free agency.  That offered zero value to the Jaguars if that's where he ended up.  Instead, the Jaguars got Aaron Colvin and Chris Smith in exchange.  Colvin is one of your starting CBs this year.  I'd say they got the best possible deal they could for Monroe.

 

Listing the players we got with the draft picks is disingenuous. The Jags could have gotten someone like OBJ had they traded the Joeckel pick for 2014 picks, and we'd still have a better LT.

Quote:I'm not even sure what that means.  Perhaps someone could translate this into English?

 

My position has never changed on the trade.  Monroe was in a contract year, and had given every indication he was going to test free agency.  That offered zero value to the Jaguars if that's where he ended up.  Instead, the Jaguars got Aaron Colvin and Chris Smith in exchange.  Colvin is one of your starting CBs this year.  I'd say they got the best possible deal they could for Monroe.

Yeah we get it, you only hear the voices in your head. And like Malabar said, you can't use the picks as a comparison as they were likely targets that we were drafting anyways.

Quote:Monroe was not a player this board and the fans considered a problem. He was one of the only players that were young and solid. He was NOT a problem for us and we were NOT looking for his replacement actively.


Anything else is "revisionist history"

 

You're right.  Everyone here loved Monroe.  Not sure why I was thinking otherwise. 

Quote:Yeah we get it, you only hear the voices in your head. And like Malabar said, you can't use the picks as a comparison as they were likely targets that we were drafting anyways.

That's easy to say, but impossible to actually prove.

 

I do think it's interesting how, if all of you were so enamored with Monroe when he was traded, what you thought of him in the first few years of his career?  You know, that period where he wasn't the beloved and dominant LT he evidently was when he was traded. 

 

People wanted him replaced almost from the start.  However, he was given time to develop, and he started to hit his stride toward the end of his third year.  That was after playing at least 15 games each year.  Nobody is willing to give Joeckel anything close to the same level of patience in allowing him to develop despite the fact that he hasn't started nearly as many games as Monroe had by this point in his career.  So, if Monroe sucked for the first few years in the eyes of the armchair GMs on this board, but eventually developed into a decent upper third of the league starting LT, who is to say Joeckel can't do the same thing with the same amount of playing time? 

 

I'm sure all you experts can pass along this mass amount of wisdom you have about how Joeckel won't develop vs. Monroe since you clearly saw the potential in Eugene and weren't calling for his head, right?

joeckel sucks