(12-21-2021, 09:41 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 09:40 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]There is no reason to bench Trevor. Stop with all that nonsense.
Might as well bench the whole team. He's not doing any worse than anyone else.
(12-20-2021, 08:07 PM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ](12-20-2021, 05:52 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ][garbage links]
Hey you know what.... thanks for your agenda.
Do you know what they did to Minshew? Yeah they benched him when he had the hot hand. This franchise is an issue. I am not worried about Lawrence.
You don't follow this franchise. We know what crap QBs look like around here. So far it isn't Lawrence.
(12-20-2021, 08:51 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Man, the excuse making. He's not a superstar. He's a bust. It happens.
Riddle me this: If he's not a bust and it's everyone else's fault then how's he get any better? You can only roll over about 20% of a starting lineup in year, so that's at least three years until he's got the talent that you can't blame anymore. If he were great then he would be shooting the lights out and the team still losing. But he's not. He can't read defenses. He can't make adjustments. He checks down poorly. His footwork is lame. Elevating the QB coach who was supposed to be teaching him game is not the answer. The shot caller should not be the guy who failed to improve TL one iota this year.
Anyways, I'm here cheering for one player and TL's success or failure won't affect his personal success, which is going fine. I would like to see a better QB, though, so that he could enjoy some team success.
(12-21-2021, 02:25 AM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]The worst thing that ever happened to TL was UM getting shot and Schott getting promoted. The "it's all the coach's fault" excuse has been used and the same coach that has failed to do anything with TL is now the boss of the whole offense. TL is guaranteed to regress. This forum will hate him worse that UM by the off-season.
For posterity's sake, I'll post my recommendation here as it was called out to be outrageously agressive and in two months will be called outrageously conservative:
* Bench TL, play CJ to have an at least minimally NFL capable QB leading the squad. And get TL a new QB coach.
Instead, we're promoting his failed QB coach, continuing to play him as he deteriorates and will lose the entire investment in one year. My guy is playing well so all is good, though. He'll end up with trade to a real team.
(12-21-2021, 05:45 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]The big problem is it’s trending in the wrong direction. The high point was the game against the Bengals. After that it went worse by the week and that’s a fact.
In my view it’s a lot of things. Sharing reps in training camp was bad. He started the year firing long a lot of times. After that he flipped and played scared. At the moment he doesn’t know what to do. He looks lost because nobody is making a play for him or getting open. And it spreads to his mechanics and everything else. It is purely mental in my view.
Hit the reset button, start from scratch with new weapons and a new offense and get reps reps reps and let’s see. My favourite moment of the season was the opening drive againsy the Broncos.
(12-21-2021, 08:54 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ](12-20-2021, 09:03 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Jags need to draft or sign a Plan B for next year.I actually don't mind a Plan B. Technically, they had one. Between Baalke and Meyer they managed to [BLEEP] that up.
As I said before, not having chemistry or not knowing the play book is one thing.
On a fairly common basis missing easy throws is another thing. He makes too many easy throws look hard. The big question is, Why? It's not all the receivers or coaches fault. Yes the Receivers drop passes but they also get open some times and Lawrence flat out misses them. He also makes receivers reach behind or above the receivers too much. Way too inconsistent. At this stage in the season we should be able to rely on out QB to make a 10 yard or less throw almost every time. It's a 50/50 shot now.
Time to stop blaming everybody and everything including the man on the moon why Lawrence is struggling. He is flat out inaccurate. The numbers prove that and the eyeball test proves that. I saw numerous Receivers get open vs Houston and either Lawrence did not see them or flat out missed them.
Minshew should have started this year. Lawrence should have sat. Best case scenario. Minshew builds immense trade value. Worst case scenario. Minshew stinks it up for a few weeks and Lawrence starts later.
The issue is that, this QB class coming up is pretty weak. Even the 'top" QBs have major question marks coming out of college. I highly doubt this team is investing any high draft pick on a "Plan B" as they need to have options A, B and C next year on offense to support Lawrence.
The next staff is going to have to be fully engaged in fixing, masking and elevating Lawrence's strengths and weaknesses next year for sure. They will need to go back and look at his last two years at Clemson.
I think next summer the approach during training camp needs to be implementing and executing 65% of what he did at Clemson so they can use that for the majority of the preseason and roughly 4 - 6 weeks into the regular season.
Then, you're going to need to start adding more pro style schemes to get him over the plateau as defenses start to catch on. We saw this in Buffalo with Josh Allen. It took Josh until year three to really elevate himself in the passing game but his ability to run was more commonly at display his first two years.
This is something they limited severely this year as a staff with Lawrence. He likes to run. He's an athlete and he likes being on the move. Something fairly common now with most of today's top QBs. Had they just let this kid do some more of those things earlier on like they did in the Bengals, Dolphins and Falcons game it may have been more productive.
When you factor in Robinson being mismanaged it also showed a clear lack of understanding from this coaching staff. This was a perfect pairing on paper. A QB who can run. A dynamic RB that has some wiggle and versatility. They handcuffed both of them. Told them to go out there and make it happen with no speed on the outside to throw it around to.
Frustrating. The NFL is all about strengths and match up's. The tacks don't hide their identity. You know what you're getting when you play them and they line up every Sunday and say "Yeah. You can see our hand. What the [BLEEP] are you going to do about it though?". The Patriots are the same way. The Chargers. The Chiefs. The Packers.
We need a staff like that here. This is who we are, this is what we do, and, we're going to do it until you stop it. If you stop it? Great. We'll make adjustments and get you back peddaling on your tippy toes. That's how they played in 2017 with Coughlin in the building.
Defense got after it. Fournette ran it heavily. Bortles wasn't asked to drop back and throw it 40 times a game too much that year to win it. Sometimes keeping it simple leads to success.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
(12-21-2021, 10:49 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 05:45 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]The big problem is it’s trending in the wrong direction. The high point was the game against the Bengals. After that it went worse by the week and that’s a fact.
In my view it’s a lot of things. Sharing reps in training camp was bad. He started the year firing long a lot of times. After that he flipped and played scared. At the moment he doesn’t know what to do. He looks lost because nobody is making a play for him or getting open. And it spreads to his mechanics and everything else. It is purely mental in my view.
Hit the reset button, start from scratch with new weapons and a new offense and get reps reps reps and let’s see. My favourite moment of the season was the opening drive againsy the Broncos.
....might that be a sign that defensive coaches finally had relevant amounts of film on TLaw and our (alleged) offense? I think team morale/respect for the head coach went a long way into submarining the progress we all (Trevor included) expected to see this season.
Not saying TLaw hasn't looked challenged out there, but I also wonder how capable our staff has been to adapt to both injury and finding new ways to mislead defenses. We've appeared to be the same scheme from week one to present. No new wrinkles, no identity established, just swinging in the dark in hope that something works.
(12-21-2021, 12:13 PM)Doc Holliday904 Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 10:49 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]....might that be a sign that defensive coaches finally had relevant amounts of film on TLaw and our (alleged) offense? I think team morale/respect for the head coach went a long way into submarining the progress we all (Trevor included) expected to see this season.
Not saying TLaw hasn't looked challenged out there, but I also wonder how capable our staff has been to adapt to both injury and finding new ways to mislead defenses. We've appeared to be the same scheme from week one to present. No new wrinkles, no identity established, just swinging in the dark in hope that something works.
Can't stress enough how important that is I mean i kinda figured after the Seattle game that what we had seen so far see this year is as good as its gonna get. All of our upcoming opponents know this offense has no playmakers. I'll hold judgement on Tlaw until he has some receivers and competent coaches
(12-21-2021, 09:31 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 09:11 AM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]This.He won't even admit who the player is because he knows he will get crushed for it.
Gotta love the "forward thinking" fans (cough, two of the idiots in this thread) who have already declared him a bust. I guess bad rookie years aren't "allowed" anymore. At least one of these trolls admitted they are here for a player, not a team, so his opinion can go back up his posterior where it belongs.
Soft.
(12-21-2021, 07:47 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Hahahaha(12-21-2021, 09:31 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]He won't even admit who the player is because he knows he will get crushed for it.
Soft.
Crush me? I think about your moron opinions less than I think about the mystery of gravity. What I am worried about is what you vindictive bedwetters would do on social media to a player as you cackle over keyboards surrounded by Pepsi cans and pizza boxes.
Also, I am correct. TL needs better coaching. And a rest. He's well on his way to losing all chance at success. Pull him back and let him reset.
(12-21-2021, 07:47 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 09:31 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]He won't even admit who the player is because he knows he will get crushed for it.
Soft.
Crush me? I think about your moron opinions less than I think about the mystery of gravity. What I am worried about is what you vindictive bedwetters would do on social media to a player as you cackle over keyboards surrounded by Pepsi cans and pizza boxes.
Also, I am correct. TL needs better coaching. And a rest. He's well on his way to losing all chance at success. Pull him back and let him reset.
(12-21-2021, 09:57 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Just to play Devils advocate:
What if they put in Beathard and he throws for a couple of TD's a game and worse wins the remaining games. We lose drat stock and then have to wonder if Lawrence is a bigger issue then we thought.
It's a no win situation. Lawrence is stinking it up enough to we are almost guaranteed to lose the remaining games. Give him more experience and lets hope we can find a QB guru to help him in the off season. Lawrence footwork has fallen apart that is leading to his accuracy struggles. He rightfully so has lost trust with the line and he is also rushing some throws.
Fix the line, Find an offensive coach that can cater to Lawrence, Lots of hard work in the off season, find some receivers, then hope for the best.
(12-20-2021, 01:52 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ](12-20-2021, 01:24 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]It's hard to explain his inaccuracy on a lot of his throws. Easy check down throws at that. Cannot judge his deep ball ability at all as we don't /cannot go downfield often enough. I wonder is something hampering his ability. Minor injury or something?
It's mechanics mostly. Throws off the back foot, throwing around defenders in his face, hurried throws are all contributing to the accuracy concerns. At the same time, he's hitting guys in the hands and they aren't catching the easy ones. The issue is how much of those problems are a Trevor problem vs being a supporting cast problem. Brady looked terrible last night after he lost most of his skill players and he's one of the best ever. Clearly TLaw doesn't have anything like that stacked roster around him, so it seems likely that his struggles aren't exclusively his fault.
(12-21-2021, 11:00 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ](12-21-2021, 08:54 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I actually don't mind a Plan B. Technically, they had one. Between Baalke and Meyer they managed to [BLEEP] that up.
Minshew should have started this year. Lawrence should have sat. Best case scenario. Minshew builds immense trade value. Worst case scenario. Minshew stinks it up for a few weeks and Lawrence starts later.
The issue is that, this QB class coming up is pretty weak. Even the 'top" QBs have major question marks coming out of college. I highly doubt this team is investing any high draft pick on a "Plan B" as they need to have options A, B and C next year on offense to support Lawrence.
The next staff is going to have to be fully engaged in fixing, masking and elevating Lawrence's strengths and weaknesses next year for sure. They will need to go back and look at his last two years at Clemson.
I think next summer the approach during training camp needs to be implementing and executing 65% of what he did at Clemson so they can use that for the majority of the preseason and roughly 4 - 6 weeks into the regular season.
Then, you're going to need to start adding more pro style schemes to get him over the plateau as defenses start to catch on. We saw this in Buffalo with Josh Allen. It took Josh until year three to really elevate himself in the passing game but his ability to run was more commonly at display his first two years.
This is something they limited severely this year as a staff with Lawrence. He likes to run. He's an athlete and he likes being on the move. Something fairly common now with most of today's top QBs. Had they just let this kid do some more of those things earlier on like they did in the Bengals, Dolphins and Falcons game it may have been more productive.
When you factor in Robinson being mismanaged it also showed a clear lack of understanding from this coaching staff. This was a perfect pairing on paper. A QB who can run. A dynamic RB that has some wiggle and versatility. They handcuffed both of them. Told them to go out there and make it happen with no speed on the outside to throw it around to.
Frustrating. The NFL is all about strengths and match up's. The tacks don't hide their identity. You know what you're getting when you play them and they line up every Sunday and say "Yeah. You can see our hand. What the [BLEEP] are you going to do about it though?". The Patriots are the same way. The Chargers. The Chiefs. The Packers.
We need a staff like that here. This is who we are, this is what we do, and, we're going to do it until you stop it. If you stop it? Great. We'll make adjustments and get you back peddaling on your tippy toes. That's how they played in 2017 with Coughlin in the building.
Defense got after it. Fournette ran it heavily. Bortles wasn't asked to drop back and throw it 40 times a game too much that year to win it. Sometimes keeping it simple leads to success.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
....am I the only one who remembers the stinkaroo Minshew laid this preseason? I don't know if that was poor playcalling to make one look better than the other, or Minshew not taking to the new offense, or Meyer laying into him like he would a kicker, but he did absolutely nothing to suggest that he was more worthy of the backup spot than CJB.
I loved Minshew for his swagger, but his success was short-lived. He was just as jittery behind this line as TLaw is getting, and wasn't nearly as capable of avoiding rush or getting the ball downfield.
There's no chance that a new coach was going to come in and sit his R1 P1 selection in favor of any other QB on the roster, no matter who we hired as coach.
Plan B isn't going to happen until it's determined without a doubt that our Plan A isn't going to work. That's just the way it is.
(12-20-2021, 08:51 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Man, the excuse making. He's not a superstar. He's a bust. It happens.
Riddle me this: If he's not a bust and it's everyone else's fault then how's he get any better? You can only roll over about 20% of a starting lineup in year, so that's at least three years until he's got the talent that you can't blame anymore. If he were great then he would be shooting the lights out and the team still losing. But he's not. He can't read defenses. He can't make adjustments. He checks down poorly. His footwork is lame. Elevating the QB coach who was supposed to be teaching him game is not the answer. The shot caller should not be the guy who failed to improve TL one iota this year.
Anyways, I'm here cheering for one player and TL's success or failure won't affect his personal success, which is going fine. I would like to see a better QB, though, so that he could enjoy some team success.
(12-22-2021, 04:53 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](12-20-2021, 08:51 PM)OzJohnnie Wrote: [ -> ]Man, the excuse making. He's not a superstar. He's a bust. It happens.
Riddle me this: If he's not a bust and it's everyone else's fault then how's he get any better? You can only roll over about 20% of a starting lineup in year, so that's at least three years until he's got the talent that you can't blame anymore. If he were great then he would be shooting the lights out and the team still losing. But he's not. He can't read defenses. He can't make adjustments. He checks down poorly. His footwork is lame. Elevating the QB coach who was supposed to be teaching him game is not the answer. The shot caller should not be the guy who failed to improve TL one iota this year.
Anyways, I'm here cheering for one player and TL's success or failure won't affect his personal success, which is going fine. I would like to see a better QB, though, so that he could enjoy some team success.
(Emphasis added)
I have largely avoided this thread, because no matter the circumstances, the impatience never changes. It's exhausting, especially given the abundance of NFL history from which to draw.
Franchise QBs are often not microwaveable products. They need adequate time, adequate coaching, and adequate surrounding talent.
Think about some of the best QBs in the league now and in recent years...Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees.
These guys all rode the bench for most of their rookie years because better coaches than UM felt these guys weren't ready to play initially. When Brees finally got the chance to play, it took him a while to be competent. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...eeDr00.htm
Buffalo's Josh Allen had the reputation of being inaccurate coming out of Wyoming. His first two seasons, he didn't break a 60% completion rate. But by his third year, Buffalo was confident they were right in their evaluations and they had a franchise signal caller.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...tm#passing
So the question is, if none of these guys were any good their rookie years, how did THEY get better?
For starters, they weren't dismissed as busts after their rookie seasons for the most part. They were given adequate time to develop.
Besides time, coaching plays a huge role in the development of QBs.
Troy Aikman struggled his first two years in the league under offensive coordinator Mike Shula. But in year three, the coaboys fired Shula and hired Norv Turner to be Dallas' offensive coordinator. The Dallas offense began to flourish, and wound up going to the playoffs in his first year (Aikman's 3rd year) as OC, and won the Super Bowl the next season.
Steve Yong was not a great QB when he first came into the NFL. Even though he had pro experience from his time in the USFL, he did not achieve success in the NFL when he was with Tampa. Tampa gave up on him after a couple of seasons and traded him to the 49ers, coached by Bill Walsh, who had Mike Holmgren on his staff. Eventually, Young got his chance to play and he wound up winning several MVP awards, won a Super Bowl MVP, and wound up in the Hall of Fame.
Brett Favre did nothing much his first year under Jerry Glanville in Atlanta. Glanville did not run a very disciplined program. After his rookie season, Glanville traded Favre to the Packers, coached by Mike Holmgren-the same one on Bill Walsh's 49ers staff that coached Joe Montana and Steve Young. With Holmgren's guidance, Favre went on to have a Hall of Fame career.
Without the proper coaching to develop their talents, none of these guys would have had the careers they had.
Finally, QBs need adequate surrounding talent to succeed.
Aikman was drafted first overall in 1989 by a Dallas team that finished 3-13 in 1988. Aikman finished 0-11 his rookie year on a team that went 1-15. But in the aftermath of the Herschel Walker and Steve Walsh trades, Dallas added the likes of Emmitt Smith, Jay Novacek, Alvin Harper, Erik Williams, Larry Allen, got guys like Michael Irvin healthy, developed guys like Nate Newton and Mark Stepnoski, and added defensive stalwarts like Leonn Lett, Darren Woodson, Kevin Smith, Tony Tolbert, etc. and won three Super Bowls in four years.
To suggest surrounding talent does not play a role in QB success-as you do when you dismiss surrounding talent as an excuse-you essentially say there's no difference between Steve Young's mid 1980s Tampa Bay teams and his early 1990s 49ers teams featuring Jerry Rice, Brent Jones, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Ricky Watters, Harris Barton, Et al. That's a laughable proposition to anyone who has followed football for any length of time.
There is a reason teams spend millions on scouting instead of pocketing the money and randomly selecting fans out of the stands to run routes, block, etc. Talent matters.
In Allen's case, it took a couple of full seasons of experience, some good coaching, and adding in pieces around him lie Stephon Diggs and Knox.
It took Brees experience, good health, and getting to Sean Payton to develop into the HOF QB we saw with the Saints.
Think about the guys to whom TL was compared as a rookie QB prospect: Elway, Manning and Luck.
Elway only had six (6) seasons where he eclipsed 20 YDs in a season, most of which did not happen until Make Shanahan became his coach in 1994 and put Elway in a WCO (11 years into his career). His 3rd year was the first of those seasons, but even then he threw more INTs (23) than TDs (22) that year.
Peyton Manning threw 28 INTs his first year despite having a father who was an NFL QB, a Hall of Fame caliber RB in marshall Faulk, a Hall of Fame caliber WR in marvin Harrison, and a stud LT in Tarik Glenn all in their primes. How did HE improve?
Andrew Luck had success out of the box, but he had Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton as WRs amd a ,uch better OL than TL has now.
You dismiss a lack of experience, poor coaching, and a lack of surrounding talent as excuses, but history is replete with franchise signal callers who struggled early in their careers for those very reasons.
All you see is TL struggling and automatically assume he's a bust. You want him to perform like the guys listed above, but won't give him the time, coaching and surrounding talent they received.
Is TL guaranteed to be great? No. But he's not guaranteed to be a bust either.
Let things play out.
(12-22-2021, 01:07 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ](12-20-2021, 01:52 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]It's mechanics mostly. Throws off the back foot, throwing around defenders in his face, hurried throws are all contributing to the accuracy concerns. At the same time, he's hitting guys in the hands and they aren't catching the easy ones. The issue is how much of those problems are a Trevor problem vs being a supporting cast problem. Brady looked terrible last night after he lost most of his skill players and he's one of the best ever. Clearly TLaw doesn't have anything like that stacked roster around him, so it seems likely that his struggles aren't exclusively his fault.
Hmmm......sounds like the same type of things that sunk Leftwich. Bad mechanics and bad recievers.