Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(12-27-2021, 05:59 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]While he has gone through a rough patch, the way so many posters seem to be aggressively attacking the guy does not make sense to me. Clearly you are fans, or you would not be on this message board at this point in a miserable season, but why try to tear down our best prospect in years just because he has had a difficult rookie campaign during a dumpster fire overall situation? What is there possibly to be gained from that?

Well everybody knows it's all about his rookie year.

(12-27-2021, 05:59 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]While he has gone through a rough patch, the way so many posters seem to be aggressively attacking the guy does not make sense to me. Clearly you are fans, or you would not be on this message board at this point in a miserable season, but why try to tear down our best prospect in years just because he has had a difficult rookie campaign during a dumpster fire overall situation? What is there possibly to be gained from that?

Because in a year or so, if Trevor fails, they can point and say "see, I was right! I'm AhEaD oF tHe CuRvE". 

They lack patience to let this bear out.

It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

Don’t forget that Trevor has the most dropped passes if any QB in the league. FUN!

(12-27-2021, 05:59 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]While he has gone through a rough patch, the way so many posters seem to be aggressively attacking the guy does not make sense to me. Clearly you are fans, or you would not be on this message board at this point in a miserable season, but why try to tear down our best prospect in years just because he has had a difficult rookie campaign during a dumpster fire overall situation? What is there possibly to be gained from that?

I think for two reasons.

1. He was being touted as the next or latest and greatest QB prospect since Andrew Luck.

2. He's struggling at a historical level, both, franchise wise and position wise during an era geared towards making the position and passing game historically favorable.

Look, for me? There's plenty of blame to go around. I have been in Jacksonville my whole life. All 33 years of it. I remember the late 90s with Brunell and the whole Del Rio era.

I remember the press conference when Coughlin was fired and my Dad was on his lunch break and word for word, he looked at me and said "Son, Weaver will regret this day".

I never got caught up on the 4500, 40 TD QBs around the NFL because I grew up on Taylor, Jones-Drew, etc. This city always prided itself on being run first and hard nosed on offense and being stout against the run on defense. You would get some splash plays here and there on offense through the air.

This team has been dying for history to repeat itself since it died in 1999/2000. People want that 4 year run again with 2 trips to the title game and an actual SB win this time around.

I get it. I get it from both sides of the fence. Expectations were set high and a lot of folks can't deal with seeing this [BLEEP] unfolding anymore. I am in the middle.

I am realistic. Lawrence is historically bad because:

A. He wasn't ready
B. Meyer wasn't ready
C. Baalke wasn't ready

This team had a full year to prepare for this. Meyer knew what he wanted all along. He botched it. Baalke as well. They did little in free agency. This draft was lack luster. Campbell is panning out but the pick on Etienne felt desparate and the pick on Little seemed wasteful. Cisco is just now playing.

Just a lot of botched opportunities to put it mildly. Coaching wise though they should have incorporated more of what Lawrence did at Clemson. This offense never had an identity established and that's something you're supposed to figure out by the season opener.

Again, take the Bengals, Dolphins and Falcons games. That was your identity. That was what should have been your offensive philosophy and plan of attack since the opener in Houston.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

(12-27-2021, 06:33 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 05:59 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]While he has gone through a rough patch, the way so many posters seem to be aggressively attacking the guy does not make sense to me. Clearly you are fans, or you would not be on this message board at this point in a miserable season, but why try to tear down our best prospect in years just because he has had a difficult rookie campaign during a dumpster fire overall situation? What is there possibly to be gained from that?

I think for two reasons.

1. He was being touted as the next or latest and greatest QB prospect since Andrew Luck.

2. He's struggling at a historical level, both, franchise wise and position wise during an era geared towards making the position and passing game historically favorable.

Look, for me? There's plenty of blame to go around. I have been in Jacksonville my whole life. All 33 years of it. I remember the late 90s with Brunell and the whole Del Rio era.

I remember the press conference when Coughlin was fired and my Dad was on his lunch break and word for word, he looked at me and said "Son, Weaver will regret this day".

I never got caught up on the 4500, 40 TD QBs around the NFL because I grew up on Taylor, Jones-Drew, etc. This city always prided itself on being run first and hard nosed on offense and being stout against the run on defense. You would get some splash plays here and there on offense.

This team has been dying for history to repeat itself since it died in 1999/2000. People want that 4 year run again with 2 trips to the title game and an actual SB win this time around.

I get it. I get it from both sides of the fence. Expectations were set high and a lot of folks can't deal with seeing this [BLEEP] unfolding anymore. I am in the middle.

I am realistic. Lawrence is historically bad because:

A. He wasn't ready
B. Meyer wasn't ready
C. Baalke wasn't ready

This team had a full year to prepare for this. Meyer knew what he wanted all along. He botched it. Baalke as well. They did little in free agency. This draft was lack luster. Campbell is panning out but the pick on Etienne felt desparate and the pick on Little seemed wasteful. Cisco is just now playing.

Just a lot of botched opportunities to put it mildly. Coaching wise though they should have incorporated more of what Lawrence did at Clemson. This offense never had an identity established and that's something you're supposed to figure out by the season opener.

Again, take the Bengals, Dolphins and Falcons games. That was your identity. That was what should have been your offensive philosophy and plan of attack since the opener in Houston.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I don't believe option B and C above had any pertinence to readiness, but rather competence.

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

The red zone chances stat is extremely enlightening 

Of course, the usual suspects will ignore this post. No facts or context matter, just their tantrums of “you just like Trevor too much and he’s already a bust!”

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

Context??

Maybe you have some valid points that the Jags have done next to nothing to ensure success for this team's players via GM/HC hires... But good players still play well in bad situations, it literally happens every season. Great players play great, regardless of coaching. For every example you give here I can give you another of a player who did better with just as bad of a situation. The best example near to us I can give you is Minshew.

Poorly coached team with a bad GM, same Oline with less WR/TE talent in 2019 as a rookie. Somehow Misnhew went 6-6 and the 4 games he didn't start were all losses. He gets a raw deal here in 2020 (he was given 0 help) and gets traded late in 21 camp.  His 1st game as starter vs this same Jets team we just faced, and he threw 2 tds and 260+ on 25 attempts. Sure, he has a better situation now in Philly, but he didn't here and somehow he still performed well enough to win games with multiple rookie of the week awards. Btw, that is what a good QB is supposed to do to a bad team, complete 80% of his passes with multiple TDs in a blowout win... Amazing, remember Brady's 51 burger vs our Gus Bus squad? That's what it's supposed to look like vs bad teams. Not 280 yards on 39 attempts with 0 Tds, tbh TL should have thrown 2 picks with 1 being a pick 6. Disgusting #s vs the worst defense in football right now.

The truly pathetic thing is they did the same thing to Minshew in 2019/2020 as they are doing to Lawrence now. They went and got absolutely no one to help their young QBs. No WRs worth a damn, no TE(a young QB's best friend) until the Arnold trade, and no impactful OL help. Maybe Little is a stud and we land a good FA pickup this FA, but last free agency was THE year to load up on talent to help TL and we blew it. That, I will agree with you on. Who will want to come to JAX with the cap going up and more teams having space? No one.

(12-27-2021, 07:11 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

Context??

Maybe you have some valid points that the Jags have done next to nothing to ensure success for this team's players via GM/HC hires... But good players still play well in bad situations, it literally happens every season. Great players play great, regardless of coaching. For every example you give here I can give you another of a player who did better with just as bad of a situation. The best example near to us I can give you is Minshew.

Poorly coached team with a bad GM, same Oline with less WR/TE talent in 2019 as a rookie. Somehow Misnhew went 6-6 and the 4 games he didn't start were all losses. He gets a raw deal here in 2020 (he was given 0 help) and gets traded late in 21 camp.  His 1st game as starter vs this same Jets team we just faced, and he threw 2 tds and 260+ on 25 attempts. Sure, he has a better situation now in Philly, but he didn't here and somehow he still performed well enough to win games with multiple rookie of the week awards. Btw, that is what a good QB is supposed to do to a bad team, complete 80% of his passes with multiple TDs in a blowout win... Amazing, remember Brady's 51 burger vs our Gus Bus squad? That's what it's supposed to look like vs bad teams. Not 280 yards on 39 attempts with 0 Tds, tbh TL should have thrown 2 picks with 1 being a pick 6. Disgusting #s vs the worst defense in football right now.

The truly pathetic thing is they did the same thing to Minshew in 2019/2020 as they are doing to Lawrence now. They went and got absolutely no one to help their young QBs. No WRs worth a damn, no TE(a young QB's best friend) until the Arnold trade, and no impactful OL help. Maybe Little is a stud and we land a good FA pickup this FA, but last free agency was THE year to load up on talent to help TL and we blew it. That, I will agree with you on. Who will want to come to JAX with the cap going up and more teams having space? No one.

Tell that nine out of ten rookie QBs who struggle in their initial season(s). 

Yes good players improve their team, but it takes time. It’s been repeated ad nauseum, and not to be rude, but stop ignoring the simple basic fact that rookies do not usually step in and improve their team, regardless of their future career path. Some didn’t even get into the playoffs until their third or fourth year(s), when they finally had a strong enough roster to support them. You will find exceptions to every rule, but for the most part, QBs have exceptional growing pains. They usually come into depleted rosters more often then not.

You use the example of Minshew, but Minshew led us to exactly six wins his rookie year, and one his following year.

You say poorly coached, but Marrone took a Bortles led team to two plays away from the super bowl.

Minshew had a better supporting offensive cast as well. Conley, cole, chark, and fournette.

Yet he didn’t “elevate” this team to the playoffs, in neither year, nor to even a .500 record as a starter. Isn’t that what good players do?

(12-27-2021, 01:31 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/ihartitz/status/1475...01285?s=21

Now Lawrence can't even catch the football. This guy just can't do anything right lololololol

(12-27-2021, 05:59 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]While he has gone through a rough patch, the way so many posters seem to be aggressively attacking the guy does not make sense to me. Clearly you are fans, or you would not be on this message board at this point in a miserable season, but why try to tear down our best prospect in years just because he has had a difficult rookie campaign during a dumpster fire overall situation? What is there possibly to be gained from that?

Here's why I am and have been so critical of Lawrence. Last year I watched as much of Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Mac Jones as I could find. I paid closer attention to Fields and Wilson throughout most of the year until we locked in the #1 pick.. when that happened I watched every snap he played at Clemson multiple times. People on here tend to forget that I did not love Lawrence prior to us even being considered to get him. I wasn't really in love with any of the QBs coming out this year but it was pretty much a given we had to go that route. 

For me, this is what I found. 

Pros. 
Great size/speed and athleticism (mobility).
Very good arm strength
Good footwork (when the circumstances are right)
High football IQ
Extremely mature
Not afraid to get hit making a throw


Cons. 
Accuracy. With or without pressure he missed a ton of easy throws in college.
Happy feet in the pocket. Will escape the pocket with or without pressure (which would lead to even more inaccuracy)
Bad decision maker. Very often he will stick to his first read regardless of who is open. 
As stated above he goes through his reads very slowly and if hes been pressured he tends to stick onto his #1 target
Tends to not pickup a blitz pre snap quite often, gets flustered even if the blitzing players aren't getting through which would take his accuracy/decision making to a much lower level.



With all that being said, I want to also put things into perspective. While he had much success at the college level, most of his cons in my eyes were things he did not have to overcome on a weekly basis where as in the NFL you likely are to face these issues on the regular. It's very possible for him to fix a lot of these issues but my problem with him throughout the 2021 season is I've seen none of these issues fixed. Is it bad coaching? Theres a good chance of that but theres no gurantee that any of it will be fixed. 

Thinking back to 2012 when Luck came out you had a guy who was extremely accurate with a big arm who seemed to thrive under pressure. This is the main reason I found the entire "generational prospect" nonsense to be laughable and have been critical. He's a project QB who has the physical tools and in my opinion the competitive nature and smarts to right his wrongs. But only time will tell and as for right now he hasn't improved any of his flaws. And I'm tired of seeing people on this board defend him/insult me for my opinion when the man himself is proving what I'm saying to be accurate. 

I want him to be that guy, I hope he will be. But quit getting upset over my and other peoples opinions on him.. I don't just take the word of skip bayless and watch a 4 min highlight video to come to my conclusions. I'm a die hard football fan I put time into my hobby.

(12-27-2021, 07:11 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

Context??

Maybe you have some valid points that the Jags have done next to nothing to ensure success for this team's players via GM/HC hires... But good players still play well in bad situations, it literally happens every season. Great players play great, regardless of coaching. For every example you give here I can give you another of a player who did better with just as bad of a situation. The best example near to us I can give you is Minshew.

Poorly coached team with a bad GM, same Oline with less WR/TE talent in 2019 as a rookie. Somehow Misnhew went 6-6 and the 4 games he didn't start were all losses. He gets a raw deal here in 2020 (he was given 0 help) and gets traded late in 21 camp.  His 1st game as starter vs this same Jets team we just faced, and he threw 2 tds and 260+ on 25 attempts. Sure, he has a better situation now in Philly, but he didn't here and somehow he still performed well enough to win games with multiple rookie of the week awards. Btw, that is what a good QB is supposed to do to a bad team, complete 80% of his passes with multiple TDs in a blowout win... Amazing, remember Brady's 51 burger vs our Gus Bus squad? That's what it's supposed to look like vs bad teams. Not 280 yards on 39 attempts with 0 Tds, tbh TL should have thrown 2 picks with 1 being a pick 6. Disgusting #s vs the worst defense in football right now.

The truly pathetic thing is they did the same thing to Minshew in 2019/2020 as they are doing to Lawrence now. They went and got absolutely no one to help their young QBs. No WRs worth a damn, no TE(a young QB's best friend) until the Arnold trade, and no impactful OL help. Maybe Little is a stud and we land a good FA pickup this FA, but last free agency was THE year to load up on talent to help TL and we blew it. That, I will agree with you on. Who will want to come to JAX with the cap going up and more teams having space? No one.

Rookie QBs don't overcome those obstacles commonly at all. Whether they are "good players" or not. In fact, they don't overcome those obstacles, period. 

Minshew had a competent staff, a few better options at receiver (Chark/ Conley/Westbrook are better than every receiver on this team not named Marvin Jones) and Minshew had a coordinator that knew how to mitigate his weaknesses much more than how we've seen Lawrence thrown to the wolves the first 13 or 14 weeks of the year. (yesterday's calls were better)

I don't see this season's trials of Lawrence on par with the lesser [BLEEP] show Minshew had to fight through. 
Minshew was impressive and that's why we all got excited, but the charade didn't last as defenses figured out his weaknesses and the OC couldn't throw any more smoke and mirrors out that hadn't been exposed already. It was what it was, but the deck stacked against Minshew was not as loaded as the deck stacked against Lawrence. URBAN MEYER alone accounts for a major shift of the "unfavorable circumstances" needle toward Lawrence.

(12-27-2021, 02:16 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 02:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Compare with bortles numbers.

Oh look, someone got snippy because he was the one who made the comparison and he now has egg on his face.

And Bortles? HAA

Bortles 2014 Completion Percentage : 58.9 
Trevor's 2021 Completion Percentage:  58.7

Bortles YPA: 6.1
Trevors YPA: 5.9

Bortles YPG: 207
Lawrence 2021 YPG: 215.0



Bortles 2014 Yards: 2908
Trevor 2021 Yards: 3225

Bortles Passer rating: 69.5
Trevor Passer Rating 2021: 70.6

Bortles QBR: 26.7
Trevor QBR: 32.5

Bortles 1D Passing: 136
Trevor 1D Passing: 158

Bortles  Rush Yards /TD's / 1D: 419/ 0/ 28
Trevor:  Rush Yards / TD's / 1D: 301/ 2 / 18

Bortles INT: 17
Trevor: 14

Bortles game winning drives: 1
Trevor game winning drives: 2

Bortles and Trevor basically even in two categories (0.2 difference in those), threw only 2 more touchdowns, rushed a bit better although Trevor scored, and was worse in all other categories, and he played 14 games as (technically 13.5).

Do you even think before you post?

---

(12-27-2021, 02:11 PM)TearExtractor Wrote: [ -> ]Imagine comparing Lawrence to Gabbert and being happy about his stats being slightly better.

Its like being happy your are being served a second helping of [BLEEP] because they put some seasoning on it this time.

You're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't the one who made a dumb claim that Trevor is playing like Gabbert. The evidence speaks that he is having a better rookie year then both Bortles and Gabbert, with an arguably dead even or worse  roster situation. Bortles had Hurns and Robinson his first year. Jones maybe sniff's Hurns jock, but not by much. Doesn't mean I am happy, just showing trolls are gonna troll. I could post twenty different QB's who had inconsistent or downright bad rookie years and went on to have a good career, and trolls just handwave it. This [Gabbert / Bortles vs. Lawrence] was their chosen metric, not mine.

Also he left out somehthing.  Bortles 11 Tds in 13 games started.  Lawrence with 9 tds in 15 games started.  Hmmm

---

(12-27-2021, 03:43 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 03:41 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]When did this accuracy problem thing start? Are there advanced passing metrics that say Trevor is significantly worse accuracy wise? Or does this mean sometimes you see him throw higher or lower than would be ideal, and the receiver doesn't make the catch?

Isn't completion percentage the closest metric to determine that? If so, he's exactly what I think he is (and most likely will be as a rookie): up and down. 

Then again, how do you break down that to throws that truly weren't accurate, throws that hit the receiver in the hands, or throws where the WR ran the wrong route (e.g. the Tennessee debacle)

---

(12-27-2021, 03:35 PM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: [ -> ]People defend Trevor way too much when he clearly has issues (accuracy moslty) and hasn't shown that "generational talent"
People attack Trevor too much while the guy is being coached by some of the worst coaches in the league, has a mediocre O-line and WRs have dropped like 30 passes or more... Oh and now the guy doesn't have a RB.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The guy can be good (probably not great, not top 5) with better coaching and better talent around him. I've only watched him as a Jag and his last game at Clemson. I gotta say, in that game against Ohio St I didn't see a much different QB, never saw that talent people talk about, I was unimpressed but I thought "it's just one game and Clemson had a bad game". Now I am doubting the guy has that kind of talent, but if you ask me, the guy can develop in a good enough QB, with enough talent around him he could win a SB but he is never gonna be a Brady, Manning, Mahomes, etc.

I agree in a sense that making a judgement call either way is premature (i.e. we don't exactly what he will be; I see positive signs but hey, I'm not a pro). 

But some in this thread have already labeled him, and no amount of reasoning will get them to wait and see.

That goes both ways buddy.  Some have crowned Lawrence a hall of famer as soon as we drafted him.  You know what will shut people like me up?  Good play on the field.  Lets see a QB who is a franchise guy and play at a somewhat high level.  For the fact that he has regressed his rookie year is a huge red flag.   I haven't seen anyone claiming he is a bust yet but after this year everyone should have some doubts.

(12-27-2021, 05:56 PM)mal234 Wrote: [ -> ]This isn't good anyway you slice it:

https://twitter.com/NFLonCBS/status/1475490404103507968

Get those facts out of here.   We will insult you for your crazy audacity to blame the golden boy.

It's the coaches fault, it's the receivers fault, it's the coordinators fault, it's the guy who pumps up the footballs fault, it's the winds fault,  it's never Trevors.

(12-27-2021, 08:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 02:16 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]Oh look, someone got snippy because he was the one who made the comparison and he now has egg on his face.

And Bortles? HAA

Bortles 2014 Completion Percentage : 58.9 
Trevor's 2021 Completion Percentage:  58.7

Bortles YPA: 6.1
Trevors YPA: 5.9

Bortles YPG: 207
Lawrence 2021 YPG: 215.0



Bortles 2014 Yards: 2908
Trevor 2021 Yards: 3225

Bortles Passer rating: 69.5
Trevor Passer Rating 2021: 70.6

Bortles QBR: 26.7
Trevor QBR: 32.5

Bortles 1D Passing: 136
Trevor 1D Passing: 158

Bortles  Rush Yards /TD's / 1D: 419/ 0/ 28
Trevor:  Rush Yards / TD's / 1D: 301/ 2 / 18

Bortles INT: 17
Trevor: 14

Bortles game winning drives: 1
Trevor game winning drives: 2

Bortles and Trevor basically even in two categories (0.2 difference in those), threw only 2 more touchdowns, rushed a bit better although Trevor scored, and was worse in all other categories, and he played 14 games as (technically 13.5).

Do you even think before you post?

---

You're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't the one who made a dumb claim that Trevor is playing like Gabbert. The evidence speaks that he is having a better rookie year then both Bortles and Gabbert, with an arguably dead even or worse  roster situation. Bortles had Hurns and Robinson his first year. Jones maybe sniff's Hurns jock, but not by much. Doesn't mean I am happy, just showing trolls are gonna troll. I could post twenty different QB's who had inconsistent or downright bad rookie years and went on to have a good career, and trolls just handwave it. This [Gabbert / Bortles vs. Lawrence] was their chosen metric, not mine.

Also he left out somehthing.  Bortles 11 Tds in 13 games started.  Lawrence with 9 tds in 15 games started.  Hmmm

---

(12-27-2021, 03:43 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't completion percentage the closest metric to determine that? If so, he's exactly what I think he is (and most likely will be as a rookie): up and down. 

Then again, how do you break down that to throws that truly weren't accurate, throws that hit the receiver in the hands, or throws where the WR ran the wrong route (e.g. the Tennessee debacle)

---

I agree in a sense that making a judgement call either way is premature (i.e. we don't exactly what he will be; I see positive signs but hey, I'm not a pro). 

But some in this thread have already labeled him, and no amount of reasoning will get them to wait and see.

That goes both ways buddy.  Some have crowned Lawrence a hall of famer as soon as we drafted him.  You know what will shut people like me up?  Good play on the field.  Lets see a QB who is a franchise guy and play at a somewhat high level.  For the fact that he has regressed his rookie year is a huge red flag.   I haven't seen anyone claiming he is a bust yet but after this year everyone should have some doubts.

Lawrence played very well yesterday but you're still flapping your gums. 
What gives? 

He was 26/39 for 252 yards. 
He threw 3 inaccurate passes in 39 attempts. 
He suffered 4 dropped balls by receivers including a TD pass. 

Adjusted numbers on those drops would have him at 300+ and 1TD and 0 INT

He also scampered for 37 yards

I didn't see anything alarming in his play yesterday whatsoever.

So, maybe, just shut the [BLEEP] up for this week?

(12-27-2021, 06:00 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 05:44 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I was thinking the same thing. Hilarious! Will Lawrence break 10 tds on a 17 game season? Tune in

Again, YOU were the one making negative comparisons saying he played like Gabbert; you were ofc shown to be dense using your own metrics. You are presented with evidence that he isn't, then throw Bortles out there, get egg on that one, and are hoisted by your own petard.

I don't know if your trolling me or serious.  If serious it's really pathetic.

The numbers are almost the same but Lawrence has the benefit of playing in an even more pass friendly league while having decent receivers at the start of the season.   Both Gabbert and Borltes had 0 receivers in Chark's or even Marvin Jones league.  

The numbers are so close it's pathetic to even suggest you are right.   Gabbert and Bortles also threw more TD's in less starts then lawrence if you want to talk about facts. 

It's a case of what turd smells the worse.  Congrats I guess that you proved Gabberts Turd may stink a little more than Lawrence I guess. You got me?

(12-27-2021, 08:17 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 08:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Also he left out somehthing.  Bortles 11 Tds in 13 games started.  Lawrence with 9 tds in 15 games started.  Hmmm

---

That goes both ways buddy.  Some have crowned Lawrence a hall of famer as soon as we drafted him.  You know what will shut people like me up?  Good play on the field.  Lets see a QB who is a franchise guy and play at a somewhat high level.  For the fact that he has regressed his rookie year is a huge red flag.   I haven't seen anyone claiming he is a bust yet but after this year everyone should have some doubts.

Lawrence played very well yesterday but you're still flapping your gums. 
What gives? 

He was 26/39 for 252 yards. 
He threw 3 inaccurate passes in 39 attempts. 
He suffered 4 dropped balls by receivers including a TD pass. 

Adjusted numbers on those drops would have him at 300+ and 1TD and 0 INT

He also scampered for 37 yards

I didn't see anything alarming in his play yesterday whatsoever.

So, maybe, just shut the [BLEEP] up for this week?

You guys always love to throw around the term context so let me give you some.

The Jets maybe the worst defense in the league when healthy.  They had guys fresh off the street playing in that game. More than half of their starting defense was hurt or on the covid list.

Lawrence still threw 0 TD's in the game while leading the team to only 21 points.    It's like if I gave you a medal for beating a wheel chaired kid at basketball.

CONTEXT!   BTW, he didn't play that well.  He left a lot of yards and td's on the field with his inaccurate throws.  He did make a handful of good throws, I will not deny that.  The stink of the bad is much worse than the good.

(12-27-2021, 08:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 02:16 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]Oh look, someone got snippy because he was the one who made the comparison and he now has egg on his face.

And Bortles? HAA

Bortles 2014 Completion Percentage : 58.9 
Trevor's 2021 Completion Percentage:  58.7

Bortles YPA: 6.1
Trevors YPA: 5.9

Bortles YPG: 207
Lawrence 2021 YPG: 215.0



Bortles 2014 Yards: 2908
Trevor 2021 Yards: 3225

Bortles Passer rating: 69.5
Trevor Passer Rating 2021: 70.6

Bortles QBR: 26.7
Trevor QBR: 32.5

Bortles 1D Passing: 136
Trevor 1D Passing: 158

Bortles  Rush Yards /TD's / 1D: 419/ 0/ 28
Trevor:  Rush Yards / TD's / 1D: 301/ 2 / 18

Bortles INT: 17
Trevor: 14

Bortles game winning drives: 1
Trevor game winning drives: 2

Bortles and Trevor basically even in two categories (0.2 difference in those), threw only 2 more touchdowns, rushed a bit better although Trevor scored, and was worse in all other categories, and he played 14 games as (technically 13.5).

Do you even think before you post?

---

You're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't the one who made a dumb claim that Trevor is playing like Gabbert. The evidence speaks that he is having a better rookie year then both Bortles and Gabbert, with an arguably dead even or worse  roster situation. Bortles had Hurns and Robinson his first year. Jones maybe sniff's Hurns jock, but not by much. Doesn't mean I am happy, just showing trolls are gonna troll. I could post twenty different QB's who had inconsistent or downright bad rookie years and went on to have a good career, and trolls just handwave it. This [Gabbert / Bortles vs. Lawrence] was their chosen metric, not mine.

Also he left out somehthing.  Bortles 11 Tds in 13 games started.  Lawrence with 9 tds in 15 games started.  Hmmm

---

(12-27-2021, 03:43 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't completion percentage the closest metric to determine that? If so, he's exactly what I think he is (and most likely will be as a rookie): up and down. 

Then again, how do you break down that to throws that truly weren't accurate, throws that hit the receiver in the hands, or throws where the WR ran the wrong route (e.g. the Tennessee debacle)

---

I agree in a sense that making a judgement call either way is premature (i.e. we don't exactly what he will be; I see positive signs but hey, I'm not a pro). 

But some in this thread have already labeled him, and no amount of reasoning will get them to wait and see.

That goes both ways buddy.  Some have crowned Lawrence a hall of famer as soon as we drafted him.  You know what will shut people like me up?  Good play on the field.  Lets see a QB who is a franchise guy and play at a somewhat high level.  For the fact that he has regressed his rookie year is a huge red flag.   I haven't seen anyone claiming he is a bust yet but after this year everyone should have some doubts.

If he looks like the same exact player at this time next year, I'll start to get some doubts. Until then, all of the positives FAR out weigh the couple negatives.

And as far as comparing Bortles/Gabbert to Lawrence, it's not even close. Lawrence blows them out of the water in natural QB ability. Gabbert was awful and curled into a ball at the first sign of pressure. Bortles just cant throw a football. Lawrence has the pocket presence that both of them could only dream of. Just watch them play and don't look at the numbers. It's night and day.

(12-27-2021, 06:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's so simple.

• There is not a QB in the league right now more crippled by poor coaching than Lawrence has been this season.
  
• There are only 5 QB in the league who have been hurried more often than Lawrence.
  
• There are only 10 Qb in the league who have seen more blitzes than Lawrence
  
• There are only 4 QB in the league who have suffered as many dropped passes as Lawrence.
  
• There are 0 starting QB league wide (who have not missed games) who have as few red zone pass attempts as Lawrence. ZERO
  
• There are only 7 QB league wide who have been knocked down as many times as Lawrence
  
• There are 26 QBs league wide (50 attempts or more) who experienced better average pocket time than Lawrence. 
  

This ^ represents a ridiculous amount of crap being stacked against the kid having any chance to perform well in his rookie season. 

If you are comparing Lawrence statistically to anyone minus this ^ context, you have waded very deep into nothing more than a fool's errand reserved for the grandest of fools. 

Additionally, he's made about 108 poor pass attempts this season reportedly.
 The league average is 72 poor pass attempts for players who have thrown in 10 games or more. 
So - over 15 games - he has thrown 2.4 more poor passes per game than the league average. 
That is a rookie being a rookie. 
He can fix that. 

Context, people.
Analyze him with some measure of context.

This makes me feel a lot better seeing all this. I know our team is bad crazy how they pretty much have done everything to not help him out.

(12-27-2021, 08:17 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-27-2021, 08:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Also he left out somehthing.  Bortles 11 Tds in 13 games started.  Lawrence with 9 tds in 15 games started.  Hmmm

---

That goes both ways buddy.  Some have crowned Lawrence a hall of famer as soon as we drafted him.  You know what will shut people like me up?  Good play on the field.  Lets see a QB who is a franchise guy and play at a somewhat high level.  For the fact that he has regressed his rookie year is a huge red flag.   I haven't seen anyone claiming he is a bust yet but after this year everyone should have some doubts.

Lawrence played very well yesterday but you're still flapping your gums. 
What gives? 

He was 26/39 for 252 yards. 
He threw 3 inaccurate passes in 39 attempts. 
He suffered 4 dropped balls by receivers including a TD pass. 

Adjusted numbers on those drops would have him at 300+ and 1TD and 0 INT

He also scampered for 37 yards

I didn't see anything alarming in his play yesterday whatsoever.

So, maybe, just shut the [BLEEP] up for this week?

Hes just dug his heels in so deep on this Lawrence hate nonsense that hes gotta go all in now. He wants him to flop so bad just so he can be the first to say "see, see, I told you all so".

Kinda weird.