Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Stafford and RG3 weren't better QB prospects than Teddy. 

So the Redskins shouldve waited a year before dumping their draft picks on a bad qb who won ROTY?

Quote:People who want the Jaguars to be good, are upset. People who fell in love with some 2nd-3rd tier scrub QB, are excited. The woes of being a joke franchise.

 

So you are saying that people who want the Jags to be good are upset that we aren't as bad as we thought.  

Can't believe the tankers still sucking on it for 13 pages now lol

Quote:Wins are never meaningless.   Wins mean  something.  

 

Wins and losses are a measure of where you stand.   If you are 5-11, you are a better team than if you are 1-15.    So, better team, worse draft position or worse team, better draft position.   I will take the better team and worse draft position.    5-11 would mean we are closer to contention than if we are 1-15. 

 

So wins are not meaningless.   They do mean something.   They mean you are better than if you lost. 

 

The above is so simple minded though. 

 

Because it fails to acknowledge that going 1-15 is more beneficial to a team than finishing say 5-11 in a year when a QB like Teddy Bridgewater is sitting at the top of the draft. 

 

Its funny because the same people were pretty much using the same comebacks as the Jags won their way out of the Andrew Luck sweepstakes heading down the stretch of the 2011 season. 

Quote:I'm not banking on finding a QB in the third. I know you didn't say that, but, I will put it out there just in case there's any confusion. Wilson was a remarkable pick, and certainly not one that I believe should be followed as some sort of trend. I just don't think that there's only one guy per draft who can be a player to build around. But, I'm certainly not advocating finding your team's cornerstones in the 3rd round. You want those impact players/cornerstones in the first. Anything after is a bonus.


As far as improving the division rival's draft position; are you advocating the team base its decisions on its opponents? Lets say the Jags have the #1 overall pick and the Texans have the #2 overall pick. The Jags take Teddy and the Texans decide they like what they have in Keenum (don't ask me why, its a hypothetical situation. Just go with it. <_<) and think Clowney is the miraculous talent of the draft. Both teams get what they want. You can flip the draft order, and in that situation, the Texans would still take Clowney and the Jags would still take Teddy. What's the tangible loss? You're hedging your bet here on the idea that the Jags want the same player as everyone else in the league. As we saw from Al Davis' drafting of the fastest guy in the draft every year and Gene Smith's who knows what he was thinking draft picks, you really have no idea who anyone's going to take. Remember Eugene Monroe? He was considered the most pro-ready and safest tackle in the draft. Two tackles went before him. The Jags didn't need to move to get the guy they wanted, and they got him at #9.


Arguing that losing gives the Jags a better spot than a rival just seems like a really poor strategy to build a team. Every team ranks players differently, you can't be afraid someone's going to take the guy you want. You're just setting yourself up for failure that way. The Jags may have the 5th draft pick, and have their top rated guy still be on the board for all we know. Trying to lose just so you don't have to worry about your guy possibly being drafted seems like a pretty risky slope to start traveling down. :confused:

To your last paragraph:

That's a great point. But, wouldn't you want the number one pick and trade back, get your guy if he's still there and extra picks? Even though there may or may not be the next best QB in this draft you still need to build through the draft and the more picks the better. So looking at it like that, I'd still rather 2 wins than four wins. If hoping to get the best draft position or a lot of draft picks so we cam build through the draft makes me not a fan of the team, then I guess I'm not a fan. The whole "not a fan" thing is old. If we weren't all fans, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

Edit: latter half of the post not directed to you lmd.

Quote:Teams usually don't part with #1 overall picks when a Manning/ Luck/ Aikman or Bridgewater is sitting there.

lol at putting Teddy on the same level as the above. Try a Matt Ryan and Sam Bradford

Quote:You and I were both here.  At some point, it became clear that the Jags were not getting Luck or RG3, who were hyped about twice as much as everyone's darling out of Louisville.

 

The board reaaallly wanted Blackmon.  I'm not making anything up.

Yea but nobody say tank for Blackmon lol

Breaking news......bridgewater isn't the second coming.

Quote:Wins are never meaningless.   Wins mean  something.  

 

Wins and losses are a measure of where you stand.   If you are 5-11, you are a better team than if you are 1-15.    So, better team, worse draft position or worse team, better draft position.   I will take the better team and worse draft position.    5-11 would mean we are closer to contention than if we are 1-15. 

 

So wins are not meaningless.   They do mean something.   They mean you are better than if you lost. 

 

No they don't.  That's a very simplistic way of putting it.  There are many things that go into a game - injuries, how well the other team plays, etc.

What doesn't lie is statistics and trends over the entire season.  In the NFL, there's no difference between a two win team and a four win team except a little bit of bad luck.  Secondly, there's no such thing as momentum between season, especially with roster and coaching changes imminent for just about every team.  How did winning the Super Bowl work out for the Ravens this year?  How did having a great season work out for Colin Kaepernick this year?  Real improvement comes by upgrading the roster.

Quote: 

And no, if a team truly wants a player, they can't get them.  Team's aren't always willing to trade.  If the Texans get the #1 pick, I highly doubt we'd be able to trade up to get that pick.  In fact if they were to trade it away, they'd likely trade it to another team for less rather than trade it to us.  Unless they thought whoever we selected wouldn't be very good. (Which would be a warning sign)

 

Let me type s l o w e r  f o r  y o u  a s  w e l l.  I never said we've handed the Texans their franchise QB.  I said... and again I quote:

 

Again, I have put it in bold the important part here.

 

The 'perceived prize' isn't Bridgewater, or some player.  It's the 1st pick.  With which Caldwell can then do with what he wants.  The prize is opportunity.  Which this team needs.  It's something this team has lacked for a long time.  

so, it's the first pick, and everyone else is going to suck? Is that the position you are going to stick to? Do you really want to go down this road? You really are showing your and those with your similar mindset shortsightedness.

 

So, what is it?

 

You played on a nuance just as I did. We can derail the conversation into any direction you wish. If you don't wish to do that, step up to the plate, answer a simple question. Is winning what you want or is losing what you want? There is no ambiguity in the question. It is a one word answer. Step up to the plate my man.

Quote:Hahaha I have to laugh at this.  If you think for one second that you are a true fan, then you are dumber than I originally thought. 

 

lol, I should just start refering to you as "paint chips".  

Quote:I'm not banking on finding a QB in the third. I know you didn't say that, but, I will put it out there just in case there's any confusion. Wilson was a remarkable pick, and certainly not one that I believe should be followed as some sort of trend. I just don't think that there's only one guy per draft who can be a player to build around. But, I'm certainly not advocating finding your team's cornerstones in the 3rd round. You want those impact players/cornerstones in the first. Anything after is a bonus.

 

As far as improving the division rival's draft position; are you advocating the team base its decisions on its opponents? Lets say the Jags have the #1 overall pick and the Texans have the #2 overall pick. The Jags take Teddy and the Texans decide they like what they have in Keenum (don't ask me why, its a hypothetical situation. Just go with it. <_<) and think Clowney is the miraculous talent of the draft. Both teams get what they want. You can flip the draft order, and in that situation, the Texans would still take Clowney and the Jags would still take Teddy. What's the tangible loss? You're hedging your bet here on the idea that the Jags want the same player as everyone else in the league. As we saw from Al Davis' drafting of the fastest guy in the draft every year and Gene Smith's who knows what he was thinking draft picks, you really have no idea who anyone's going to take. Remember Eugene Monroe? He was considered the most pro-ready and safest tackle in the draft. Two tackles went before him. The Jags didn't need to move to get the guy they wanted, and they got him at #9.

 

Arguing that losing gives the Jags a better spot than a rival just seems like a really poor strategy to build a team. Every team ranks players differently, you can't be afraid someone's going to take the guy you want. You're just setting yourself up for failure that way. The Jags may have the 5th draft pick, and have their top rated guy still be on the board for all we know. Trying to lose just so you don't have to worry about your guy possibly being drafted seems like a pretty risky slope to start traveling down. :confused:

I can certainly agree that you might still get your preferred guy. But it's now out of your control and you very well might not, with those odds degrading the lower you are. I'd rather have all of the options and it be up to us.


And despite what some (not saying you) want to imply, it's not about TB for me. I don't know if he's the guy. If he's not, I'd still rather Caldwell can choose his guy among all available options (including Clowney, or trading down, or whatever helps us most). The best possible situation is that we have all options to improve the team.


But what I didn't see in your response was the tangible gain you see from a win in a losing season like this. I don't see one. So even giving you the point that there is only a likely loss (rather than guaranteed) due to lower draft position, what do we gain?

Quote:So you are saying that people who want the Jags to be good are upset that we aren't as bad as we thought.

HAHAHHAHAHAhahahahshdgahdggahagha!!


He's just mad because the player he hearts may not be wearing teal next year. He's an obsessive little Belieber...but with football players.


As soon as our draft pick comes and goes, as he did after we passed his flavor of the year Geno Smith, he will change his avatar to Jamies and repeat his schtick for another year.

Give me Matthews and Manziel..

Quote:lol, I should just start refering to you as "paint chips".

 

 

Good one.  Another original comeback by the great TMD.  LOL. 

 

"Paint Chips" is a lot better than what I refer to you as. 

Quote:lol at putting Teddy on the same level as the above. Try a Matt Ryan and Sam Bradford

 

When TB measures in at 6' 3/4" at the combine his stock will plummet. But love is blind...

Quote:Give me Matthews and Manziel..

Texans will get both after they trade out of the first pick and hire sumlin lol

Quote:so, it's the first pick, and everyone else is going to suck? Is that the position you are going to stick to? Do you really want to go down this road? You really are showing your and those with your similar mindset shortsightedness.

 

So, what is it?

 

You played on a nuance just as I did. We can derail the conversation into any direction you wish. If you don't wish to do that, step up to the plate, answer a simple question. Is winning what you want or is losing what you want? There is no ambiguity in the question. It is a one word answer. Step up to the plate my man.

 

I've never said that everyone else is going to suck.  I've said that the 1st pick gives this team more opportunity than the 3rd pick.  Is this not true?  

 

Take Gene Smith's tenure.  Look at the QB's he had available to pick from.  He made the wrong decision, but was he ever in position to take a good one?  At least within reason?  By that, I mean no hindsight.  If other QB needy teams passed on them too, then I'd argue it qualifies as Hindsight.

Quote:The above is so simple minded though. 

 

Because it fails to acknowledge that going 1-15 is more beneficial to a team than finishing say 5-11 in a year when a QB like Teddy Bridgewater is sitting at the top of the draft. 

 

Its funny because the same people were pretty much using the same comebacks as the Jags won their way out of the Andrew Luck sweepstakes heading down the stretch of the 2011 season. 

 

It is more beneficial for a team to be 5-11 than for a team to be 1-15, because if a team is 5-11 the record says they are better than a 1-15 team.   5-11 means we are closer to contention than a 1-15 team.  

 

It means something about the players you have on your team.   Apparently, you would prefer to have a 1-15 roster of players and the first pick in the draft, over a 5-11 roster of players and a later pick in the draft.  

 

The record is a measure of what kind of team you have.   That is why wins are not meaningless.   They are a measure of where you stand at that time.  

 

That's what you fail to see.  

Quote:So you are saying that people who want the Jags to be good are upset that we aren't as bad as we thought.  

 

except they still are as bad as we thought. Not sure what they showed you in either of the 2 wins that give you the above idea. One team sucked less than the other in both Jags wins. It wasn't the case of a Jaguar domination or anything. If that was the case, then yes, you could say the above.