(09-13-2022, 08:35 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]An interesting aside, analytics seem to put Trevor's performance Sunday in the average range (14-15th best QB performance in the league according to football outsiders https://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-...ay-records) in his first game in a new system with a bunch of new players around him and having suffered the highest amount of 4-man pressure (which means the secondary still had everyone back in coverage) in the league. Which fits what my eyes told me, not elite, but not the kind of, "we have to hide the QB," disasters we've repeatedly seen here over the years.
I know the bib brigade is always ready to press the eject button, but Trevor has already shown a lot. Anyone who isn't still onboard to see more deserves to go back in time 10 years, A Christmas Carol style, and relive the Jaguar's Gabbert and Bortles years to understand what it means to be hopeless as a QB.
This for me is one area we are really letting him down on. Unless the QB is holding the ball for 8-9 seconds, no way should a 4 man rush get home and with us it's usually 2 or 3 guys getting pressure. It's a real nightmare for a QB as D's are hoping you'll throw it up so you need to be smart but when your scrambling from 4 man pressure all you can really do is take the sack or throw it away. If teams constantly get home with 4 man pressure it's going to be a long Sunday.
We have a QB that can punish teams that give him too much time and can throw a deep ball. Also running the ball will help there but it's something the Oline needs to get much better at.
(09-13-2022, 10:26 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 08:35 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]An interesting aside, analytics seem to put Trevor's performance Sunday in the average range (14-15th best QB performance in the league according to football outsiders https://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-...ay-records) in his first game in a new system with a bunch of new players around him and having suffered the highest amount of 4-man pressure (which means the secondary still had everyone back in coverage) in the league. Which fits what my eyes told me, not elite, but not the kind of, "we have to hide the QB," disasters we've repeatedly seen here over the years.
I know the bib brigade is always ready to press the eject button, but Trevor has already shown a lot. Anyone who isn't still onboard to see more deserves to go back in time 10 years, A Christmas Carol style, and relive the Jaguar's Gabbert and Bortles years to understand what it means to be hopeless as a QB.
This for me is one area we are really letting him down on. Unless the QB is holding the ball for 8-9 seconds, no way should a 4 man rush get home and with us it's usually 2 or 3 guys getting pressure. It's a real nightmare for a QB as D's are hoping you'll throw it up so you need to be smart but when your scrambling from 4 man pressure all you can really do is take the sack or throw it away. If teams constantly get home with 4 man pressure it's going to be a long Sunday.
We have a QB that can punish teams that give him too much time and can throw a deep ball. Also running the ball will help there but it's something the Oline needs to get much better at.
Realistically, it is more like 4.5 or five seconds that is kind-of the max limit to hold the ball. In fact, 4 seconds is long enough to be labeled a "coverage sack" at times.
We have receivers that can be coming out of their breaks (ready for the ball) on intermediate routes in under 3 seconds.
Trevor was getting pressure in under 3 seconds way too often on Sunday, sometimes in under 2.
Just for perspective's sake, I just pulled up the replay and timed the first two pressures int he first drive.
The first (given up by Scherff) was 2.85 seconds, and the next, later in that drive (given up by Fortner and Bartch) was 2.75 seconds. For those keeping score, the first was a penalty on the defense giving us a first down again, and the second was a completion for a first down.
The point being that pressure often comes quickly with this OL.
Hicken cited the PFF numbers for Lawrence this morning during the duval minute segment. In regards to his times under pressure Vs. his times with a clean pocket. Was good to hear him point it out and admit to it. When he has time in the pocket? He's pretty damn good. When he doesn't? Like the majority of the QB position? He tends to fall apart a little bit.
Give the kid time. Stay away from 3rd and 10+ situations and the kid will be fine the majority of the time. Again, something a lot of us were calling out during the gameday thread. RUN THE BALL. CALL A SCREEN. RUN A DRAW PLAY. Those little adjustments will fix the majority of the offensive line's shortcomings and make the defense think twice before running through any gaps or lanes.
(09-14-2022, 08:34 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]RUN THE BALL. CALL A SCREEN. RUN A DRAW PLAY.
I agree generally with your sentiment, but there a few problems IMHO:
The problem with the 'Call a screen' option, is that the screen play is most effective when countering a blitz. If a four man rush is getting home, the linebackers are still available to cover up the defensive hole a screen play is meant to take advantage of. Not to mention it calls on Lawrence to be accurate on a short throw which has been an issue.
The "Run a draw play" option generally requires a defense committed to stopping the pass. The linebackers have to step back into their zone or track their man in coverage as a first option. And of course to create that 'it calls on Lawrence to be accurate on a short throw which has been an issue.'
(09-14-2022, 12:45 PM)cland Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2022, 08:34 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]RUN THE BALL. CALL A SCREEN. RUN A DRAW PLAY.
I agree generally with your sentiment, but there a few problems IMHO:
The problem with the 'Call a screen' option, is that the screen play is most effective when countering a blitz. If a four man rush is getting home, the linebackers are still available to cover up the defensive hole a screen play is meant to take advantage of. Not to mention it calls on Lawrence to be accurate on a short throw which has been an issue.
The "Run a draw play" option generally requires a defense committed to stopping the pass. The linebackers have to step back into their zone or track their man in coverage as a first option. And of course to create that 'it calls on Lawrence to be accurate on a short throw which has been an issue.'
Situational football. As soon as our opening drive concluded and the second series began it was pretty clear Jack Del Rio was adjusting and started bringing the heat. There was some opportunities there to counter this rush. They didn't really take it IMHO. I think a screen pass is vastly easier to pull off Vs. an actual short throw.
There's no reason why Engram or Manhertz couldn't have been a target on a TE screen or Etienne, Agnew or Robinson being used in a similar fashion. They could have moved further to one side of the LOS mid play as well to buy more time.
With the draw? When you're also throwing it 42 times in a game and you have only had your two runningbacks collectively have 15 carries? It could have worked more in the redzone. Which Doug was trying to do in the passing game with them out of the backfield. So, I'll give him some credit there.
Again, I am being ultra, ultra nit picky in this game. Hopefully little adjustments are made in this week's game. That's all I want to see. Really worried with Buckner and Paye against this offensive line. Need to be faster in this contest.
Tom Brady was worse than Trevor on 3rd and 4th downs last week. He must not be a generational QB either.
One major option is the run/pass numbers need to be flipped. Lawrence should not be throwing it 30+ times a game. We need to be giving Robison/ETN many more carries. I get they are both coming off injury. This team has to find a way to run more successfully than pass. The pass protection can't hold up. The line did show promise in the run game though.
I agree with most of what they say. Bottom line it is year 2 and he has to play better. It is just bad QB play. Yes the line needs to play better but so does he.
https://youtu.be/iAAnleEgYo8
Not wrong as at all. But tony also thinks like most of us and this is really good rookie season cause urban was so bad.
Trevor cleans up the easy stuff we can do alot of things this year.
(09-13-2022, 01:35 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I haven't seen this posted anywhere, but can we talk about the second IG penalty?
I've never seen an IG called on a QB who's in the process of being sacked like that. The arm went forward and he couldn't generate the velocity because of the hit.
Even if his arm didn't get hit, he was throwing in a direction where there were no receivers and he was still in the pocket. Getting your arm hit won't get you out of a IG call in that situation.
If there was a receiver any where near that direction, they would have just called it an incomplete pass.
(09-15-2022, 05:32 AM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ] (09-13-2022, 01:35 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I haven't seen this posted anywhere, but can we talk about the second IG penalty?
I've never seen an IG called on a QB who's in the process of being sacked like that. The arm went forward and he couldn't generate the velocity because of the hit.
Even if his arm didn't get hit, he was throwing in a direction where there were no receivers and he was still in the pocket. Getting your arm hit won't get you out of a IG call in that situation.
If there was a receiver any where near that direction, they would have just called it an incomplete pass.
I'd have to look again. I thought there was a receiver on that area of the field just a ways away from where the ball landed because he couldn't generate the strength. Like if you drew a straight line out from where the ball landed, you would have hit a receiver pretty quickly.
Again though, I may be completely off since I haven't re-watched the play.
(09-15-2022, 07:13 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2022, 05:32 AM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]Even if his arm didn't get hit, he was throwing in a direction where there were no receivers and he was still in the pocket. Getting your arm hit won't get you out of a IG call in that situation.
If there was a receiver any where near that direction, they would have just called it an incomplete pass.
I'd have to look again. I thought there was a receiver on that area of the field just a ways away from where the ball landed because he couldn't generate the strength. Like if you drew a straight line out from where the ball landed, you would have hit a receiver pretty quickly.
Again though, I may be completely off since I haven't re-watched the play.
You aren't wrong, both were bad calls.
(09-14-2022, 07:12 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]One major option is the run/pass numbers need to be flipped. Lawrence should not be throwing it 30+ times a game. We need to be giving Robison/ETN many more carries. I get they are both coming off injury. This team has to find a way to run more successfully than pass. The pass protection can't hold up. The line did show promise in the run game though.
This is going to be interesting to see down the road after what Pederson said about this when it was called into question.
He flat out said:
![[Image: no-regrets-no-ragrets.gif]](https://c.tenor.com/AVoJn-doie0AAAAC/no-regrets-no-ragrets.gif)
After he made that statement he went onto add that it's under his belief and philosophy that you "Throw to score and you run to win". Meaning, he's going to keep slinging the rock downfield until he gets a comfortable lead to take the air out of the football down the stretch. Sounds good, in theory.
However, when your QB is getting his bell rung and breaking down fundamentally? Something has to give there. I went back and looked at a few more plays. I have one more tiny little complaint about Lawrence. That strike he hit Kirk on in the 2nd half downfield? If he puts more air under that football? He should technically hit Kirk in stride and he's streaking into the endzone Vs. laying out for it and hitting the turf with it.
This is why I have some hope for Lawrence overall. His accuracy will undoubtedly improve this year. As will his chemistry with the new additions around him on offense. He looks good from the pocket when not under any pressure. This is where I fully expect Doug Pederson to step his [BLEEP] game up as a football coach that won a Superbowl with two QB's and two different styles of play in one year.
Adapt or die.
(09-15-2022, 08:09 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2022, 07:12 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]One major option is the run/pass numbers need to be flipped. Lawrence should not be throwing it 30+ times a game. We need to be giving Robison/ETN many more carries. I get they are both coming off injury. This team has to find a way to run more successfully than pass. The pass protection can't hold up. The line did show promise in the run game though.
This is going to be interesting to see down the road after what Pederson said about this when it was called into question.
He flat out said:
After he made that statement he went onto add that it's under his belief and philosophy that you "Throw to score and you run to win". Meaning, he's going to keep slinging the rock downfield until he gets a comfortable lead to take the air out of the football down the stretch. Sounds good, in theory.
However, when your QB is getting his bell rung and breaking down fundamentally? Something has to give there. I went back and looked at a few more plays. I have one more tiny little complaint about Lawrence. That strike he hit Kirk on in the 2nd half downfield? If he puts more air under that football? He should technically hit Kirk in stride and he's streaking into the endzone Vs. laying out for it and hitting the turf with it.
This is why I have some hope for Lawrence overall. His accuracy will undoubtedly improve this year. As will his chemistry with the new additions around him on offense. He looks good from the pocket when not under any pressure. This is where I fully expect Doug Pederson to step his [BLEEP] game up as a football coach that won a Superbowl with two QB's and two different styles of play in one year.
Adapt or die.
Honestly, this is such a welcome change of aggression here.
Give and take for me. Lawrence needs to play better. However. If we're looking at it on strictly a week-to-week basis? It's 60/40 for me in that loss in Washington. 60 on the offensive line play & the play calling.
Lawrence overthrew Etienne on the opening drive. Fine. Noted. Etienne returned the favor by dropping an easy TD pass on a critical 4th and goal. That's a wash for me.
Lawrence didn't put enough air on the football to lead Kirk on that big strike. Fine. Noted. His offensive line allowed him to take 10 hits, 2 - 3 sacks and he was one of the most pressured QB's of week one. Maybe fix that up and he'll be more confident making his throws from the pocket.
This also falls back on coaching. 42 pass attempts Vs. 15 carries on the ground for two of your most explosive and game changing players on the entire football team. That's not going to work. Even more dumbfounding when you look at how damn successful those 15 carries were combined. When you find a weakness? You exploit it until they stop it or you get them on their toes and throw a change up at them when they think you're fixing to run it right at them again.
It is what it is. But call a spade a spade.
Trevor definitely has his misfires and probably doesn't run enough BUT it's also amazing what a simple drop by ETN (in which he could have walked into the end zone) can do you a players stats and game momentum.
(09-15-2022, 08:36 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Give and take for me. Lawrence needs to play better. However. If we're looking at it on strictly a week-to-week basis? It's 60/40 for me in that loss in Washington. 60 on the offensive line play & the play calling.
Lawrence overthrew Etienne on the opening drive. Fine. Noted. Etienne returned the favor by dropping an easy TD pass on a critical 4th and goal. That's a wash for me.
Lawrence didn't put enough air on the football to lead Kirk on that big strike. Fine. Noted. His offensive line allowed him to take 10 hits, 2 - 3 sacks and he was one of the most pressured QB's of week one. Maybe fix that up and he'll be more confident making his throws from the pocket.
This also falls back on coaching. 42 pass attempts Vs. 15 carries on the ground for two of your most explosive and game changing players on the entire football team. That's not going to work. Even more dumbfounding when you look at how damn successful those 15 carries were combined. When you find a weakness? You exploit it until they stop it or you get them on their toes and throw a change up at them when they think you're fixing to run it right at them again.
It is what it is. But call a spade a spade.
I agree with much of what you're saying, but disagree with the play calling take. The offense was in position several times and couldn't not execute, specifically the issues you cited above. The play calling was fine considering they were in position to take control of the game but just didn't execute properly.
Trevor has only played 18 games in his career and has already had 3 head coaches. Last year was such a disaster I'll give him a bit of a pass the first half of this year since he's learning a new system and playing with almost all new players. But, ultimately he needs to get better if we want to win football games. Everything relies on the QB these days to sustain long term success.
This thread should ultimately just merge with the Trevor Lawrence discussion thread but I can't disagree with Pete or Tony.
Does Trevor need to play better? Yea.... So do a lot of players on this team. It's week 1 man. Relax. I thought the offense moved the ball well but struggled in the red zone which is very much like the pre season. Can't blame the playcalling when they were legit moving the ball extremely well. Only 1 3 and out. ETN catches that TD or Zay makes a play on either of his end zone attempts or Trevor hits ETN on the wheel and this game is over.
I also agree with Pete when he says "Jags fans.... don't be this stupid. Can't call him a bust." I have absolutely zero worries about Trevor.
(09-15-2022, 08:43 AM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2022, 08:36 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Give and take for me. Lawrence needs to play better. However. If we're looking at it on strictly a week-to-week basis? It's 60/40 for me in that loss in Washington. 60 on the offensive line play & the play calling.
Lawrence overthrew Etienne on the opening drive. Fine. Noted. Etienne returned the favor by dropping an easy TD pass on a critical 4th and goal. That's a wash for me.
Lawrence didn't put enough air on the football to lead Kirk on that big strike. Fine. Noted. His offensive line allowed him to take 10 hits, 2 - 3 sacks and he was one of the most pressured QB's of week one. Maybe fix that up and he'll be more confident making his throws from the pocket.
This also falls back on coaching. 42 pass attempts Vs. 15 carries on the ground for two of your most explosive and game changing players on the entire football team. That's not going to work. Even more dumbfounding when you look at how damn successful those 15 carries were combined. When you find a weakness? You exploit it until they stop it or you get them on their toes and throw a change up at them when they think you're fixing to run it right at them again.
It is what it is. But call a spade a spade.
I agree with much of what you're saying, but disagree with the play calling take. The offense was in position several times and couldn't not execute, specifically the issues you cited above. The play calling was fine considering they were in position to take control of the game but just didn't execute properly.
Trevor has only played 18 games in his career and has already had 3 head coaches. Last year was such a disaster I'll give him a bit of a pass the first half of this year since he's learning a new system and playing with almost all new players. But, ultimately he needs to get better if we want to win football games. Everything relies on the QB these days to sustain long term success.
(09-15-2022, 08:50 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]This thread should ultimately just merge with the Trevor Lawrence discussion thread but I can't disagree with Pete or Tony.
Does Trevor need to play better? Yea.... So do a lot of players on this team. It's week 1 man. Relax. I thought the offense moved the ball well but struggled in the red zone which is very much like the pre season. Can't blame the playcalling when they were legit moving the ball extremely well. Only 1 3 and out. ETN catches that TD or Zay makes a play on either of his end zone attempts or Trevor hits ETN on the wheel and this game is over.
I also agree with Pete when he says "Jags fans.... don't be this stupid. Can't call him a bust." I have absolutely zero worries about Trevor.
I get the "Well, it was working". However, it wasn't working well enough in my opinion. Otherwise we're not having this conversation now. Consider this as well.
Unless that offensive line magically gets better and gets better fast? Are you really that comfortable and confident that Lawrence will survive this year dropping back forty or more times per game given what we saw in Washington?
The schedule only gets tough from here gentleman. This offensive line got absolutely handled by a defensive line that did not even have it's premier pass rusher. What do you think is going to happen in L.A on the 25th against the Chargers? With Bosa and Mack out there?
This can get ugly and ugly fast if Pederson thinks he can get away with Lawrence dropping back forty or more times per game. I get it. It's early. Same people were thinking that in Dallas and look at what happened with Prescott already.
I am a football fan. But I am a realist first.
(09-15-2022, 09:15 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2022, 08:43 AM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with much of what you're saying, but disagree with the play calling take. The offense was in position several times and couldn't not execute, specifically the issues you cited above. The play calling was fine considering they were in position to take control of the game but just didn't execute properly.
Trevor has only played 18 games in his career and has already had 3 head coaches. Last year was such a disaster I'll give him a bit of a pass the first half of this year since he's learning a new system and playing with almost all new players. But, ultimately he needs to get better if we want to win football games. Everything relies on the QB these days to sustain long term success.
(09-15-2022, 08:50 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]This thread should ultimately just merge with the Trevor Lawrence discussion thread but I can't disagree with Pete or Tony.
Does Trevor need to play better? Yea.... So do a lot of players on this team. It's week 1 man. Relax. I thought the offense moved the ball well but struggled in the red zone which is very much like the pre season. Can't blame the playcalling when they were legit moving the ball extremely well. Only 1 3 and out. ETN catches that TD or Zay makes a play on either of his end zone attempts or Trevor hits ETN on the wheel and this game is over.
I also agree with Pete when he says "Jags fans.... don't be this stupid. Can't call him a bust." I have absolutely zero worries about Trevor.
I get the "Well, it was working". However, it wasn't working well enough in my opinion. Otherwise we're not having this conversation now. Consider this as well.
Unless that offensive line magically gets better and gets better fast? Are you really that comfortable and confident that Lawrence will survive this year dropping back forty or more times per game given what we saw in Washington?
The schedule only gets tough from here gentleman. This offensive line got absolutely handled by a defensive line that did not even have it's premier pass rusher. What do you think is going to happen in L.A on the 25th against the Chargers? With Bosa and Mack out there?
This can get ugly and ugly fast if Pederson thinks he can get away with Lawrence dropping back forty or more times per game. I get it. It's early. Same people were thinking that in Dallas and look at what happened with Prescott already.
I am a football fan. But I am a realist first.
Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think this will necessarily be the norm. I think you have to call plays with the ebb and flow of the game and what you're seeing. There shouldn't be a set number of anything, in reality, call plays that should work against the defense if executed properly, which I feel Pederson did. We left 3 TDs on the board because of bad execution.
Not to also mention we have both RBs coming off of significant injuries.