(10-08-2023, 05:42 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 05:27 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Same offense every single week - nothing changed - not at all
I mean, wow. Bro. Just go eat all the bacon and eggs you need. I'll keep the crow for you on ice.
How can I discuss reality with you when you just start your discussion with an absolute falsehood?
PS: "Nothing changed - not at all"
That's a double negative... You just admitted that the offense did change!!!
Seriously. If you don't want to have a real discussion, just say so. But don't insult my intelligence, man. This was an absolute different game from week 2, 3, and even 4. You know it. I know it. Duuuvaall!!! knows it.
DUUUUUVAAAAAAAL!!!!!
I agree with your overall point, it was a completely different offense.
However, that statement that you quoted isn’t a double negative.
(10-08-2023, 05:48 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 05:42 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, wow. Bro. Just go eat all the bacon and eggs you need. I'll keep the crow for you on ice.
How can I discuss reality with you when you just start your discussion with an absolute falsehood?
PS: "Nothing changed - not at all"
That's a double negative... You just admitted that the offense did change!!!
Seriously. If you don't want to have a real discussion, just say so. But don't insult my intelligence, man. This was an absolute different game from week 2, 3, and even 4. You know it. I know it. Duuuvaall!!! knows it.
DUUUUUVAAAAAAAL!!!!!
Which plays were different besides the Ridley end around?
Name them
Uhhh... The entire 1st quarter was pass first?
Uhhhh, the first major run by Elite-EN as an off tackle in the 2nd quarter?
Uhhhh, we started throwing deep???
Uhhhhh, the entire game plan?
Like did you watch the game?
(10-08-2023, 05:52 PM)Dockerill91 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 05:42 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, wow. Bro. Just go eat all the bacon and eggs you need. I'll keep the crow for you on ice.
How can I discuss reality with you when you just start your discussion with an absolute falsehood?
PS: "Nothing changed - not at all"
That's a double negative... You just admitted that the offense did change!!!
Seriously. If you don't want to have a real discussion, just say so. But don't insult my intelligence, man. This was an absolute different game from week 2, 3, and even 4. You know it. I know it. Duuuvaall!!! knows it.
DUUUUUVAAAAAAAL!!!!!
I agree with your overall point, it was a completely different offense.
However, that statement that you quoted isn’t a double negative.
oop, you're right. It's a double negative. But it was a double negative to make his point. Thanks for pointing it out. I concede that point. My defense is that this guy is contradictiing himself constantly, and I got a bit overly aggressive.
My bad.
Apoligies to NYC4Jags.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1711058998336839865
this was an audible... Some said we couldn't make this types of plays because our O-Line isn't good enough....... Repeat... This was an audible... Excuse it as you want... I just see it as a deep throw when people thought we couldn't do that... Apparently, we can.
(10-08-2023, 06:02 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/i/status/1711058998336839865
this was an audible... Some said we couldn't make this types of plays because our O-Line isn't good enough....... Repeat... This was an audible... Excuse it as you want... I just see it as a deep throw when people thought we couldn't do that... Apparently, we can.
The offense was the same.
- Not calling as many runs in the middle one quarter doesn't make it a different offense.
- Hitting on pass plays that they've been running in every game but missing often on doesn't make it a different offense.
We have thrown deep and run plays intended to throw deep in every single game at a rate above the league average number.
Actually completing them more today doesn't make it a different offense.
It seems you are just horribly confusing executed plays as "a different offense."
Nothing changed but our success rate in execution. Many times despite the OL playing horribly - big kudos to Trevor on that.
You've already been educated that no one said
we can't throw deep. People told you we didn't need to do it
more. You should stop misstating that.
We've been trying to throw deep in every single game. Today we simply were able to connect on more of those attempts than we have in the 4 games prior. It's really simple if you'd just think about it.
You seem to completely not notice the number of times 3 receivers are running deep that Trevor can't throw to them because of pressure. It happens every week.
You are seeing plays get executed and thinking they are different plays than the ones that failed, but they aren't.
ETN scored big today on an inside run BTW.
(10-08-2023, 06:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 06:02 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/i/status/1711058998336839865
this was an audible... Some said we couldn't make this types of plays because our O-Line isn't good enough....... Repeat... This was an audible... Excuse it as you want... I just see it as a deep throw when people thought we couldn't do that... Apparently, we can.
The offense was the same.
- Not calling as many runs in the middle one quarter doesn't make it a different offense.
- Hitting on pass plays that they've been running in every game but missing often on doesn't make it a different offense.
We have thrown deep and run plays intended to throw deep in every single game at a rate above the league average number.
Actually completing them more today doesn't make it a different offense.
It seems you are just horribly confusing executed plays as "a different offense."
Nothing changed but our success rate in execution. Many times despite the OL playing horribly - big kudos to Trevor on that.
You've already been educated that no one said we can't throw deep. People told you we didn't need to do it more. You should stop misstating that.
We've been trying to throw deep in every single game. Today we simply were able to connect on more of those attempts than we have in the 4 games prior. It's really simple if you'd just think about it.
You seem to completely not notice the number of times 3 receivers are running deep that Trevor can't throw to because of pressure. It happens every week.
You are seeing plays get executed and thinking they are different plays than the ones that failed, but they aren't.
ETN scored big today on an inside run BTW.
I'm still amazed how he came out of that while reaching full stride. That was MJDesqe.
(10-08-2023, 06:35 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 06:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]The offense was the same.
- Not calling as many runs in the middle one quarter doesn't make it a different offense.
- Hitting on pass plays that they've been running in every game but missing often on doesn't make it a different offense.
We have thrown deep and run plays intended to throw deep in every single game at a rate above the league average number.
Actually completing them more today doesn't make it a different offense.
It seems you are just horribly confusing executed plays as "a different offense."
Nothing changed but our success rate in execution. Many times despite the OL playing horribly - big kudos to Trevor on that.
You've already been educated that no one said we can't throw deep. People told you we didn't need to do it more. You should stop misstating that.
We've been trying to throw deep in every single game. Today we simply were able to connect on more of those attempts than we have in the 4 games prior. It's really simple if you'd just think about it.
You seem to completely not notice the number of times 3 receivers are running deep that Trevor can't throw to because of pressure. It happens every week.
You are seeing plays get executed and thinking they are different plays than the ones that failed, but they aren't.
ETN scored big today on an inside run BTW.
I'm still amazed how he came out of that while reaching full stride. That was MJDesqe.
It really was!
Thought the same thing - similar to how he used to enter the scrum and somehow emerge blazing downfield.
(10-08-2023, 06:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 06:02 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/i/status/1711058998336839865
this was an audible... Some said we couldn't make this types of plays because our O-Line isn't good enough....... Repeat... This was an audible... Excuse it as you want... I just see it as a deep throw when people thought we couldn't do that... Apparently, we can.
The offense was the same.
- Not calling as many runs in the middle one quarter doesn't make it a different offense.
- Hitting on pass plays that they've been running in every game but missing often on doesn't make it a different offense.
We have thrown deep and run plays intended to throw deep in every single game at a rate above the league average number.
Actually completing them more today doesn't make it a different offense.
It seems you are just horribly confusing executed plays as "a different offense."
Nothing changed but our success rate in execution. Many times despite the OL playing horribly - big kudos to Trevor on that.
You've already been educated that no one said we can't throw deep. People told you we didn't need to do it more. You should stop misstating that.
We've been trying to throw deep in every single game. Today we simply were able to connect on more of those attempts than we have in the 4 games prior. It's really simple if you'd just think about it.
You seem to completely not notice the number of times 3 receivers are running deep that Trevor can't throw to because of pressure. It happens every week.
You are seeing plays get executed and thinking they are different plays than the ones that failed, but they aren't.
ETN scored big today on an inside run BTW.
You're arguing with a wall. He literally thinks that they changed the offense this week and just pushing Y instead of X was the difference.
(10-07-2023, 02:30 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]The pocket time isn't a stat you can use to say see the OL sucks. The OL can be the best in the league and still be the lowest in pocket time. It is meaningless or just another piece of data to support something.
Watch the times he starts to throw but pulls it, comes off the route because of pressure instead of moving in the pocket and throwing it. He is entirely locking on to WRs and if he does look elsewhere it is to fast.
The 2 biggest issues are the coaches trying to force Trevor into a pocket passer statue and Trevor not playing well with whatever the priority is on offense. The OL isn't great but that was a known issue and similar to last year. Deep routes take time but you should be able to read the coverage and determine if it will be open or not. Right now that isn't happening and most of the time the deep routes is covered and the WRs underneath are open.
Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk
OK, if not pocket time, how bout you look at the miserable state of our run blocking? backs are having to evade defenders in the backfield all the time. There's no push. Pressure is leaking through whether it's run or pass.
Trevor ain't got time to lock down on anyone. Pressure is on it's way before the plays even have time to develop.
(10-08-2023, 05:12 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]It's just nice to know that when the play calling was actually similar to last year, we were able to win a game against an elite team.
There are many that were crying that our O-Line was so bad that we couldn't drive the ball deep.
I'm sure those guys are eating a lot of eggs and bacon right now.... along with a bit of crow.
GO JAGS!!!!!
We didn't get yards in bunches (or points, for that matter) until the very late stages of the game.
When you smother a D like we did (TOP 2:1 advantage), that withering will eventually come. Keep in mind that at that point we were rocking Blake Hance and Shatley on the left. Maybe that was the lineup we needed all along, right?
That D was a MASH unit, and those still standing were hunched over gasping for air by the time the final whistle blew. The run game was miserable up until about mid-3rd early 4th.
Here's my opinion on "play calling."
The plays we call during games change every week, by necessity. We have an overall offense, which has a certain number of plays, which we practice during preseason. Then every week, based on the opponent, the plays we practice and call in the games will change. The essence of play calling doesn't occur during the games. We have a game plan, and we believe certain plays will work against that particular opponent, and we practice those plays during the week before that game. The offensive game plan is a collaborative effort between the offensive coordinator, the head coach, and the QB. Then during the game, faced with a particular situation, a play is called that is part of that game plan. The QB has the opportunity to audible out of that play to another play. So the offensive coordinator is only partially responsible for the plays that are called and slightly less responsible for the selection of the play that is executed, because he's occasionally overridden by the QB.
Game planning and execution are much more responsible for the success of the offense in any particular game than the play calling itself.
I know a lot of you might respond, "I knew all that. That's basic stuff." But I get the impression some people don't understand how the decision is made to call a certain play at a certain time. They see a lack of success, and they say, "They called the wrong play. It was bad play calling. If they had called this other play, it would have worked." And that's shallow thinking, just one step up from yelling "YOU SUCK" from the upper deck.
(10-08-2023, 05:52 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 05:48 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Which plays were different besides the Ridley end around?
Name them
Uhhh... The entire 1st quarter was pass first?
Uhhhh, the first major run by Elite-EN as an off tackle in the 2nd quarter?
Uhhhh, we started throwing deep???
Uhhhhh, the entire game plan?
Like did you watch the game?
(10-08-2023, 05:52 PM)Dockerill91 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with your overall point, it was a completely different offense.
However, that statement that you quoted isn’t a double negative.
oop, you're right. It's a double negative. But it was a double negative to make his point. Thanks for pointing it out. I concede that point. My defense is that this guy is contradictiing himself constantly, and I got a bit overly aggressive.
My bad.
Apoligies to NYC4Jags.
First, don't try so hard at trying to make a nickname. That was capital-B Bad.
IT IS STILL NOT A DOUBLE NEGATIVE. A double negative would have been "Nothing did not change". If you're gonna argue grammer, at least get it right.
I certainly doesn't make you look not foolish at all. (SWIDT?)
And yeah, I watched the entire game. I saw running plays that required heroics just to get beyond the LOS. I saw pass plays were pressure was getting through at alarming rates. I saw us feasting on the short yardage plays. I saw Trevor squeezing passes in microthin windows. I saw Trevor getting drug down, batted passes, and running away from "pocket" throughout the day, and not on plays that were waiting to develop 30 yards downfield.
The problem (the line, not the playbook) was no better this week than it was 2 or 3 weeks ago. We were very fortunate that their D was missing several key components, otherwise we probably aren't nearly as satisfied with our showing as many of us are.
(10-08-2023, 06:02 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/i/status/1711058998336839865
this was an audible... Some said we couldn't make this types of plays because our O-Line isn't good enough....... Repeat... This was an audible... Excuse it as you want... I just see it as a deep throw when people thought we couldn't do that... Apparently, we can.
And he still got blasted at the top of his drop.....
The Jags can not CONSISTENTLY make these deep shots if the line continues having bad protections.
Tired of the play calling narrative. Again, this team was a few key drops and a fumble away in week two from being a 4 - 1 football team. Enough with the [BLEEP] already. The play calls obviously work when the players execute and do their [BLEEP] jobs.
Time to move on guys. We know what the issues are. Bad offensive line play. Rust that needed to come off of Ridley. Ball security with Agnew. Some of that can be shored up. Some of that can be worked around to some extent.
(10-09-2023, 08:14 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (10-08-2023, 05:12 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]It's just nice to know that when the play calling was actually similar to last year, we were able to win a game against an elite team.
There are many that were crying that our O-Line was so bad that we couldn't drive the ball deep.
I'm sure those guys are eating a lot of eggs and bacon right now.... along with a bit of crow.
GO JAGS!!!!!
We didn't get yards in bunches (or points, for that matter) until the very late stages of the game.
When you smother a D like we did (TOP 2:1 advantage), that withering will eventually come. Keep in mind that at that point we were rocking Blake Hance and Shatley on the left. Maybe that was the lineup we needed all along, right?
That D was a MASH unit, and those still standing were hunched over gasping for air by the time the final whistle blew. The run game was miserable up until about mid-3rd early 4th.
Our D smothered their offense. (How many 3 and outs to begin the game?) Our offense was able to executed the plays called better. The play calling was like it had been all season. That said the game plan is always a bit different based on who we are playing. They also were playing without a number of their front line DB's and lost a real good player early on.
(10-09-2023, 08:36 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Tired of the play calling narrative. Again, this team was a few key drops and a fumble away in week two from being a 4 - 1 football team. Enough with the [BLEEP] already. The play calls obviously work when the players execute and do their [BLEEP] jobs.
Time to move on guys. We know what the issues are. Bad offensive line play. Rust that needed to come off of Ridley. Ball security with Agnew. Some of that can be shored up. Some of that can be worked around to some extent.
Someone once said, "Football is a game of mistakes." And we see it every week. Penalties, dropped passes, fumbles, and execution. That's half the battle. Play calling is way overrated as a determining factor.
As stated by many and myself many times. Execution has been the larger culprit than plays.
And third downs have been a huge part of this.
Yesterday they hit on third down passes more than they have previously this year and maybe as much as they ever have.
Major credit to Lawrence for standing in and taking hits to get it done.
https://twitter.com/_John_Shipley/status...59334?s=20
Bigsby has 3 carries for 8 yards
(10-09-2023, 08:53 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2023, 08:36 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Tired of the play calling narrative. Again, this team was a few key drops and a fumble away in week two from being a 4 - 1 football team. Enough with the [BLEEP] already. The play calls obviously work when the players execute and do their [BLEEP] jobs.
Time to move on guys. We know what the issues are. Bad offensive line play. Rust that needed to come off of Ridley. Ball security with Agnew. Some of that can be shored up. Some of that can be worked around to some extent.
Someone once said, "Football is a game of mistakes." And we see it every week. Penalties, dropped passes, fumbles, and execution. That's half the battle. Play calling is way overrated as a determining factor.
Football is also a game of tendencies. We came into yesterdays game having a tendency to run up the middle with Elite-EN on first downs. Yesterday, we ran more off-tack runs than I've seen all season. We also ran a few sweeps that I don't think I ever saw.
So when we ran up the middle, the defense couldn't key on the tendencies we've been doing all year long.
I mean, I'll die on this hill. I get it, that you guys think this game plan and play calling looked exactly like it did from the prior 3 games. But You're just wrong. We threw on 1st down more often in this game than we did the entire season. That alone proves how wrong you guys are.
We litterally were throwing on 1st down. That was literally not what we did at all the entire season so far. And yet, you guys are telling me this is the same play calling and game plan as every other week?
Ya'll lost your minds.
EDIT: I went back and read over the play by play for the 1st half...
Run up the middle with ETN on 1st Down: 2
Run Outside with ETN or WR on 1st Down: 4
Pass Play on 1st Down: 9
I mean, were you really watching the game and thinking the play calling and play scheme on offense was the same??!?! C'mon.
And this isn't even including all the play action passing we did, or the number of times Lawrence was actually under center versus shotgun! This game plan, offensively looked completely different than the last 4 games of this season.
(10-09-2023, 04:47 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2023, 08:53 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Someone once said, "Football is a game of mistakes." And we see it every week. Penalties, dropped passes, fumbles, and execution. That's half the battle. Play calling is way overrated as a determining factor.
Football is also a game of tendencies. We came into yesterdays game having a tendency to run up the middle with Elite-EN. Yesterday, we ran more off-tack runs than I've seen all season. We also ran a few sweeps that I don't think I ever saw.
So when we ran up the middle, the defense couldn't key on the tendencies we've been doing all year long.
I mean, I'll die on this hill. I get it, that you guys think this game plan and play calling looked exactly like it did from the prior 3 games. But You're just wrong. We threw on 1st down more often in this game than we did the entire season. That along proves how wrong you guys are.
We litterally were throwing on 1st down. That was literally not what we did at all the entire season so far. And yet, you guys are telling me this is the same play calling and game plan as ever other week?
Ya'll lost your minds.
The difference in the game was third down pass completion percentage.
Not first down passes.
You've already died on that hill.
Your take is six feet under and being eaten by worms.
Execution altered the performance of this offense on Sunday and Trevor did it the hard way. Taking lumps to complete throws on third down over and over.
The defense holding the bills to 7 points for 55 minutes helped a great deal too. The offense never had a mountain to climb.
The sweeps aren't new. The off tackle runs aren't new. You're just tripping over yourself to find ways to pin past struggles on plays and play calling.
And you're failing.
Miserably.
The Jags ran the ball on 1st down 20 times yesterday - TWENTY times.
Take away three of those that were QB runs that should have been passes if pressure didn't occur quickly and you've got 17 intended runs on first down.
Jags passed on first down 13 times. 16 if you count the three failed protections turned runs/scrambles.
That is PERFECT balance and not dissimilar from what we have seen all season.
For example - last week vs ATL we passed 11 times on first down and ran 12 times on first down.
(10-09-2023, 04:47 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2023, 08:53 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Someone once said, "Football is a game of mistakes." And we see it every week. Penalties, dropped passes, fumbles, and execution. That's half the battle. Play calling is way overrated as a determining factor.
Football is also a game of tendencies. We came into yesterdays game having a tendency to run up the middle with Elite-EN. Yesterday, we ran more off-tack runs than I've seen all season. We also ran a few sweeps that I don't think I ever saw.
So when we ran up the middle, the defense couldn't key on the tendencies we've been doing all year long.
I mean, I'll die on this hill. I get it, that you guys think this game plan and play calling looked exactly like it did from the prior 3 games. But You're just wrong. We threw on 1st down more often in this game than we did the entire season. That along proves how wrong you guys are.
We litterally were throwing on 1st down. That was literally not what we did at all the entire season so far. And yet, you guys are telling me this is the same play calling and game plan as ever other week?
Ya'll lost your minds.
EDIT: I went back and read over the play by play for the 1st half...
Run up the middle with ETN on 1st Down: 2
Run Outside with ETN or WR on 1st Down: 4
Pass Play on 1st Down: 9
I think you hit the nail on the head… I’m not gonna blame all of our woes in the Chiefs and Texans game on playcalling. There was certainly some execution errors. But our insistence on running it up the middle on early downs, and leaving ourselves with second and third and long was certainly a problem.
One thing I will add is I did not see very many bubbles screens , or designed running back screens yesterday, which we seemed to run a lot with very little to no success and weeks two and three. I am very happy we abandoned(or at least greatly reduced) those as well. When these plays fail they tend to be for negative yards or in some cases fumbles because of backwards passes. I’ve seen them used against us with success but for reason we rarely turn screen plays into positive yardage. Certainly not enough to run them as much as we did against Houston.
I’m not going to harp on playcalling anymore, but for people to think that there is no difference in our playcalling is just asinine there absolutely has been a shift. I don’t care who is calling them.