(05-14-2020, 01:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 12:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Positive results aren't instantaneous.
As I said, mine is taking 3 to 5 days.
Why should someone with a positive result, or suspected of being infected, but who isn't in actual medical distress, stay in a hospital? The most expensive place to stay in the world is an American hospital! Couldn't we figure out another place to put them? But who should figure that out? who has the authority to designate certain places as quarantine centers?
I'm going to explain this one more time. Under the order placed in NY, PA, NJ etc. Nursing homes were forced to accept COVID POSITIVE PATIENTS. meaning that they already met CDC requirements to be tested. Were tested positive, stabilized by the hospital and sent back to the NH with active infections. NHs fought this tooth and nail. And its was the government using coercive force to mandate that the NHs take the patients. In one case the commissioner from PA moved a relative because he knew the risk!!!!
Moreover we spent billions of dollars expanding hospital capacity we didnt need based on flawed models from IHME and imperial college. Dont pretend we ran out of bed space. Were laying off hospital staff and emergency field hospitals in NY CA ETC. never opened. Dont tell me we didnt have the bed space to protect the very population we destroyed the stupid economy over #nottodaybruh
In addition nursing homes are part of the healthcare system. They can set there own criteria and guidelines for which patients pose a contagious risk to other residents and make their own arrangements to partner with facilities to serve patients that need intensive care or isolation. The alternative is essentially genocide!!!
You keep trying to make this about finding a top down state based strategy while willfully ignoring that the top down state based model CAUSED the very problems its purported to solve through sheer incompetence bordering on criminal malice.
I'm not ignoring that "the top down state based model caused the very problems it's proported to solve". I acknowledge that point, in this particular case, of requiring nursing homes to allow these particular patients to return to their homes that they and their families paid for. I acknowledge that the authorities made a decision there that's questionable at best. You're trying to prove that "government is bad" but all you're proving is that these particular governments did particular bad things.
There is no force on planet earth that can make these kinds of decisions for a society, besides government. You have the resources to pull mom out of a risky nursing home? Fine, do it, apart from the government. But not everyone has those resources. Not everyone understands risks. Government has to step in and make some sort of decision for people.
(05-14-2020, 03:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 01:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to explain this one more time. Under the order placed in NY, PA, NJ etc. Nursing homes were forced to accept COVID POSITIVE PATIENTS. meaning that they already met CDC requirements to be tested. Were tested positive, stabilized by the hospital and sent back to the NH with active infections. NHs fought this tooth and nail. And its was the government using coercive force to mandate that the NHs take the patients. In one case the commissioner from PA moved a relative because he knew the risk!!!!
Moreover we spent billions of dollars expanding hospital capacity we didnt need based on flawed models from IHME and imperial college. Dont pretend we ran out of bed space. Were laying off hospital staff and emergency field hospitals in NY CA ETC. never opened. Dont tell me we didnt have the bed space to protect the very population we destroyed the stupid economy over #nottodaybruh
In addition nursing homes are part of the healthcare system. They can set there own criteria and guidelines for which patients pose a contagious risk to other residents and make their own arrangements to partner with facilities to serve patients that need intensive care or isolation. The alternative is essentially genocide!!!
You keep trying to make this about finding a top down state based strategy while willfully ignoring that the top down state based model CAUSED the very problems its purported to solve through sheer incompetence bordering on criminal malice.
I'm not ignoring that "the top down state based model caused the very problems it's proported to solve". I acknowledge that point, in this particular case, of requiring nursing homes to allow these particular patients to return to their homes that they and their families paid for. I acknowledge that the authorities made a decision there that's questionable at best. You're trying to prove that "government is bad" but all you're proving is that these particular governments did particular bad things.
There is no force on planet earth that can make these kinds of decisions for a society, besides government. You have the resources to pull mom out of a risky nursing home? Fine, do it, apart from the government. But not everyone has those resources. Not everyone understands risks. Government has to step in and make some sort of decision for people.
So is government making the decision to release people from prison/jail because of COVID-19 while putting people in the same jails because they were trying to make a living despite COVID-19 making a good decision?
(05-14-2020, 03:41 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 03:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not ignoring that "the top down state based model caused the very problems it's proported to solve". I acknowledge that point, in this particular case, of requiring nursing homes to allow these particular patients to return to their homes that they and their families paid for. I acknowledge that the authorities made a decision there that's questionable at best. You're trying to prove that "government is bad" but all you're proving is that these particular governments did particular bad things.
There is no force on planet earth that can make these kinds of decisions for a society, besides government. You have the resources to pull mom out of a risky nursing home? Fine, do it, apart from the government. But not everyone has those resources. Not everyone understands risks. Government has to step in and make some sort of decision for people.
So is government making the decision to release people from prison/jail because of COVID-19 while putting people in the same jails because they were trying to make a living despite COVID-19 making a good decision?
I'm not trying to defend any particular decision any particular government makes. I'm just saying that they are the ones who make those decisions. Obviously we shouldn't say, "the government needs to stay out of the health decisions, and all prisoners who feel like the risk is too much should go home, and those who think the risk is acceptable can stay in prison." Can you imagine? There has to be a decision in these areas, and it has to come from government.
The other thing I'm saying is, let's try to establish a framework with goals to help us make these decisions. Is the goal just managing hospital capacity? Is it minimizing new infections? What tools do we have besides just telling people to stay home?
(05-14-2020, 03:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 01:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to explain this one more time. Under the order placed in NY, PA, NJ etc. Nursing homes were forced to accept COVID POSITIVE PATIENTS. meaning that they already met CDC requirements to be tested. Were tested positive, stabilized by the hospital and sent back to the NH with active infections. NHs fought this tooth and nail. And its was the government using coercive force to mandate that the NHs take the patients. In one case the commissioner from PA moved a relative because he knew the risk!!!!
Moreover we spent billions of dollars expanding hospital capacity we didnt need based on flawed models from IHME and imperial college. Dont pretend we ran out of bed space. Were laying off hospital staff and emergency field hospitals in NY CA ETC. never opened. Dont tell me we didnt have the bed space to protect the very population we destroyed the stupid economy over #nottodaybruh
In addition nursing homes are part of the healthcare system. They can set there own criteria and guidelines for which patients pose a contagious risk to other residents and make their own arrangements to partner with facilities to serve patients that need intensive care or isolation. The alternative is essentially genocide!!!
You keep trying to make this about finding a top down state based strategy while willfully ignoring that the top down state based model CAUSED the very problems its purported to solve through sheer incompetence bordering on criminal malice.
I'm not ignoring that "the top down state based model caused the very problems it's proported to solve". I acknowledge that point, in this particular case, of requiring nursing homes to allow these particular patients to return to their homes that they and their families paid for. I acknowledge that the authorities made a decision there that's questionable at best. You're trying to prove that "government is bad" but all you're proving is that these particular governments did particular bad things.
There is no force on planet earth that can make these kinds of decisions for a society, besides government. You have the resources to pull mom out of a risky nursing home? Fine, do it, apart from the government. But not everyone has those resources. Not everyone understands risks. Government has to step in and make some sort of decision for people.
Like chimeric research on bat caronaina viruses?
How many people have to die before people realize progressivism is a bad idea?
There is a very strong case for reopening the country. I just wish we had a President who was capable of articulating it.
(05-14-2020, 04:14 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]There is a very strong case for reopening the country. I just wish we had a President who was capable of articulating it.
The president doesnt need to articulate anything. People know what their self interest is.
(05-14-2020, 05:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 04:14 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]There is a very strong case for reopening the country. I just wish we had a President who was capable of articulating it.
The president doesnt need to articulate anything. People know what their self interest is.
But if the president doesn't tell us what to do how will we know what's good for us?
(05-14-2020, 05:35 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 05:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]The president doesnt need to articulate anything. People know what their self interest is.
But if the president doesn't tell us what to do how will we know what's good for us?
*Stroud begins pacing as he waits for Trump*
(05-14-2020, 06:41 PM)lastonealive Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 05:35 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]But if the president doesn't tell us what to do how will we know what's good for us?
Just turn on Fox.
I promise you that you would be shocked how much you can learn from a Tucker Carlson monologue.
Give it a try.
But he's worked in the lamestream media for 20 years?
Fox is just light entertainment not much to learn there apart from how partisan American news networks are.
(05-14-2020, 07:44 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 03:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not ignoring that "the top down state based model caused the very problems it's proported to solve". I acknowledge that point, in this particular case, of requiring nursing homes to allow these particular patients to return to their homes that they and their families paid for. I acknowledge that the authorities made a decision there that's questionable at best. You're trying to prove that "government is bad" but all you're proving is that these particular governments did particular bad things.
There is no force on planet earth that can make these kinds of decisions for a society, besides government. You have the resources to pull mom out of a risky nursing home? Fine, do it, apart from the government. But not everyone has those resources. Not everyone understands risks. Government has to step in and make some sort of decision for people.
The nursing homes were making the decision not to accept Wuhan virus positive patients. There was no need for the government to do anything except stop using force. In this case, as well as many other cases, things work better without government guns telling people what to do.
Yes but the hospitals didn't want them either. So where do those people go? Do they get any compensation for losing their spot in the nursing home? Do they get to gather their things?
(05-14-2020, 08:30 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 07:44 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]
The nursing homes were making the decision not to accept Wuhan virus positive patients. There was no need for the government to do anything except stop using force. In this case, as well as many other cases, things work better without government guns telling people what to do.
Yes but the hospitals didn't want them either. So where do those people go? Do they get any compensation for losing their spot in the nursing home? Do they get to gather their things?
The main driver of the recession is a collapse in demand for HEALTHCARE! hospitals were forced to CANCEL ELECTIVE PROCEDURES (That normally account for close to 80% of the revenue). They're laying people off and cutting doctors pay. Why? TO MAKE ROOM FOR COVID PATIENTS!!!! Come on man....
(05-14-2020, 07:56 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 06:41 PM)lastonealive Wrote: [ -> ]Just turn on Fox.
I promise you that you would be shocked how much you can learn from a Tucker Carlson monologue.
Give it a try.
Stroudcrowd being a slave to slanted media while railing against it is one of the funnier things in the politics section
(05-14-2020, 09:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 08:30 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Yes but the hospitals didn't want them either. So where do those people go? Do they get any compensation for losing their spot in the nursing home? Do they get to gather their things?
The main driver of the recession is a collapse in demand for HEALTHCARE! hospitals were forced to CANCEL ELECTIVE PROCEDURES (That normally account for close to 80% of the revenue). They're laying people off and cutting doctors pay. Why? TO MAKE ROOM FOR COVID PATIENTS!!!! Come on man....
Gosh, if all that's true, if these hospitals are desperate for patients, but can only take Covid patients, why were they kicking the covid patients out, thus making problems for nursing homes?
(05-14-2020, 09:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 09:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]The main driver of the recession is a collapse in demand for HEALTHCARE! hospitals were forced to CANCEL ELECTIVE PROCEDURES (That normally account for close to 80% of the revenue). They're laying people off and cutting doctors pay. Why? TO MAKE ROOM FOR COVID PATIENTS!!!! Come on man....
Gosh, if all that's true, if these hospitals are desperate for patients, but can only take Covid patients, why were they kicking the covid patients out, thus making problems for nursing homes?
CMS admission guidelines and the fear of being overwhelmed by the surge.
(05-14-2020, 11:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 09:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Gosh, if all that's true, if these hospitals are desperate for patients, but can only take Covid patients, why were they kicking the covid patients out, thus making problems for nursing homes?
CMS admission guidelines and the fear of being overwhelmed by the surge.
Now I was not expecting that answer. CMS is a federal agency, and if they made a mistake, that's on Trump.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CMS was not saying, "you should kick these people out," instead they were saying, "you won't be reimbursed unless these people have severe symptoms", right?
Now if that's true, what does that say about the role of private hospitals in this country? Don't we keep most hospitals privates so they will compete with each other to see who can go above and beyond? yet every time we examine the situation, they seem to only be doing the bare minimum that will be reimbursed by the government...
(05-14-2020, 05:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 04:14 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]There is a very strong case for reopening the country. I just wish we had a President who was capable of articulating it.
The president doesnt need to articulate anything. People know what their self interest is.
I'm asking for effective leadership. Not flailing around, scapegoating, name calling, misleading, lying, and polarizing. He's either too stupid, or too inarticulate, to explain why he's adopted the position he's adopted in regards to reopening the economy.
There's a very strong case for reopening the economy, even if it causes more deaths. But he can't seem to explain it to the American people. My theory is, the guy is just not cut out to be President. He's unintelligent and hypersensitive.
Just admit that a lot of people are going to die from reopening the economy, and explain why the alternative is much worse. Just lead. That's all I'm asking.
(05-15-2020, 08:23 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (05-14-2020, 05:31 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]The president doesnt need to articulate anything. People know what their self interest is.
I'm asking for effective leadership. Not flailing around, scapegoating, name calling, misleading, lying, and polarizing. He's either too stupid, or too inarticulate, to explain why he's adopted the position he's adopted in regards to reopening the economy.
There's a very strong case for reopening the economy, even if it causes more deaths. But he can't seem to explain it to the American people. My theory is, the guy is just not cut out to be President. He's unintelligent and hypersensitive.
Just admit that a lot of people are going to die from reopening the economy, and explain why the alternative is much worse. Just lead. That's all I'm asking.
Who gave you that idea, Chuck Schumer?