(04-08-2020, 02:28 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]The one thing that doesn't pass the smell test is why we've chosen to isolate the whole population rather than just families with people over the age of 55 and high risk individuals. I don't get it. Yes, a few people would still die that way, but it wouldn't be a large number compared to the population. I am just not buying that we shut down our whole economy unless this thing could have potentially long term effects. I mean, I am really at a loss. Where are the antibody tests? This should be everyone's concern moving forward, regardless of political affiliation.
Because we're being lead by a group of blue check mark leftists who refuse to acknowledge that nature is asymmetrical. A big reason for the data being so far off is that they over weighted places like italy and New York and falsely extrapolated them to places like Iowa Texas Arizona Fl etc. This is further definitive proof that central planning ALWAYS FAILS. A plan designed to prevent healthcare overruns in NY and NJ is leading to significant layoffs of healthcare personnel across the entire country.
Also, no one has stopped to think if this virus is really as contagious as people think. We keep hearing the 3 coefficient for geometric spread. That's how we got the doomsday projections from imperial, chris murray etc. Gavin Newsome actually sent a letter to POTUS estimating that 25 plus million people would be infected by now. A lot of that initial calculation was based on the idea that the virus magically showed up in mid january and all current infections stemmed from THAT seeding. In reality the virus was first identified in NOV in China but probably existed before then. Also people were moving back and forth from WUHAN with the west for months before we officially identified it. Some 700k plus people traveled to and from china and the us between nov and the travel ban. Another 40k after the travel ban.
Dr. Birx has alluded to the fact that for NY to have the level of viral penetration that it does (40% ish positive test rate) the virus would have had to have been there for weeks, implying before the official january timeframe. Before we officially identified the virus. Pneumonia deaths were pushing past the epidemic threshold. Years from now this whole thing will look a lot different.
(04-08-2020, 02:56 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (04-08-2020, 02:45 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]We won't have a next time. I think a lot of officials are going to use this pandemic as it's ultimate battle cry and plea to permanently alter our way of life. Especially if this Microsoft weasel below keeps pushing his agenda. I used to think people were crazy when they were chasing down Ted Turner and Bill Gates at non-company based events and pestering them about global population control and vaccines.
These rich pricks aren't just sitting around and taking it all in. They really are all out there trying to effect everything we do on a global scale. Some of the interviews and clips I have seen with some of their views and "predictions" about these pandemics happening and the need to clip the population down to a reasonable level (essentially cull the herd) such as Ted Turner's 500 million (92% reduction needed based on the global population) is fascinating and frightening all at once.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xPyx3qgq5jAmMo/giphy.gif)
They can’t alter human behavior and instinct. IF they create any noticeable difference, it will be brief. In a year this will be a distant memory except for the hardship it caused and the determination to never allow it to be repeated. If anything, this will harden people’s skepticism towards the “experts”.
They already did over a virus that may kill less the 50,000 in the US. There are plenty of leftists that are all ready to give it up and now that the government was able to shut everything down so easily, you better believe they will do it again.
But you would also have to have some way to calculate the lives saved by stay-at-home compared to business as usual. Probably less traffic deaths, less muggings, etc. Hard to quantify all the effects.
(04-08-2020, 08:05 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-08-2020, 12:47 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You'll scare the children.
That's a good point. Here's an analysis that makes that point. Flattening the curve doesn't save lives, except if/when hospitals run out of room. That would be a small percentage of deaths in any case, and there's no guarantee of that even happening.
Meanwhile, people are dying from the lockdown, directly in the case of suicides and people who were forced to delay "elective" procedures that were necessary after all, along with possible eventual deaths from the economic disaster, and increased substance abuse and domestic violence due to being house bound.
One can make a good argument that the monetary cost is way more than the values of lives saved. But even if you want to claim that even one life saved is worth an infinite cost, the lockdown might actually be increasing the overall number of deaths.
There is also evidence in that analysis that the lockdown does not even flatten the curve, except for maybe school closures.
Media: Dr. Faucci, did you read the 1000 person study on HCQ treating COVID PATIENTS?
Faucci: That's anecdotal
Media: Dr. Faucci, how much of a difference is your great depression having?
Faucci: I can tell u that we are definately having an impact.
I can't quantify how much of an impact, but we are having an impact.
I'd just like to add, the debate over HCQ has been frankly disgusting.
Either this is a war or it isn't. There are people who are literally advocating (Zeke Emmanuel helped design Obamacare and us currently advising Joe Biden) putting the country into a state of depression until we find a vaccine ( nearly 17 years since Sars Cov1 & no vaccine). That would permanently destroy anything resembling the economy we grew up in. Even tailored theraputics would take close to a year to come to market. We have hundreds of anti-virals and anti-inflammatories. We should be in a Manhattan project level of experimentation to find the best treatment protocol within our pre-existing arsenal of pharmaceutical options to SAVE LIVES!!!
Now we have the head of the AMA coming out and talking about how unsafe, dangerous & reckless it is to prescribe this drug. They dont mention that right now we treat 300k patients for auto immune disease with the med as is in this country. So it's too dangerous to take for 5 days to stop ur lungs from filling with fluid but it's okay to take as an everyday regimen for achy joints? You have media articles complaining about safety in one sentence and then potential scarcity for loopus patients in the next!
Does anyone know what the current survival rate is for covid 19 patients is once their intubated? We threatened to defacto nationalize industry if they didnt help us build 100k of them, wouldn't it be pertinent to know their success rate?
I'm not sure what is more bizarre, your desperation to lower the numbers or your ignoring the scientific experts on a particular drug.
I thought this was just a bad cold? Probably don't need any drugs.
(04-09-2020, 01:38 AM)lastonealive Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what is more bizarre, your desperation to lower the numbers or your ignoring the scientific experts on a particular drug.
I thought this was just a bad cold? Probably don't need any drugs.
You mean the reumatologists who prescribe it everyday?
I mean the world famous epidemiologists who wrote the French study?
Those experts?
When the antibody tests come back we'll know more.
And "desperation to lower the numbers?" Yeh I'm desperate to save lives. I'm not sorry for that. I'm desperate to save businesses and avoid a great depression.
(04-09-2020, 04:46 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]USA capitalism sucks as much [BLEEP] as China socialism.
USA health care is just embarrassing.
The whole USA political system needs a hard reset.
.... ok
(04-09-2020, 04:46 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]USA capitalism sucks as much [BLEEP] as China socialism.
USA health care is just embarrassing.
The whole USA political system needs a hard reset.
Capitalism does not suck. Capitalism is what gives us our present level of prosperity and all that goes with it- smart phones, computers, good TV shows, nice cars, food to eat, jobs where we can earn money, and not incidentally, a health care system.
Secondly, China is not a socialist country. They used to be communist, but they are not communist any more, even though they might claim to be. They are a capitalist country with an authoritarian government and all the corruption that comes when you merge capitalism with authoritarianism. "Go out and make all the money you can, but be sure to pay off your local party members."
"The whole USA political system needs a hard reset." <Now there is a statement anyone can endorse. Trouble is, we all have a different idea of what kind of reset we need, don't we?
(04-09-2020, 06:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 04:46 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]USA capitalism sucks as much [BLEEP] as China socialism.
USA health care is just embarrassing.
The whole USA political system needs a hard reset.
Capitalism does not suck. Capitalism is what gives us our present level of prosperity and all that goes with it- smart phones, computers, good TV shows, nice cars, food to eat, jobs where we can earn money, and not incidentally, a health care system.
Secondly, China is not a socialist country. They used to be communist, but they are not communist any more, even though they might claim to be. They are a capitalist country with an authoritarian government and all the corruption that comes when you merge capitalism with authoritarianism. "Go out and make all the money you can, but be sure to pay off your local party members."
"The whole USA political system needs a hard reset." <Now there is a statement anyone can endorse. Trouble is, we all have a different idea of what kind of reset we need, don't we?
I wonder how long that system will continue to operate? China is not a closed country so its citizens see and experience freedom and democracy in their travels. As the military is slowly replenished with younger generations, how much longer can the CCP leverage them against their own people. China will be interesting to watch over the next decade.
(04-09-2020, 01:38 AM)lastonealive Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what is more bizarre, your desperation to lower the numbers or your ignoring the scientific experts on a particular drug.
I thought this was just a bad cold? Probably don't need any drugs.
For 95% of cases it's a bad cold or less. For 5% its severe and anti-virals might help them have fewer days in critical care, an important factor in managing census. Since only ~14% of patients who get intubated are surviving we should be pursuing any potential treatment to prevent them from reaching that point. But I'm sure you dont take any meds when you feel bad or have an infection so your snark is based in your valid smug superiority to most people who do.
(04-09-2020, 07:23 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 06:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Capitalism does not suck. Capitalism is what gives us our present level of prosperity and all that goes with it- smart phones, computers, good TV shows, nice cars, food to eat, jobs where we can earn money, and not incidentally, a health care system.
Secondly, China is not a socialist country. They used to be communist, but they are not communist any more, even though they might claim to be. They are a capitalist country with an authoritarian government and all the corruption that comes when you merge capitalism with authoritarianism. "Go out and make all the money you can, but be sure to pay off your local party members."
"The whole USA political system needs a hard reset." <Now there is a statement anyone can endorse. Trouble is, we all have a different idea of what kind of reset we need, don't we?
I wonder how long that system will continue to operate? China is not a closed country so its citizens see and experience freedom and democracy in their travels. As the military is slowly replenished with younger generations, how much longer can the CCP leverage them against their own people. China will be interesting to watch over the next decade.
Great question. There are millions of Chinese tourists out there, all over the world. On the other hand, that government has an Orwellian level of control over everyone in that country. They know everything you do, everything you buy, they know where you are, they track your cell phone, they have cameras everywhere and they track you through facial recognition, they know what websites you go to, and they have an army of people controlling what websites are available. They give every citizen a "social score," based on behavior, things you do, things you say, and link it to a system of rewards. George Orwell meets big data.
I saw a BBC documentary where a westerner who was in China for a tech job said he had jaywalked and they had used facial recognition to fine him and they had deducted the money from his bank account by the time he had finished crossing the street.
I wonder if the Chinese are like a lot of people, who would trade freedom for security. We've done it ourselves to a certain extent. And every time something goes wrong in the Western world, the Chinese government is telling their people, "See, this is why our system is so much better than theirs."
And don't underestimate the resentment the Chinese government can drum up against the Western world for the way the China was colonized a few hundred years ago. The British even fought a war to maintain the opium trade the Chinese government was trying to stamp out. Imagine if Mexico was more powerful than the United States and they fought a war with us to maintain their drug business in the United States. The Chinese even appealed directly to Queen Victoria on moral grounds and she ignored them.
(04-09-2020, 06:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 04:46 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]USA capitalism sucks as much [BLEEP] as China socialism.
USA health care is just embarrassing.
The whole USA political system needs a hard reset.
Capitalism does not suck. Capitalism is what gives us our present level of prosperity and all that goes with it- smart phones, computers, good TV shows, nice cars, food to eat, jobs where we can earn money, and not incidentally, a health care system.
Secondly, China is not a socialist country. They used to be communist, but they are not communist any more, even though they might claim to be. They are a capitalist country with an authoritarian government and all the corruption that comes when you merge capitalism with authoritarianism. "Go out and make all the money you can, but be sure to pay off your local party members."
"The whole USA political system needs a hard reset." <Now there is a statement anyone can endorse. Trouble is, we all have a different idea of what kind of reset we need, don't we?
Capitalism contributes to the health care system, sure, and it always did. But, historically speaking, in this country, most of the players in health care started out as either government entities or religious charity projects.
Part of the disorganization and disarray that we see today is that most of these entities have been sold off to the highest bidder, and operate on a for-profit basis, even though they still tell the tax man that they are not for profit.
Aspects of health care can and should operate for profit.
But most of it can not be for profit.
Welp, in my county the number of known C19 cases went from 20 to 51 in one day. At local nursing home/rehab facility tested everyone and so far the numbers are 26 residents and 5 employees. That number is sure to rise since not all test results are back. There have also been 2 deaths in the county. The grandmother of a friend is one of those residents who tested positive.
(04-09-2020, 09:15 AM)Byron LeftTown Wrote: [ -> ]Intubation and ventilation is the WRONG treatment. Trump should cancel the order for 100,000 vents.
It is hypoxia, not pneumonia that is killing people.
https://web.archive.org/web/202004050614...182386efcb
Intubation is not necessarily wrong, just should be a last resort situation. I've been researching this illness since the beginning and following what treatment has worked and not. This is not your typical viral. It is more of a passenger virus which is why folks put on anti-inflammatories and antibiotics at the onset of cough get over this quickly. Let me reiterate...Cough and dizziness are or should be the symptoms to drive treatment. Couple of thoughts I've posted elsewhere...
- Anyone ever heard of Cytokine Release Syndrome? Sure sounds like the symptoms of COVID-19 ICU patients. Maybe a strong anti-inflammatory like an arthritis med to battle back and stay off respirators? Just thinking out loud.
-So if a majority of ICU patients present with shortness of breath and low oxygen levels with no signs of pneumonia, does that prove my theory? Furthermore, a majority that went on ventilators early cleared in 72 hours with still, no pneumonia. The deaths have been from those that presented too late with signs of pneumonia in combination with what I think is CRS. Explains why Hydroxychloroquine seems to work (anti-inflammatory properties) early. Would a stronger med like Tocilizumab be better?
(04-09-2020, 08:47 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 06:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Capitalism does not suck. Capitalism is what gives us our present level of prosperity and all that goes with it- smart phones, computers, good TV shows, nice cars, food to eat, jobs where we can earn money, and not incidentally, a health care system.
Secondly, China is not a socialist country. They used to be communist, but they are not communist any more, even though they might claim to be. They are a capitalist country with an authoritarian government and all the corruption that comes when you merge capitalism with authoritarianism. "Go out and make all the money you can, but be sure to pay off your local party members."
"The whole USA political system needs a hard reset." <Now there is a statement anyone can endorse. Trouble is, we all have a different idea of what kind of reset we need, don't we?
Capitalism contributes to the health care system, sure, and it always did. But, historically speaking, in this country, most of the players in health care started out as either government entities or religious charity projects.
Part of the disorganization and disarray that we see today is that most of these entities have been sold off to the highest bidder, and operate on a for-profit basis, even though they still tell the tax man that they are not for profit.
Aspects of health care can and should operate for profit.
But most of it can not be for profit.
Spoken like a true marxist.