(09-15-2021, 06:30 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Tried posting this twice but I will give it one more shot. This entire conversation is over as far as I am concerned. When the figurehead you in charge mandates vaccines for all and then exempts certain government departments then all credibility has been lost.
(09-15-2021, 06:36 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 06:30 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Tried posting this twice but I will give it one more shot. This entire conversation is over as far as I am concerned. When the figurehead you in charge mandates vaccines for all and then exempts certain government departments then all credibility has been lost.
This administration has completely botched something Trump handed them on a silver plate.
(09-15-2021, 06:44 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yes but you have zero ground to stand now. You cannot mandate companies with more than 100 employees get the vaccine and then exempt the USPS. If anyone attempts to defend this bs in any way any shape or any form then you have no conscience. This is no longer about science. It is no longer about what is best for the country it is nothing but political.(09-15-2021, 06:36 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]This administration has completely botched something Trump handed them on a silver plate.
The involvement of politics by both sides created this [BLEEP] up situation.
(09-15-2021, 06:54 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 06:44 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The involvement of politics by both sides created this [BLEEP] up situation.Yes but you have zero ground to stand now. You cannot mandate companies with more than 100 employees get the vaccine and then exempt the USPS. If anyone attempts to defend this bs in any way any shape or any form then you have no conscience. This is no longer about science. It is no longer about what is best for the country it is nothing but political.
(09-15-2021, 06:55 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 06:54 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Yes but you have zero ground to stand now. You cannot mandate companies with more than 100 employees get the vaccine and then exempt the USPS. If anyone attempts to defend this bs in any way any shape or any form then you have no conscience. This is no longer about science. It is no longer about what is best for the country it is nothing but political.
I don't agree with Biden's mandate.
(09-15-2021, 07:04 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 07:03 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]You do understand this negates everything discussed, every position and anything the government taken stance for the past 2 years give or take.
I'm sorry, what?
(09-15-2021, 07:08 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 07:04 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, what?
Sorry I am pissed off! This administration has strong armed my employer to force me to get this vaccine in order to keep my job then exempts certain government entities from his mandate.
(09-15-2021, 07:08 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]FYI, there is zero info from the mandate. No coverage of anything, no rules, no scheduled osha meetings to give companies the heads up on when things will happen, nothing. That all may change but right now it may go the way of a lot of other things they have said and done nothing.(09-15-2021, 07:04 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, what?
Sorry I am pissed off! This administration has strong armed my employer to force me to get this vaccine in order to keep my job then exempts certain government entities from his mandate.
I don’t care which side of the fence you sit on with respect to the vaccine but this clearly says the vaccine is utter bs.
(09-16-2021, 07:29 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]"Vaccines are required for people at a business with more than 100 people. It is not a requirement for migrants at the border. Why?"
Psaki: "That's correct"
WHAT?!?! https://t.co/t65bi0YjPz
One may initially think this is doctored video, but sadly it isn't.
(09-16-2021, 08:59 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ](09-16-2021, 07:29 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]"Vaccines are required for people at a business with more than 100 people. It is not a requirement for migrants at the border. Why?"
Psaki: "That's correct"
WHAT?!?! https://t.co/t65bi0YjPz
One may initially think this is doctored video, but sadly it isn't.
Like I said. Redheads are either smokin' hawt or ugly as a bag of excrement. She ain't smokin' hawt.
(09-16-2021, 12:38 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 07:08 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry I am pissed off! This administration has strong armed my employer to force me to get this vaccine in order to keep my job then exempts certain government entities from his mandate.FYI, there is zero info from the mandate. No coverage of anything, no rules, no scheduled osha meetings to give companies the heads up on when things will happen, nothing. That all may change but right now it may go the way of a lot of other things they have said and done nothing.
I don’t care which side of the fence you sit on with respect to the vaccine but this clearly says the vaccine is utter bs.
I would tell your company to hold off as there are no rules in place. Talk to a lawyer and start documenting everything. As much as some people claim I don't know what I'm talking about, you cannot be forced or coerced into taking a EUA vaccine and there are no LEGALLY approved Corminaty shorts available in the US.
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(09-16-2021, 10:25 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ](09-15-2021, 07:18 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I have been right about almost everything I've posted here. Let's recap:
The vaccine does not provide sterilizing immunity. You know this. All of the data shows this. The vaccinated share the same viral load as the unvaccinated for several days. The vaccinated still get sick, even if they don't know it, and can spread it to other people. The virus can still mutate in vaccinated hosts. The virus is found in many animals, and can mutate and spread to humans. A significant portion of the world is still unvaccinated. You aren't protecting [BLEEP], except for the risk someone is assuming upon themselves for catching Covid. That's it. You know it. You're only defense of this mandate is that it will protect the unvaccinated, uninfected employees from getting themselves sick. That's not your [BLEEP] job.
Recovered patients have a much greater immunity than the vaccinated. You have a .09% of being HOSPITALIZED if you're under 50 and get Covid (that number gets much smaller if you take away mild cases). You have a .001% chance of DYING if you are under 50 and get Covid. The CDC itself has said that 75-80% of people in American have either had covid or been vaccinated. Which means many of the people you are putting out on their [BLEEP] have likely been already exposed to it. You have absolutely ZERO justification for having convalescent patients get the vaccine. The absolute risk reduction offered by getting the vaccine at this point is so close to zero, I can't believe we are even having this discussion.
You were perfectly fine with having these very same people come in when the risk was completely unknown to them without being vaccinated. Yet, you, in the name of "SCIENCE" are going to terminate all employees who don't have the vaccination. [BLEEP] off with that [BLEEP]. I don't care what precedent has been set. People have the right to observe a novel vaccine for more than one year. In the era of absolute abuse of government and corporate greed, I am more mad at you for being this willfully ignorant than I am at these other morons who blindly follow the tripe. Grow some balls and stop justifying this stupid position.
P.S. Sorry for the harsh tone. I like you, but I meant everything I said. I am SO disappointed in our medical community. I think they are a bunch of cowards.
You have the benefit of distance and that permits you the academic view. My perspective is the health and safety of the hundreds of people who work for me and I will not compromise the most effective tool we have to keep people from dying from Covid. You are absolutely right that people have the right to observe the pandemic and the vaccine and decide for themselves what they want to do. What they may not do is retain their employment if they refuse to comply with the legal and authorized condition of employment the vaccine represents. You call me "willfully ignorant" while members of my staff are out this weekend burying their relatives. You aren't willfully ignorant, you're actually very astute, you just want reasons why those deaths don't matter to your greater position. I get that you don't care about that, because you have to be technically right, but the fact remains that most of the people who have died from this in the last 8 months have died because they refused the vaccine. The overwhelming majority of people consuming resources in our hospitals would not be there if they had taken the shot. Truly to you a million deaths is just a statistic in every sense of the phrase. Sorry for the harsh tone, but it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't have the impact in their face every day to sit over there and quote research publications about why those people who died don't really matter. Go work the ER for a weekend and let me know how you feel about it then, they are still asking for volunteers in downtown Jacksonville.
Edit: This should probably continue in the Covid thread though, no need to have this conversation all over the place.
(09-16-2021, 10:04 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]That lawsuit wasn't a good one and they overshot it. At the same time the judge did not follow the law. There are cases being filed, potentially class action lawsuits, etc. Anyone firing people, not allowing exemptions or not granting exemptions for religious reasons per the laws, will lose in courts. You have to start at state laws as the state controls this.(09-16-2021, 12:38 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]FYI, there is zero info from the mandate. No coverage of anything, no rules, no scheduled osha meetings to give companies the heads up on when things will happen, nothing. That all may change but right now it may go the way of a lot of other things they have said and done nothing.
I would tell your company to hold off as there are no rules in place. Talk to a lawyer and start documenting everything. As much as some people claim I don't know what I'm talking about, you cannot be forced or coerced into taking a EUA vaccine and there are no LEGALLY approved Corminaty shorts available in the US.
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Here's a link to an article discussion the Houston Methodist verdict. As you'll see your position on the EUA is incorrect, but here's the bullet points of the judge's ruling in case you don't want to read why you're wrong:
[font='open sans', serif][b]How did the judge hold?[/b][/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The federal government can release an emergency countermeasure like the COVID vaccine. The law that governs this does not apply to a private employer.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]This was not a human trial. No such had been applied for or approved by an IRB. This was just hospital staff under a mandate to make the facility safer.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The Nuremberg Code does not apply to private actors and the analogy to atrocities was [i]“reprehensible”.[/i][/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]There was no coercion. This was just a directive that an employee may be required to follow. The plaintiff(s) were free to reject it and to seek work elsewhere.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The wrongful termination claim failed as a matter of law.[/font]
The case will probably move to 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, but the expectation is that is will also be dismissed there as well since the full approval for all the shots will have occurred before the case can be heard. I'm sure you'll insist on that debunked "it's not the same shot" position that Robert Malone threw out there, but that also doesn't hold water since he publicly recanted his mistaken position. In short, there's not really anything left to this except the foot stamping of those contrarians who keep passing around all this bad information.
(09-16-2021, 11:39 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Your link didn't work, but going to continue our conversation from the other thread:
(09-16-2021, 10:25 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You have the benefit of distance and that permits you the academic view. My perspective is the health and safety of the hundreds of people who work for me and I will not compromise the most effective tool we have to keep people from dying from Covid. You are absolutely right that people have the right to observe the pandemic and the vaccine and decide for themselves what they want to do. What they may not do is retain their employment if they refuse to comply with the legal and authorized condition of employment the vaccine represents. You call me "willfully ignorant" while members of my staff are out this weekend burying their relatives. You aren't willfully ignorant, you're actually very astute, you just want reasons why those deaths don't matter to your greater position. I get that you don't care about that, because you have to be technically right, but the fact remains that most of the people who have died from this in the last 8 months have died because they refused the vaccine. The overwhelming majority of people consuming resources in our hospitals would not be there if they had taken the shot. Truly to you a million deaths is just a statistic in every sense of the phrase. Sorry for the harsh tone, but it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't have the impact in their face every day to sit over there and quote research publications about why those people who died don't really matter. Go work the ER for a weekend and let me know how you feel about it then, they are still asking for volunteers in downtown Jacksonville.
Edit: This should probably continue in the Covid thread though, no need to have this conversation all over the place.
First of all, I want to say that your harsh tone is really much kinder than my harsh tone, so you probably don't need to apologize for it moving forward.
Now that that's out of the way, I get that people are dying, and you're right.... I don't care. I can assure you that if I worked in the ER for the week, I would not change my position. The main people that are dying are the very elderly and the unhealthy. We have known that for a while now.
Look, I have said it before, and I will say it again. I think the elderly and unhealthy should take the vaccine. I've been clear about that. It could save their lives. However, every time I whittle this argument down to it's core, which is that the vaccine should not be a global rollout, we end up talking about hospitalizations and deaths again. It's a vicious circle. You want to solve the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths? Focus on getting the elderly and unhealthy vaccinated. If that doesn't happen, the deaths will be high, but until until those people die off or get natural immunity. It's how it's worked since the beginning of time.
I don't know what the age is of the relatives your staff is burying, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they were pretty old or pretty unhealthy. But, since we are going to set this precedent, I have to ask: Are you restricting sugar when an employee has to bury a relative due to diabetes? Are you mandating exercise every time a person has to bury their relatives for heart disease? Don't you care about those employees just the same? What else can you regulate to protect their health?
You wax on about watching people suffer every day, but give no thought of the suffering that might be caused by them having to choose their job or a vaccine. What about the suffering caused by having a shortage of nurses? What about the damage that is being done to the medical community for failing to implement logical policies? For example, where my wife works, you don't even have to get tested if you're vaccinated and have people in your household that are sick with Covid. What happens when the vaccinated or unvaccinated get sick and die via hospital exposure? Are they going to trust the hospitals more or less? What about the people who will inevitably lose loved ones to staff shortages? Are they going to value your take it or leave it mandate?
I have used this analogy before, but generals have to make tough calls. I fully expect the front line workers to want to save all of their patients. I expect the administration to do what's best for the most people. You're a general. I just don't think you are making the best long term decision. I think you are being emotional and reactionary. Why would you fire someone under 50 who is healthy for a .09% chance they get admitted to the hospital? Or a .001% they die? Is that really the level of micromanagement you want to get down to as a hospital administrator? Do you really think that's better than losing a fraction of your highly trained workforce?
If I could actually find the numbers, I think we'd be shocked at how little this vaccine is actually contributing to the safety of healthy people under 50. However, that's just not available for some stupid reason. Fauci says on national TV that he needs to talk with his people to see why people with natural immunity need to take the vaccine. This is MONTHS after I, the lay person, has been saying that on this message board. You don't think he's never thought of that before? The CDC is making bad policy, which means the government is making bad policy, which means the hospitals are making policy. These mandates that force people to choose are unamerican and unscientific.
(09-16-2021, 11:43 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ](09-16-2021, 10:04 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a link to an article discussion the Houston Methodist verdict. As you'll see your position on the EUA is incorrect, but here's the bullet points of the judge's ruling in case you don't want to read why you're wrong:That lawsuit wasn't a good one and they overshot it. At the same time the judge did not follow the law. There are cases being filed, potentially class action lawsuits, etc. Anyone firing people, not allowing exemptions or not granting exemptions for religious reasons per the laws, will lose in courts. You have to start at state laws as the state controls this.
[font='open sans', serif][b]How did the judge hold?[/b][/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The federal government can release an emergency countermeasure like the COVID vaccine. The law that governs this does not apply to a private employer.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]This was not a human trial. No such had been applied for or approved by an IRB. This was just hospital staff under a mandate to make the facility safer.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The Nuremberg Code does not apply to private actors and the analogy to atrocities was [i]“reprehensible”.[/i][/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]There was no coercion. This was just a directive that an employee may be required to follow. The plaintiff(s) were free to reject it and to seek work elsewhere.[/font]
- [font='open sans', serif]The wrongful termination claim failed as a matter of law.[/font]
The case will probably move to 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, but the expectation is that is will also be dismissed there as well since the full approval for all the shots will have occurred before the case can be heard. I'm sure you'll insist on that debunked "it's not the same shot" position that Robert Malone threw out there, but that also doesn't hold water since he publicly recanted his mistaken position. In short, there's not really anything left to this except the foot stamping of those contrarians who keep passing around all this bad information.
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Whistle-blowers are shooting the hospitals and government numbers down. Majority of the issues are created to scare you into compliance.
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